Can we all agree to take the "No PUMA, no Bern-Out Pledge"?

[moriah]

Having first come to DU during the 2008 primary season, I know how heated debate can get.

Being passionate about the issues YOU feel are most important, the vision and platform YOU want to see the Democratic Party have going into the General Election, and the candidate you support is GOOD! That's what the primary process is for, and with it not being a winner-take-all system, your voice has weight in the primaries and caucuses no matter where you live. I want all our voices heard!

I didn't criticize Bernie for stating, after Iowa, that he would take the contest all the way to the Convention. Even if the candidate I supported in 2008 might have, in many people's eyes, held out too long before suspension of her campaign, it DID help create enormous Democratic interest in the 2008 elections, and sustained that high level of interest well into the summer. Besides, we don't know yet what the pledged delegate count will look like yet, so it could remain a very tight race, or we could see an obvious winner much earlier.

I know how hard it is to see your favorite candidate lose a primary. I was sad. But I was also happy, because I knew Barack Obama would be a MUCH better president than John McCain. Even though I am a female and a feminist, I wasn't so motivated by my ovaries to support a female candidate that I fell for McCain's gambit to tap Sarah Palin. I won't fall for it this year if Bernie wins, doesn't tap Hillary or Elizabeth Warren, and the GOP decides to tap Carly to try to appeal to ovaries voters, either. It didn't work in 2008 for the same reason it won't work this year -- female Hillary supporters really aren't voting with their ovaries. And there are many female Bernie supporters who are just as passionate about their candidate as I am about mine.

But remember what "PUMA" stood for? "Party Unity, My Ass". Well, my answer to that is:

In the General, for any progressive, liberal, Democrat, etc -- the only choice is to "Vote Democratic, The Ass You Save May Be Your Own!"

---------

So, how many of you will agree to stand with me and make the following pledge:

"No matter how heated the primaries get here on DU or other forums, no matter how different our candidates might be from each other, and no matter what disappointment I might feel if my candidate doesn't win the primary, because the GOP regaining the White House is unacceptable I will still go to the polls in November... and vote Democratic!"

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. I don't do loyalty oaths.

McCarthyite tactics are so passe.

[moriah]

3. I call it a "save your own ass" oath.

Because if you think ANY person we've seen in the Rethugligan Food Fights is going to serve any true Bernie or Hillary supporter's goals, ideas, ideals etc better, you might not have been paying attention.

[thucythucy]

8. Calling an OP on Democratic Underground a "McCarthyite tactic"

might well be a McCarthyite tactic in itself.

Seriously, it's a post on DU asking a question. You don't have to answer, and nothing will happen to you.

By contrast, the original Joe McCarthy and his accomplices such as Richard Nixon cost thousands of people their careers, their jobs, their homes. Some folks went to prison. Some folks even committed suicide. Authors and actors were blacklisted, loyal civil servants were fired or demoted, and the political life of the entire nation suffered. Read David Halberstam's "The Best and the Brightest" for a good overview of the damage that "McCarthyite tactics" did to the nation's foreign policy.

Sad to say it seems hyperbole is not passé at all, at least not on DU.

[earthshine]

46. I am with you on this.

Oaths? I find this thread to be very trite. This has all been said before on so many other posts.

Bernie and Hillary supporter will come together for the general election. If some are disaffected, so be it.

> I didn't criticize Bernie for stating, after Iowa, that he would take the contest all the way to the Convention.

I expect nothing less from Bernie, which is why I support and volunteer for him.

After Iowa? Clinton won by .2%. This was a resounding spiritual victory for Bernie.

[TheBlackAdder]

67. Apparently, a lot of Dem Super Delegates love those Tea Party/Norquist-esque "Loyalty Oaths"

.


It looks like the DNC and RNC are not dissimilar after all.


.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. Oh, I intend to vote democratically.

[moriah]

6. :)

That's all I really care about. I don't want to see a spirited and passionate debate about the way we should move forward, which is what we need, turn into spitting our electorate along racial, religious, or gender lines.

[longship]

4. It was my intention from day one... actually day zero. nt

[casperthegm]

5. While I understand your point...

I vote based on the candidate. That said, I can't imagine ever voting for a republican, as very few of their views align with mine. And yet, at the same time I feel sick to my stomach when I think of having to vote for Clinton. It's not a personal thing with her- it's based on the issues. And she has a terrible record when it comes to so many issues that I care about.

