2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe Level of Hillary Clinton HATRED in This Country Is Appalling.
Fair Warning: I support Bernie, but respect Hillary Clinton even still.
HOWEVER.
There is a HUGE AMOUNT of "Hillary Hate" that comes not only from the Republicans (who can be outright rabid up to and including foaming at the mouth at mention of her), but also from fellow Democrats.
She was an excellent partner with her husband while he was in the White House. They both made political missteps on occasion or three, but they were better than their Republican predecessors.
She is SMART. She has the ear of powerful people worldwide from both her role as a former First Lady and Secretary of State. She is a successful woman, and has many accomplishments to her credit, including still being able to stand tall after constant attack FOR YEARS by her enemies.
And that is one of the problems with her as an electable candidate:
She Has Enemies. Lots and lots and LOTS of enemies, and not just on the Republican side of the fence. As a bonus, her HUSBAND has more than a few, too. (Anyone else remember reading some of the sickening comments from the Republican side when Bill underwent heart surgery during the Bush years?)
You don't even have to say "Hillary" if you want to increase the blood pressure of a Republican - just say "Clinton" and holiday dinner with the relatives can get all kinds of crazy. To be fair, there are many of us, myself included, who get that way at the sound of the name "Bush" (I despise that weasel who is responsible for the unnecessary deaths of so so many!) so maybe it is just a "thing" some of us humans do.
But the anger / hatred at even the name Hillary Clinton is held so high that nothing she does will EVER be enough to create a "we are all in this together/trust me to lead us out of whatever the mess du jour" mentality.
I will vote for a Democrat before I vote for any of the whackadoodles being advanced by the Republicans. As I said, my preference is Bernie. I don't think Hillary is either electable or stands a snowball's chance of getting a chance to actually govern with any hope of success.
I am not a politician. I could be wrong.
But I hope the political powers that be understand that the passion Hillary invokes in a large portion of this country is not ... Positive.
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Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)She's a grown woman. She can take it.
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)not do things that will blow up in her face. The email thing is self inflicted. She didn't want to use two devices? WTH. I use a phone and an handheld for everything and you can do two different things, call and email on one. I don't understand her explanation. She can't be excluded from the equation. Some of it is rotten shit but she is the architect of some of it herself.
stopbush
(24,396 posts)She's caught in the middle of a fight between the CIA and State over who gets to say what where.
Do you know that many of the e-mails that the CIA are post-fact labeling "classified" were nothing more than stories that ran in the NY Times that were forwarded among the staff at State? Now, the CIA is asserting that even though the information appeared in the very public NYT FIRST, they consider the information to be of a classified nature. So they're saying that Hillary and the State department were forwarding classified information on the non-government servers.
What's wrong with this "scandal?"
PonyUp
(1,680 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)sure that does not happen.
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)
peggysue2
(10,832 posts)And neither dreams or magical thinking have anything to do with it. Hillary Clinton is the one viable, electable candidate, the nominee who can bring it against the Republicans. Why else would Karl Rove be funding pro-Bernie ads?
Answer: it's not out of Bernie-love.
Hillary 2016
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)Welcome!!!!! 
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I voted a straight Democratic ticket for the first time in my life in 1996 right after the "impeachment" of Bill Clinton. I was appalled that a political circus had started over ... Well, most of us know that story.
I am still shocked President Obama has managed to nearly complete his term without similar created problems.
I am confident the "hearings" on fill-in-the-blank would start before inauguration (in the unlikely event she was elected).
tularetom
(23,664 posts)He's squeaky clean and they couldn't pin anything on him, although they sure tried.
Clinton on the other hand, spent his entire political career engaging in risky behavior, both personally, legally and politically. There has always been a slight odor of scandal about him, even before his first national election. He was a big fat juicy target for his political opponents and they took maximum advantage of it.
What annoys me is a lot of good Democrats went to bat for him during his self inflicted problem with intern escapades. While we were all sticking up for him, he was signing all kinds of crappy legislation which set the country up for the recession of 2007-08 and contributed to the ongoing decline in the economic fortunes of middle class Americans.
The country cannot afford a repeat of this sorry chapter in our history and we can avoid it by not choosing a chief executive with any connection at all to the loathsome Clinton.
Glamrock
(11,802 posts)The question is whether she can get elected.
She has a negative favorability with the American people. Like the author of the thread, I'll vote for her if she wins the popular vote. But I don't have much faith she'll win. If she does, she'll win four years of hearings, investigations, and lawyers...
Considering this has been National Take a Crap on Bernie day from Camp Clinton, perhaps this would be more applicable at another time.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)being played by the Clinton camp. I am not talking about "primary fever" - I am talking about an established national reputation from someone who is seen as divisive.
Does that make any sense?
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)and I don't disagree necessarily with your premise. I just feel like she makes her bed. Lies in it. Gets up and tries a different bed and repeats far too often.
Rec'd regardless
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)legislation she sends them?
They've shown in how many Benghazi hearings what her presidency would look like, a never ending witch hunt.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)That will never happen.
cali
(114,904 posts)Clintons have been in our faces for 30+ years over something...I believe Clinton burnout is real.
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)sorry, I don't care what she did in the '60s or '70s or '80s. Even what she did in the WJC & BHO administrations or the Senate pale in comparison to what she did in collusion with Wall Street and other corporate bastards who are screwing 95% of Americans every day.
She knew what she was doing, but she thought we were too damn stupid or gullible to question her motives.
Sorry. She's a shill for forces that are trying impoverish me and most other Americans for their own gain, financially and politically. Some say she's at least better than anyone the GOP will nominate, and on policy, she may be ... Marginally. But at least the GOP is pretty open about wanting to gut government services and sell out to the low bidder (or whomever is greasing their palm).
Hillary tries to convince us she's one of us, and that she'll fight for us. Really? She's going to side with little old me, and not her benefactors at Goldman Sachs? I'll believe it when I see it.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Wanda Wall Street is OWNED by and BEHOLDEN to the banksters and the MIC.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)The whole process is becoming more sickening by the hour.
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)While some people can actually explain why they don't like her in complete sentences and with thoughtful reasons, the other group is frothing at the mouth and it appears to be visceral. I tend to avoid the the second group....they are scary.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)But I hate dishonesty and particularly the slimy distortions she, Bill, her campaign & surrogates employ to advance their ambition.
It puzzles me, when such dishonesty is used as a tool on a regular basis -- ESPECIALLY when used to manipulate primary voters -- why anyone thinks we can believe her, trust her character or judgement. Or Bill's -- he'd be there too. No thanks.
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)...to explain why you don't like her.
Mr Bjornsdotter was a Hillary supporter in 2008 and he has moved to the frothing crowd. We both have an issue with the slight of hand employed by the Clinton's and I don't know if we will ever get past it.
Reter
(2,188 posts)Which is one of the reasons why I'd be worried she would lost the general election.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)In real life, people are much different.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Polling data shows Hillary consistently has very high negatives across the political spectrum. A lot of it is from irrational righties who will hate whoever appears to be a viable Democrat including Sanders.
But independents to a large extent don't view her favorably. And the left is now getting crapped on by her campaign, so she's sinking there.
In real life, Hillary isn't viewed in a positive light by the majority of the people.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Thank you. 
Autumn
(45,107 posts)something that we can not afford.
Justice
(7,188 posts)hamsterjill
(15,222 posts)This is a well thought post. Thank you.
I'm a Hillary supporter myself, but I will be first in line to vote for Bernie if he is indeed the nominee because (as you indicate) we cannot allow a whackadoodle to be President and I see NO ONE in the Republican line up that I do not consider a complete and utter whackadoodle.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)no putting it back in.....
closeupready
(29,503 posts)they certainly can't claim to be disappointed in the emotions they stir up - it's maybe just you...?
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)forums that supports Clinton and I meet a lot of people at my storees.
PonyUp
(1,680 posts)
DirtyHippyBastard
(217 posts)He was fully for Hillary a few months ago. I asked him why Hillary; "time for a woman president", he said. I asked if he had checked out Bernie. "The old guy?" He asked. I told him to just watch one speech, any speech, by Bernie. He did and started leaning toward Bernie. Then he happened across Hillary's DOMA speech. He is now totally for Bernie.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and disagreed with more than a few of his positions, I do not hate him.
I agree that there seems to be a strong hatred directed at HRC the person, as distinct from a dislike of her political positions. While Sanders is also my preferred candidate, HRC has good positions on many issues. And she would of course be far superior to any GOP candidate. While she might have been a Goldwater supporter as a student, it is also important to remember that the GOP of 1960 was a far different party from the GOP of 2016.
jillan
(39,451 posts)
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)And for publicly saying she wanted to get use out of her law degree, not just go to the White House and bake cookies.
If she hadn't been such an incredibly arrogant female, trying to do something important during her 8 years in the White House, other than choose table settings, the Rethugs would have left her alone.
So it was obviously all her fault!
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)and curse people who support her enough, that translates into votes. I will keep saying that if this board can tolerate ONLY ONE OPINION, than it shouldn't be called "Democratic Underground", since that is not very Democratic.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)that her supporters on this board never ever engage in such behavior.
True Blue American
(17,986 posts)Democratic Underground is trying to tell us who to vote for. That is not my idea of a good Democratic board.
You are supposed to be fair. I have not found much fairness here lately. You are repeating Republican talking points against Hillary. I do not appreciate one sided views shoved down my throat. And I have not decided yet. But the vitriol is pushing me away.
No good Democrats at all. Now, you can vote to delete me.