[moriah]

14. I'm not saying it is easy. I'm glad I didn't feel the need...

... to just hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils, because I knew our Nominee was clearly the best choice. I phonebanked hard for Obama in the General, and that's when I start donating money (too poor to donate anything else other than time for the primaries).

But even if we need to distribute clothespins outside the booths in November....

Thanks for responding.

[RobertEarl]

7. Don't trust DU members?

The real problem is the establishment Dems who deserted candidates like Gore and Kerry. Maybe instead of questioning one or two DUers your focus may rise to those with power?

[moriah]

12. Well, since the primary instigators of the "PUMA" movement were ....

.... Republicans, I guess I would have to talk to them.

Instead, the message is better directed at the people who might fall for similar rhetoric because they forget who our real enemy is after months of passionate advocacy for their candidate.

[cali]

9. As I don't expect candidate to win, I'm spared that pain

What pains me is having to vote for a candidate I believe is corrupt.

[PonyUp]

10. I will vote for the real Democrats. n/t

[Carolina]

29. Me, too

[840high]

38. Me, three.

[mikehiggins]

11. Absolutely. I pledge to support/vote for the Democratic candidate in November

even if its goddamn Rex the Wonder Dog.

Throw the Clown Car under every bus we have.

[artislife]

13. I hate OPs like this.

They are numerous and pointless because they mean nothing.

Who is going to post that they will not and get booted? So basically, the answers will not be across the board answers, just an echo chamber.


So..they are truly pointless.

[moriah]

16. I haven't seen anyone pizzaed yet for saying it.

And several have.

I thought Pizza Time for that only came after this subforum closed. Shilling for Bloomberg or someone else, yeah, that gets a pizza right away.

[artislife]

17. They are taking names. nt

[moriah]

74. Possibly, but unlikely. Maybe of people registering for the first time during primaries, but...

... MIRT and others have a lot of other work ahead of them, and anyway the Jury system will allow those people to be pizzaed if truly deserved when this subforum disappears.

But only if they keep stirring the pot, or as EarlG said recently, lose their cool significantly now enough to get hides. Truly, most people serving on juries will decide to let anything but truly heinous obviously disruptive crap, if it's within its proper subforum. This jury I was called on was for a post in GD instead of GD , which probably contributed to it getting hidden:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027594318

But here were the results:

On Tue Feb 9, 2016, 01:05 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

“Entrenched anti-Semitic views” very rare among whites and Asian Americans, common among blacks and
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027594318

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

the intent for posting this racist and bigoted article is divisive and insensitive.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Feb 9, 2016, 01:14 AM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I agree with the alerter, especially since thjs article is from 2014, doesn't mention either candidate but certainly tries to divide our big tent in the context of our election at the moment. Bill has been popular with black constituents for decades, which is why Hillary's poll numbers are higher there, not because blacks don't like Jews. Racebaiting and meant to disrupt.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No one can judge a poster's intent. Discuss, don't alert.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I agree with the person who reported it. It was intentionally for cynical reasons.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

Edit, I promise the name for this subforum wasn't supposed to be a tongue sticking out, but is too appropriate to fix.

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. Once there's a nominee...it's lockstep time. Get on the bandwagon, or leave DU. n/t

[earthshine]

48. Absolutely meaningless, at this point. nt

[PFunk1]

15. No.

This is a loyalty oath plain and simple. And I don't do loyalty oaths (too McCarthy-like as someone already posted here). Especially not this far out.

However I will vote for the one that best fits the democratic idea-weather they call themselves a democrat or not.

[VulgarPoet]

18. +1.

[moriah]

20. I hope you reconsider.

Until we get instant runoff voting, voting any way other than for the Democratic nominee, or staying at home, means a vote for the GOP that didn't get cancelled out.

Vote your conscience in the primaries. Please! But don't lose sight of what's at stake in November.

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. Nope. One person, one vote for whomever you CHOOSE to vote for. No loyalty oath for me. n/t

[moriah]

25. You can call it a loyalty oath if you want.

I call it voting in your own self-interest in November, because we don't need Ted Nukem Cruz Missle, Mark Forced Pregnancy After Rape Rubio, or FSM-forbid, The Hair, in the Oval Office.

But do as you will, even if it hurts both yourself and the country.