Have a nice evening.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)
--imm
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)Of course, "well-behaved" has a different meaning when applied to women...
artislife
(9,497 posts)Anecdotal yes, but I was talking to my roommate last night. She is in her mid 50s and did not come from a political family and has no college education which she is rather ashamed of. I don't know why, she has built a successful business that she loves and has the greatest heart for meeting people where they are. okay...back on track..
She is now a Bernie supporter and she said " I don't trust Hillary, I never have." She can't say why exactly and she is not a TV news watcher or anywhere near as political as I am.
In 2008, as the election cycle started, I didn't have the warm fuzzies for her either. And I didn't know why. As the campaigning went along, I had plenty of reasons to dislike her .
Why do some people like some quarter backs and others don't? I think it is their strong traits so if you don't like people who are wishy washy or people who will firmly and directly tell it like they see it, no holds barred, you react to how those traits strike you. Just an awareness.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)there is probably not a lot that can be done about that. Republicans hate her because well they hate everyone. Liberals hate her because well she isn't really all that a reliable advocate for liberal causes and she lies.
Hillary has done all she can to calm the waters with Republicans. And look at what it gets her, they might in fact hate her more than if she was more combatant with them.
This might also be a problem with liberals, it seems that they would rather see Hillary fist fighting with someone like Boehner rather than trying to compromise.
I don't know the answer to what Hillary could do to be more likable except for that lying thing that is a big no-no and hard to overcome without a lot of humility.
But, other than that I really don't know, because I don't think it's just the lying. Or just that she is in tight with corporations. Or just that she voted for the Iraq war. Or just that she campaigns dirty. Or just that she says a lot of unfortunate things. Because there are a whole lot of politicians that do those things and worse, yet they aren't hated near as much. Well, I hate them as much. But, I don't see other people hating on them as much. Anyway, there are people that have that likability factor and they can get away with a whole lot of crap and there are people that don't have it and they can try and try and try and it just doesn't work. I don't know why. Maybe if she was more in the trenches instead of at a podium it would help her likability.
SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)If she does American will not become any better.
Sanders is our best hope!
BlueMTexpat
(15,369 posts)here ON DU - and it IS outright hatred that is too often expressed by the constant trashing posts, the slurs, the sneers, and the jeers at her supporters - is absolutely appalling.
Period. 
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)But it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that Hillary supporters on DU are helpless victims. They do their own share of sneering, jeering, and slurring.
Like your post.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)BlueMTexpat
(15,369 posts)Sorry that I didn't include that in my earlier response. 
Reasonable people can and do differ. But the differences go beyond reason for too many DU posters.
Kurovski
(34,655 posts)And it should never blind us to her actual record.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)That item alone tells you what she is as a human being. And while that one item is at or near the top of the list, there is LONG list of items that display her utter lack of character. She's being judged on her own actions -- they real ones, not the Benghazi level right-wing poo flinging-- and they are pretty heinous.
MFM008
(19,816 posts)So is Donald Trump or Ted Cruz or Rubio better? I dont understand, I support Hillary but am reasonable enough to consider Sanders if he is the nominee. I will never NOT vote. That falls into the republicans plans to steal elections. Its MY vote and as much as I hate Sanders is as OLD as he is and is six years older than my dad was when he died and has all these great ideas and will never be able to pay for them because of the gop in congress. I will vote for the DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE. Get with it or really suffer when the gop takes over all 3 branches of government.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)That is how it goes. Obama took nearly eight years of outright GOP hatred and disrespect, he's still standing. I couldn't stand GWB, but he did his damage and went on his merry way--still don't like him. Not everyone's gonna like you.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)pointing out their flaws, disagreeing with their past actions, and saying you don't trust them is not "hate."
Anyone who claims it is is just playing the victim card.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)
JudyM
(29,251 posts)in congress.
She's very intelligent, no doubt. She's also a lightning rod that will get out the rethug vote like no other.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)there are over 20 years of accusations that have passed from people evaluating it to accepting it. with any other candidate they will have to build it from scratch, would not work as well, but with Clinton it is there pressed ionto subconsciousness of people.
It is not fair, it is not good, but it is.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)and I can guaran-damn-tee if there were a Repug congress she'd face impeachment in her first year in office. "Accomplish something" my shiny metal ass.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)But that still doesn't penetrate the American consciousness.
jkbRN
(850 posts)But I have zero respect for her, and I know she won't work near as hard as Bernie to implement the progressive policies that this country needs.
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)And please; let's not play the victim card again. She brought this on herself. She has to own it.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/hate.html#EfRthDzzHux8K8zO.99
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)However, I don't "hate" her.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)the eternal political insider/lifer class in this country. And HRH exemplifies that class like few do. For 35 years that class has feathered it's own nest using money-for-favors/access, truckling to the wealthy and dashing through the DC/Wall Street/MIC revolving door.
They've had ENOUGH of it. Herself is just the most visible representative of a brutally and totally corrupt and broken system.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)which was a big Fuck You to the poorest and most disadvantaged among us in "the richest country in the world."
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)
LonePirate
(13,426 posts)The Repubs have been attacking Hillary for decades so it's easy to explain why some in the general public hate her. However, the hatred for her here on DU - a site by and for Democrats - absolutely shocks me.
I support Bernie as I prefer his policies. I have no hatred for Hillary as she has been a lifelong and loyal Democrat. She is leagues better than any Repub and I will gladly vote for her if she becomes the nominee. She is vilified here on DU and it is appalling. If someone prefers Bernie, as I do, it is more beneficial to Bernie and to DU by talking up Bernie's strengths and issues instead of trying to tear down Hillary or her supporters. There is no place here is on DU for such malicious ugliness against another Democrat, particularly one who we need to listen to us if she becomes our leader.
AzDar
(14,023 posts) 
marew
(1,588 posts)CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)farleftlib
(2,125 posts)yes, and scornful of anybody that does not serve it. She will employ any means necessary to accomplish the election of Hillary. Obama felt her wrath at being thwarted and now it's Bernie's turn. It's not a pretty sight.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)and I don't recall all this hatred for him. 
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Both candidates took Wall st. money. This time we have a candidate who has the history to legitimately call out what many people believe to be a scourge to the system. Unfortunately, the other candidate personifies everything that is wrong with our electoral process.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)The misogyny in it from self-described 'Bernie bros' was even noted -- and condemned -- by Sanders himself.
marew
(1,588 posts)Hillary complained she and Bill were dead broke when they left the White House. She has no clue what "dead broke means"! She lost all of my respect when she was feeling so, so sorry for herself. I have seen people who are really "dead broke" and she has never been anything close to that.
It is always all about her! Lucky she had Goldman-Sachs to help her out of being dead broke!
TipTok
(2,474 posts)It is the forced personality and the feeling that everything that comes out of her mouth is focused group tested that turns most people off...
IMHO
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)and less effective than Obama. It really doesn't matter what Dems think about her, they'll fall in line if she's elected. No Dem will willfully sabotage either Clinton or Obama.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)
Political_Junkie
(1,998 posts)And that is the problem.
840high
(17,196 posts)she looks inward.
msongs
(67,420 posts)BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)I don't hate Hillary, but I have moved to Sanders, who was well known to me years ago. I would speculate that a great number of Sanders supporters are the same.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I'm certainly too young to remember the supposed "good ole days" of politics in the 90's (I was still busy with my nintendo).
To me, she represents everything that is corporate and establishment about politics. She is like a left-wing Mitt Romney.
in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)She is loathed with a burning, visceral hatred by the GOP. She cannot and will not win the GE.
PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)or any Democrat. That's what they do.
But, we can win the election by winning independent voters. The question is who is more likely to do that Hillary or Bernie. I see plusses and minuses for both of them on that score. It also depends on which of the loons the repugs settle on.
I support Bernie for the nomination, but I am not confident either of our candidates can win enough independent support. There are a lot of things that could go wrong.
in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)Did you see the Independents Bernie got in NH? Bernie won a majority of votes from independents, voters under 45, liberals, moderates, men and - perhaps most cutting for Clinton - women. I don't see that support waning in any state. She'll get the elderly and SOME of the AA vote. I don't think that's going to win many states. And she certainly can't win the GE. She won't win the GE.
PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE
jonno99
(2,620 posts)disapproval (or even disdain) with their policies & positions considered HATE?
have you seen Paglia's article?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511202676
She lays out her position - the reason she thinks the way she does about the candidates. Does she criticize? Yes, but it's not hate...
H2O Man
(73,559 posts)Well said. Thank you for this.
The level of the irrational hatred aimed at Hillary Clinton is an accurate measure of this nation's pathology. And a huge amount of it isn't accurately aimed at her -- it's diseased thinking that focuses on their projection of who Hillary is, rather than the actual individual. I have respect for the way that she deals with this curious dynamic in our society -- because even though much of it isn't grounded in reality, it still presents difficulties and hardships. I suspect that most people would opt out of public life, if they had to deal with even 5% of the nonsense that she has contended with for decades.
I, too, support Bernie Sanders. And, in truth, there are areas where I disagree with Hillary Clinton ....including some very important issues, where I strongly disagree. Yet, I recognize her as being a far superior human being and politician, than any of the republicans running for president. Thus, while I'm all for discussing the reasons that people prefer either Bernie or Hillary, even when it may become a heated debate of the issues involved. But I wish that we could do that, without allowing the negative stuff to be part of it.
madokie
(51,076 posts)this was before '08 for the most part. Before she started showing her ass in the campaign once it was narrowed down to her and the ultimate winner.
For the most part Hillary's problems have been brought on by her. Not by some right wing conspiracy although they did continue and will continue to throw fuel on that fire.