[RiverLover]

39. This is how they get the establishment president.every.time.

"But whatever the other side offers is worse!"

Divide us firmly left or right, and then they've got US.

Why do you think these moneyed players give to both sides? So they can call the shots no matter who is elected.

It'd be much simpler if we just nominate someone who isn't paid off to begin with. But barring that, I'm sick of being played.

[Kelvin Mace]

43. The road to Hell is paved with "pragmatism"

I will NOT take the blame for people who willfully choose someone who will destroy them. People need to wake the Hell up and educate themselves about reality. If we can't be bothered, then we deserve our fate.

[artislife]

49. That should be a poster! nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. Oh, don't worry, I'll be voting for my own self-interests...don't be concerned about that. Though,

I'm sure MY self-interests don't mesh with yours.

And an argument can be made for people voting for Clinton ARE voting against their own best interest, so when she loses the GE, if she's the nominee (as highly unlikely as that is), THAT, my friend, is on you, not me.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[moriah]

66. I'm talking about voting for the Democratic Nominee.

Whoever he or she might be.

I'm not criticizing your candidate here. Or anywhere else. I want to seriously hear from any of our Observant Jewish members, and hopefully influential rabbis in the community, if the exception to breaking the Sabbath for "saving a life" can be made for attending the Nevada Caucuses (MANY lives depend on the outcome of this election) and if so get the message out NOW! I don't want voter suppression in any form or fashion, and I'm not telling you to stop fiercely advocating for your candidate. I encourage it! I want you to!

But no, you're WRONG that it would be on me, unless you are prepared to say it would have been on Obama supporters in 2008 if true HRC supporters stayed home instead of coming out to vote for the Democratic Nominee. Because people like me, who DID work our hearts out for Obama, made a difference. Sure, I'm in a red state, but I called a hell of a lot of swing states.

But I'm not even asking you to go as far as I did. Just to realize until we get instant runoff voting, sitting at home ir voting third party just means a GOP vote that didn't get cancelled out. And that's just the way it is right now.

[in_cog_ni_to]

68. I always vote. I haven't missed an election yet and I don't do loyalty oaths. Votes need to be

earned, not taken for granted...just because someone calls themselves a Democrat, when they're not even close.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[liberal_at_heart]

21. no.

[Joe the Revelator]

23. Nope. Not after today.

[99Forever]

24. I pledge ..

...to vote my conscience. Period.

[AtomicKitten]

26. +1

[840high]

44. .^that

[Maedhros]

27. Well, I had no intention of voting for Hillary even before Sanders joined the race.

I only re-registered with the Party to vote for Bernie.

[6chars]

28. yes. whoever the delegates and superdelegates choose

[bigwillq]

30. No (nt)

[bowens43]

31. Not me. I will not for someone i consider to be unfit

I don't care what letter is next to their name on the ballot.

Voting for 'not as bad as the other guy' is what got us into this mess. You want to compromise your beliefs ,go for it. I'm finished with that shit.

Maybe we need to hit bottom to turn this around....

[kerry-is-my-prez]

45. We already hit the bottom with Bush.....

[moriah]

47. If you want to end that mess, push for instant runoff.

I support it, not only because it would allow a ranking of preferences that would give people the ability to actually vote their conscience in November without compromising their own self-interest, it would make both major parties more responsive to their electorate.

Many people who vote GOP nationally wish they would stop focusing so much on their Evangelical constituency, and would choose a Libertarian candidate over the GOP nominee if they were too focused on restricting freedoms for people who disagree. Similarly, the realization that Greens and other more Progressive candidates might actually beat out a Dem candidate if people are voting their conscience vs their fears and self-interest would drive the Democratic Party establishment to make substantial changes.

Until then, though... I will vote to save my own ass. If I had been retarded/ovary driven in 2008 when I certainly didn't expect to be benefiting from the ACA or protecting Social Security personally myself now, I'd have been up shit creek without a paddle when I got fired after two major hospitalizations in six months, had two more after uninsured before the ACA came into effect, and was declared disabled.

[thucythucy]

73. Specifically, what do you mean?

Which instance of "voting for 'not as bad as the other guy'" "got us into this mess."

You mean, voting for President Obama over McCain and Romney? Or voting for Gore and Kerry over Bush? That's what "got us into this mess?"