Hillary I understand you wanting this presidency but in life I've learned that if someone is willing to do anything and everything possible to get what they want we want to make sure they don't get it. blind ambition is dangerous.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)someone's back but because she just believes democracy isn't the answer in all cases
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)She thinks that (Wanted War Criminal) Henry Kissinger was "a defender of human rights." When you're willing to suck up to one of the great butchers of the second half of the 20th century, what WON'T you say or do?
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)
Wibly
(613 posts)Perhaps if Hillary and her campaign would refrain from their so-called 'artful smear' of Sanders, she'd be getting less blowback.
Then again, less blowback, would give the Clinton Campaign less grist to churn its 'everybody hates us' millstone on.
If Clinton does not want to be called a hypocrite she should stop being a hypocrite.
If that's hate, then language has gone over a cliff.
JCMach1
(27,559 posts)Essentially, if you have a D after your name, they will go for your blood.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)civil rights record?
islandmkl
(5,275 posts)but if you don't know any level of what you call 'hate' concerning Hillary on a street level, then you need to get out of your neighborhood and talk to some people who are different than you....
the level of 'hate' of Hillary is palpable throughout a large segment of the population...who cares or what does it matter why?
put your ear to the ground and quit listening for the sounds you want to hear...
this actually has nothing to do with Bernie versus Hillary...that is our fight...
this is about what a large segment of the population, as far removed from DU as they could possibly be, who have a rabid urge to keep her from going anywhere...
they are not 'fringe' crazy RW imbeciles, either..they are voters and they will turn out to vote...
get out of the bubble...
ellennelle
(614 posts)but, i have to admit, the way she comported herself about this time 8 years ago really put me off, and now she's doing it again, but pulling out all the stops!
add to that the money and connections etc., her disturbingly wobbly position statements, and i seriously do not want any part of her.
yup, i'll vote for her if she gets the nomination. but every day she pulls another stupid bit of nonsense, and my enthusiasm is so close to deflated for her, i can hardly breathe.
so hell yeah! BERNIE ALL THE WAY!!
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)she's done this to herself on the most part or idiots around her have.
forest444
(5,902 posts)It doesn't matter how many of us on DU liker her or feel neutral about her; most of the voting public detests her.
It is what it is. The media spent 25 years ruining her reputation, and she herself hasn't always helped her case very much either.
fbc
(1,668 posts)for corporate money.
It's corruption, plain and simple. They should be in jail.
mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)Leading the party to the right to win elections isn't good enough.
If you don't stand for anything, why stand for election?
Sure, lots of Hillary hatred originates with the Right Wing and Faux News but lies about Benghazi and Vince Foster and crap like that isn't the whole story.
Playing the game to win, and only to win, does. If you can't trust someone, well, you can't trust them and that just doesn't go away.
Look at the record, FFS.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)to attacking Bill and Hillary. One of the worst of the attackers was Chis Matthews.
At the time I was a staunch defender of Bill Clinton.
I am saddened to find that my support of Bill in the 1990s was misplaced as he signed a number of bills destructive to the interests of the American working class people.
NAFTA almost ruined the nation by itself.
The Telecommunications Act allowed greater consolidation of the media and you see the results every day. The major "News" networks are no longer ever worth watching.
Then there was the greatest crowning achievement of all—Gramm-Leach-Bliley. 
Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)Third Way triangulation, bathing in Wall Street cash, and her "tear down your Democratic opponent with half-truths and outright deceptions" (remember the 08' ugliness?) has earned her the disdain of many of us who believe the Democrats have lost their way, Big Time.
DFW
(54,408 posts)I don't think she confused anything.
hoosierlib
(710 posts)And she'll do and say whatever needs to in order to get what she wants...
She has publicly destroyed other women who have stood in her way or threatened her position.
I don't hate her because she is woman. I hate her because she IS a nasty person and unworthy of being President.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Yes there is SOME hate, but it isn't the driving force for MOST progressives that oppose her.
The policies HER HUSBAND put into law and SHE supported have PERSONALLY fucked up my life and the life of many people I know. I don't want her anywhere near the White House, ever again.
If you want to call that hate, go right ahead, no sweat off my brow.
If she continues the slimy campaigning however, I'd be open to moving my strong distaste for her up to real hate.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Just look at the record obstruction now. Both of our candidates will have that creek to paddle, but I agree with the visceral Hillary hatred.
Chakab
(1,727 posts)
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)in terms of her unfavorable rating
ancianita
(36,095 posts)I think she's electable, but the right is trying to make the Bernie people get all twisted and stay home for the GE if he doesn't get the nomination.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)how smart she is. It's the little innuendos that we the unwashed masses aren't smart enough to know how much we need her to do the smart things because of how complicated they are, or how impractical they are, or well you know the rest, but always suggesting that we aren't smart enough to be able to figure out the course of our destiny.
This has always been her personality and I don't think she can overcome it.
BobTheSubgenius
(11,564 posts)Maybe it's the internecine fighting, maybe it's a vague feeling of being let down by POTUS not living up to a lot of what was expected by him, or perhaps it's just a general malaise brought on by the entire political landscape.
This is JUST MY OPINION, but I think Bernie is going to have a lot harder slog getting elected than many would like to believe. Self-described socialist. A virtual guarantee of higher taxes. A completely unrealistic expectation of universal, single-payer health care....and even if that were somehow come to be, he has said it will be available to undocumented immigrants.
But, the overall picture is frightening. For all the initial excitement about electing a female president, she has been dropped like a bad habit by so many D's. And, OK.....I get the enthusiasm for Feeling The Bern. I love a LOT of his "story," and was very happy that he got into the race, if only to elevate and broaden the conversation.
Now that he is a legitimate contender, one could be forgiven for thinking that this whole "political revolution" would be gaining traction and momentum. But look at the NH turnout - forget the outcome, that's a different conversation. While there are still a LOT of things that could go pear-shaped on the GOP side, the right is MOTIVATED. They brought out more voters than did the Dems - 2000 people short of the all-time record turnout for Obama in 2008.
HRC aside, I'd have thought Bernie would have drawn more of a crowd in his own neighbourhood. It does not leave me very sanguine about November, but it's early days yet. With luck, the Dems will pull together and either the public wakes up to how completely ridiculous the GOP field is, let alone outright dangerous. Or The Donald will finally reveal that he's just been in it for grins and ego, and leaves their shit in disarray as he head
s out the door.
PonyUp
(1,680 posts)
Carolina
(6,960 posts)it. I relocated to my husband's native southern state in the 90s when I was a staunch Clinton supporter. What a rude awakening, the Clinton loathing was palpable and I felt as though I'd moved to a foreign country.
That hatred has not diminished a bit and will rear its head in the general, if she's the nominee. All the baggage -- real or fabricated -- will be resurrected. And we all know how truly vile repukes can be. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that she'll win this state... ever.
I am solidly for Bernie and admit that I can't stand HRC myself. Her votes for IWR, the Patriot Act, Bush's bankruptcy bill; her tenure as SOS leaving Honduras, Libya, Syria in shambles; her 3rd way triangulation; her sense of entitlement and nastiness when it is threatened; her shared legacy with Bill* of NAFTA, the Telecommunications Act, Welfare deform, overturning Glass-Steagall, etc.; and so much more
*recall in 2008 she claimed 20 years experience which included her 12 years as First Lady of Arkansas and 8 as FLOTUS
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)"Progressives" gin up hatred toward Clinton and then cite that same hatred as a reason why she shouldn't be supported.
I'd like to see a poll that compares animosity toward Clinton vs. "socialism." I'd lay down money that I could predict the results.
napi21
(45,806 posts)When pure HATRED was displayed against Obama even back before he was elected,, I thought it was because so many simply hated black people. But I've heard a lot of disgusting things said between Rep & Dem congressmen too. NOW I'm pretty convinced the Pubs have been "taught" to not only disagree with Dems, but to HATE THEM! Nothing is out of bounds. The only words that aren't acceptable are those banned by the FCC (although I'm sure they're said off camera).
They believe Hillary is going to be the nominee so they're going after her, but you watch. If Bernie picks up popularity, they'll go after him with just as much venom or more.
I was a little bit heartened after listening to a Pub focus group where almost everyone there said "It's time to get along and get things done." I HOPE that's one of the reasons so many Pubs are liking Trump. They are VERY DISCUSTED by the "ESTABLISHMENT" in DC and want them GONE!
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)This has become the counterattack question for those who have run out of arguments in defense of the indefensible.
dsc
(52,162 posts)the GOP just hate him you know.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)The people she should be wooing and more importantly, wishing to GOVERN.
SHEESH.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)Most American aren't affiliated with either party, they consider themselves independent..
Hillary also fails to inspire the 30 and under vote. That's why it's hard to understand why her campaign seems so willing to alienate Sanders supporters with her increasingly nasty ass campaign...
DFW
(54,408 posts)I'd say that the Democratic nominee is the next president. The Republicans are eating themselves alive, and spitting out the bones for all to watch. We're only doing it on DU, but it isn't universal with the Democrats (yet, anyway).
This whole theme of "Bernie can't get elected" or "Hillary can't get elected" is all hogwash for now. In 2006, a half black guy couldn't get elected, either. Surprise!
In 2005, interviews were conducted with some Republican Senators who said they didn't dare say so too loudly back in their home states, but they found Hillary to be "one of the few liberal Democrats they could talk to and work with." Not because she was Republican lite--they knew better, even if DU doesn't ten years later--but because she would listen and at least make the effort to hear them out--a courtesy they never deigned to extend to Obama, by the way..