Funny, I seem to remember a stream of Republican administrations, Reagan I and II (was voting for Carter and Mondale "a lesser of two evils" vote), Bush Sr. and then Bush Jr. I and II, that appointed a host of reactionary Supreme Court and federal court judges, gutted the social safety net, privatized college loans, got us into several unnecessary wars, left us open to terrorist attacks, fucked up FEMA something royal, lowered taxes on the rich and ran up enormous deficits...etc. etc.

Or is it only Clinton you're talking about, Bill that is?

As I've said multiple times now, I support Bernie, hope he wins the nomination, hope he chooses a progressive running mate, hope it's a Bernie landslide with coat tails that win the Senate and maybe even (I can dream, can't I?) tip the House. But I'm really bothered by bashing that's aimed primarily at Democrats, when as I see it it's Republicans who "got us into this mess" and Democrats like President Obama and yes, even President Clinton, who have had to clean up the messes and get no credit whatsoever, not even, evidently, from progressive Democrats.

And I'm curious as to what your solution would be, if for some reason Bernie doesn't grab the nomination? MORE Republican administrations, more tax cuts for the wealthy, more reactionary Supreme Court justices, more slashing of the social safety net, more attacks on women's rights and voting rights, even--this is the latest GOP scheme--privatizing the air traffic control system? Honestly, I understand the frustration and anger, but this notion of sitting out a national election as a demonstration of your own personal ethics ("I'm just too good to vote for one of THEM&quot and consequences be damned frightens me.

Haven't we had enough of slash and burn politics?

[FoxNewsSucks]

32. The last thing I want is another

lousy, dirty, stinking, lying, rotten, cheating, stealing, filthy, sanctimonious, authoritarian, ratfucking republican in the White House.

There is no doubt that Bernie Sanders is the person this country needs. None.

But, it would be a lot easier to eventually have to vote for Hillary Clinton if she actually wins the popular vote in the primaries. If every result is like NH though, where Sanders has a yuge lead yet TIES for delegates, or gets LESS delegates, that just tells everyone that the democrat's system is just as corrupt for The Establishment as the republican's.

I'm so sick of my "D" vote being taken for granted simply because I refuse to ever vote for a lousy, dirty, stinking, lying, rotten, cheating, stealing, filthy, sanctimonious, authoritarian, ratfucking republican.

[moriah]

33. In the 2008 primaries, the unpledged delegates...

... looked at how many pledged delegates each had, saw Obama was the clear winner there, and enough changed their initial endorsement to make sure he got the nomination threshold.

I have no doubt that will happen this time around too -- if neither get to the threshold for nomination purely through pledged delegates and there is a clear winner, they will alter enough early endorsements to reflect the will of the Party. I'm more concerned about a dead tie, but hopefully that won't happen.

[peacebird]

34. I will vote for whoever I feel is best to lead the country.

Good enough?

I will NOT vote for lesser of two evils ever again.

[Kelvin Mace]

37. Amen!

[VulgarPoet]

35. No oligarchs, no dynasties.

For America will not be free until the last oligarch is strangled with the entrails of the last plutocrat. Slight re-wording of a Diderot quote, but I find it works.

[Kelvin Mace]

36. Sorry, the lesser of two evils is still evil

If the people here and the DNC decide they want HRC as their nominee, they will have to elect her without my vote.

[peacebird]

42. Exactly!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

40. I like both of them and will happily vote for either. That McCarthy comment was very snarky btw.

Sad that someone would respond that way to someone trying to unite people and reach out. We are called DEMOCRATIC Underground for a reason.

[moriah]

58. I'm not even asking for people to stop debate or stop working their hearts out for...

...their preferred issues or candidates.

I'm not even asking for wholehearted support, volunteering, donating, etc, because some just won't be able to make GOTV calls for a nominee they truly don't like and them be effective.

I will happily take up a collection to distribute clothespins if needed in November... but please... just vote Democratic!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

69. I'm sorry you were treated so rudely for trying to be collegial.

Some very aggressive behavior is being exhibited here at times.

[Fawke Em]

41. Nope.

No more corporate Dems, thank you.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

50. Cannot believe all the Sanders supporters who say they won't vote Democratic.

Very disappointing. I don't know what has happened to this board. This place is depressing. Have been here since the beginning and haven't ever seen it so bad.