I was out in southern Utah in 1994, not even 2 years after Bill Clinton's first inauguration, and heard an announcer at a rodeo making obscene jokes about Hillary to the crowd--not to universal acclaim by any means. The Hillary hate is indeed well-entrenched,-always has been. Hell, I remember ugly remarks being made about Jackie Kennedy. Still, I refuse to join the intellectual company of a smug, Bundy-like, commercial cowboy in southern Utah. The Obama hate was/is out there, too. So, what else is new?
"Augen zu und durch," ans they say in Germany. "Close your eyes and full speed ahead." It beats wallowing in one's own bile.
Nac Mac Feegle
(971 posts)For 25 years, the Re-pukes have been demonizing her. Since '91, they've been on a Clinton hate mission, and it's tarnished her. Her mention of "The vast right wing conspiracy" was frankly accurate, and it's only gotten worse in these last two election cycles. I have people that refer to her as "Hitlery" without a second thought, as if that is her name. I see "Hillary for Prison - 2016" T-shirts advertised all the time.
I find it sickening. What bothers me is that all the accusations, however far-fetched, have seemingly served to damage her 'brand'. I think she would make an excellent President, but I also worry that, if elected, the hatred from the right wing would equal that directed to President Obama. The obstructionism that follows would be the same, too. I truly wish I could be proven wrong. I wish the electorate would give a Democratic majority in both chambers for whichever candidate is elected, to put an end to the current mess that is not only holding up any real progress, but actually damaging out country.
Whichever candidate we put forth, we must fully support, remembering that the 'down-ticket' races need attention, too.
There can be none of the spoiled child "If XXXXX doesn't win the primary, I'm staying home." attitude. Like the bumper sticker says: "Democrats: We're not perfect, but those other guys are NUTS".
Remember: We suffer from an embarrassment of riches. They suffer from a richness of embarrassments.
Let's not waste our energies on petty bickering in the Primaries, and keep our attention on the REAL battle; the General.
chapdrum
(930 posts)The "Clinton Global Initiative" based in NYC.
I realize this is but one locus but, to me, it's important and telling.
Peterson was Secretary of Commerce under (sigh) Reagan.
Between 2007 and 2011, he gave $458,000,000 to his foundation.
This tithing is corroborated at pgpf.org, as the foundation's IRS Form PF-990 from 2014 (there are earlier ones, too) is posted there.
One of Petey's aims is to privatize or dismantle Social Security. Toward that end, he has enlisted a number of prominent public individuals, one of whom is Chelsea Clinton.
In my view, you are NOT a progressive (a position she'd otherwise laugh at were it not for Sanders) if anyone in your family has this type of affiliation.
Mysteriously, it's not yet crystal clear to some DU'ers, but f*ck Republicans for their endless cynicism and rapacity.
840high
(17,196 posts)
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Well, after Bill & his many republican policies, still hurting us today....
We don't need any more republicans who call themselves Democrats.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)….I do hate her behavior: winking at banksters, taking their money and running for office, fully knowledgeable about how bribery and favors are bought and sold in DC. She perpetuates something that's rotten and is destroying democracy.
I admire her bravery, admire her grit, but hate the way she descended into Muslim-innuendo against Obama.
Hated her advocating for Bill's crime bill, welfare reform and Nafta. These policies have fallen disproportionately hard on minority and poor people. That disgusts me.
Hated her support, out of political expediency, for the Bush/Cheney War which has left civil war in its wake and that may not end in our lifetime. That's a lot of suffering unleashed on the world.
As a woman from a long line of strong women, and good men, I have no problem with strong outspoken women. And I can pretty well tell the difference between a woman inspired by her mission and a woman inspired by her own ambition to be powerful for power's sake, for her fame in history.
I'd hate a man for all the same reasons and I'm not going to lower my standards when it comes to woman. I see her relentlessness and that has a place, but I do not like or admire the full range of her character.
Are we not to hold our leaders to high policy standards just because they're from a particular discriminated against group?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)She did more than that - and she more than deserves the hatred bestowed to her.
She voted for the war on Iraq and then took more than a decade to realize that it was a mistake!
That war ruined lives, including my own. I fought in that war, killed in that war, and lost friends in that war. That war, in turn, has absolutely destroyed my life.
I'm 35 years old and I'm ravaged by my memories of my participation in that war. I'm sure Hillary Clinton doesn't experience anything close to what I feel on a daily basis. She has no idea what it feels like to watch somebody drop in the sights of a weapon you fired. She never had to stuff a body bag with the mangled remains of someone who served under your leadership and she never had to fend off the parents of a child killed in the crossfire of a firefight who wanted nothing more than their kid's body.
As a result of my participation in the war that she supported I typically spen 1/3 of the year in a psych hospital. In the last year I've had at least 4 suicide attempts. I surely doubt Hillary Clinton has ever attempted suicide. When I hear that she slashed her wrists multiple times until her hands couldn't hold the razor blade anymore and she sprayed her blood in her husbands face after an argument like I did when her spouse calls her a "coward and a killer" because her spouse can't stand the fact that she actually killed people in the war then I'll believe she is sorry.
The hatred is more than justified.
My two kids and my wife certainly have paid the price for the war on Iraq - and they never wanted nor had anything to do with the war.
I've lost numerous jobs and almost lost my marriage. I have become completely disabled by severe PTSD and have lost nearly everything in my life. It doesn't look like Hillary's life has suffered at all as a result of her part in the war.
Again, the hatred is more than justified.
Anyone who voted for that war should be automatically disqualified from ever holding elected office again - and they would be getting off easy with just that.
I was just a kid when I joined the military in 1997. I believed that we as a nation had learned our lessons from our previously ill-thought out wars and that I would be a part of a force for good. I had nothing but the purest and best intentions and I was completely taken advantage of and thrown into a war that was about nothing more than revenge and killing as many Arabs as we could after September 11th. Hillary is complicit in that allowing that war and should, at the very least, suffer for it to the same degree as me, my wife, and children have for that war.
The hatred some people have for Hillary is more than justified.
chapdrum
(930 posts)Victor.
There are no words that would suffice in response.
I just wish that so many of our fellow citizens were more attentive to the pathological nature of all almost all of our politicians, then and now (and likely, the future). There should be mandatory, state of the art, peer-reviewed psychological testing for ANY person who wants to run for high office (or perhaps all offices).
We seem to have a starry-eyed view of these people, the vast majority of whom become politicians SOLELY for their self-aggrandizement, and we do not seem to see through them.
If only we paid 1/10th the attention to these sociopaths (starting with not voting for them) as we do to, say, sports.
I sincerely wish you the very best.
BellaKos
(318 posts)From my personal experience, I can say that the general public has no idea of the level of sacrifice that military personnel and their families endure. And the small percentage who give so much, should be given so much more in compensation than pale, empty words of gratitude. It's terribly wrong that the politicians and the public sit comfortably in oblivion while this injustice continues.
I humbly offer you my respect and my hope that you can fully recover from your ordeal.
coyote
(1,561 posts)It needs to be heard. It certainly moved me.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)I think whoever we get elected, the repugs are going to treat the same as they treated Carter, Clinton, and Obama. Their scorched earth politics have been getting more extreme every year.
There are a lot of good, respectable Dem groups and people backing her. Women's groups, Civl rights people, some labor. And the women who wanted to break the glass ceiling in '08 and put their cause on the back burner for 8 years deserve respect.
She's too corporate and conservative for my tastes, but I'll vote for her if she wins against my primary choice. Unlike the other 3 DLC candidates I could have supported, but didn't.
BellaKos
(318 posts)It has been insinuated, implied, and bluntly stated in various ways that if you don't support Hillary then that means you are ignorant, a traitor to the party, and even sexist.
Sanders supporters are guilty of the same tactics, although not as overtly.
Just stop. Labeling people in this manner simply reveals the limits of the accuser's imagination and scope of reference. And it certainly doesn't put forward a case that would dissuade anyone from his/her initial conclusions. It's merely bickering and reminiscent of juvenile conversations heard in a high school cafeteria.
That said, I am not a Hillary supporter for two reasons.
1. Her vote on Iraq.
Yeah, it's true that other Senators voted the same but it was especially egregious in her case. And that's because she was a well-known person on the national stage. If she had spoken out against it as Gore, or Obama, or even Brent Scowcroft (former BushI adviser), did, it could have made a difference. Others may have followed her lead and expressed dissent as well.
To me, her vote revealed something about her character at the time. As a former First Lady at the end of Gulf War I, she certainly knew the history and the facts on the ground that made The Grand Dubya's assertions a lie. Consequently, her vote could not have been viewed as anything other than political opportunism. Simple as that.
2. Emailgate.
Yeah, it's true that this issue is mired in controversy that won't be settled until the FBI completes its investigation and the public is apprised of the facts. But that doesn't negate the fact that Hillary has addressed this issue with deliberate obfuscation -- her "lawyer-speak."
And in March of last year, when she made her first pubic statement about the private server, she actually said that the server was secure because it was "guarded by the Secret Service." My thought was, "How stupid, gullible, naive, and dimwitted does she believe us voters to be?"
I was insulted.
That said, I do admit that I find her persona grating. In an effort to conjure the image of authority, she presents herself with a glossy, phony, slimy, arrogance that I find, personally, revolting. One doesn't have to be dismissive and arrogant to be respected.
So, yes, count me among those who find Hillary untrustworthy. But I don't hate her.
kerry-is-my-prez
(8,133 posts)They've done it to every Dem President that we've had from Carter on.
chapdrum
(930 posts)I long for the day when a prominent Democrat, or better, a "prominent" Republican, calls out the latter party for its sheer and utter fraudulence.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)imo
And represents everything that's wrong with politics and government
SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)...