[PonyUp]

52. I'm looking and don't see a post where they won't vote Democratic. Which one? n/t

[VulgarPoet]

55. To them, "voting democratic" means if HRC is the nominee

then we sell our consciences to the highest bidder and lay down in front of the machine. Better stuck between the teeth and stopping it than getting run over by it.

[moriah]

64. The people getting "bought by the highest bidder" are the GOP machine, not HRC. Links!

If you don't believe me....

Outside Spending by group. All but $10k of negative advertising against Democrats was Republican-funded, and that was O'Malley's SuperPAC against Sanders.

The top disclosed people doing the buying: On the Democratic side, we have George Soros and Cheryl and Haim Saban, accounting for $13 million of the $15 million quoted by Bernie as being the "Wall Street dark money" donations to Clinton, were donations to Priorities USA Action. They are all three well-known liberals, and that SuperPAC spent over $65 million in 2012 against Romney. (Five million went to an environmental PAC that I haven't seen running any ads yet.) Another $1.5 million to Priorities USA Action that could be considered to be from Wall Street, though again from a known Democratic Party supporter, with the other $500k from him going to the House Majority PAC, which runs ads against Republican candidates for the House. The Sandler Foundation donated to Priorities USA Action as well, along with a Jewish philanthropist focusing his efforts on early childhood development, the Barbara Lee Family Foundation (not affiliated with the distinguished Representative from California), Pat Stryker, and the owner of a satellite communications company account for their million+ donors, plus Stephen Spielberg and another person from DreamWorks.

Despite all that cash, Priorities USA Action ran about $450k in ads. As you can see from that link, most of the airtime has been attacks against Republicans that admit the organization currently endorses Hillary, but it's obvious they are holding back their main cash for the General Election, for attacks against the GOP nominee.

On the Republican side, there's a great graphic app that shows the GOP machine, in comparison to (even counting Priorities USA Action) the "Clinton Machine": Zoom out, then increase the number of nodes.

[Bradical79]

59. Most aren't saying they won't vote Democratic

Just they won't take a loyalty pledge. The vote is a long way away. If they look at Clinton and feel she will actively harm their situation in life, it's hard to blame some for staying home in November.

[NaturalHigh]

51. I don't take pledges. Want my vote? Earn it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Here is a pro tip

the vote is secret in the United States. Capiche?

Good.

Who people vote for is their business.

[Bradical79]

54. Right now, I'm not 100%, but I'd say I most likely will

But it could be the last time. We'll see.

[Beacool]

56. I'm not taking a pledge, but I will vote for the Democratic nominee.

The alternative is too frightening to behold. Trump? Rubio? Cruz?

[Jokerman]

57. I prefer to keep my options open.

There is almost a 100% chance that I will support the democratic nominee but I'm already appalled at the campaign Clinton is running. I can take the "hold your nose and vote for the lesser of two evils" strategy only so far.

[JudyM]

61. This is the thing: we Sanders supporters want a fair primary process.

She -and her PACs, media and the DNC - are doing underhanded things ranging from outright lies to messing with the voting process.

She is engaging in exactly the kind of asymmetrical, unethical political power-wielding that makes us want to choose Sanders. Speaking for myself, I was on the fence until a couple of months ago, and until a couple of weeks ago I wouldn't even consider not voting for her if she beats Sanders.

Because of her playing such dirty pool in the primary process, as well as her flagrant conflicts of interests (which, especially as a lawyer she should know better -- this puts her in the same league as Scalia in terms of ethics (not her platform, just her ethics). I've become truly disgusted with her and entertained the thought of whether I could bring myself to vote for her in the GE. I probably will but I am truly, thoroughly, disgusted.

She needs to start playing fair. Period.

[moriah]

70. Her PACs? You mean Obama's PAC?

What do you have against Politics USA Action's paltry $450k in ad spending for ads like these? Considering the $15 million from people like George Soros, Cheryl and Haim Saban, etc, and the $65 million spent against Romney by that group in 2012, I think it's safe to say if she loses all that money goes to help Bernie, even if he requests that they just attack and not say Vote Bernie at the end....

Correct The Record? Yes, pro-Hillary, but underhanded in their major spending?

As for things people have claimed about them, if you like and trust news reports that seem to be original articles (because of a lack of reference to who broke the story) with no names mentioned as being quoted directly... especially when the alleged source is "a Democrat familiar with his thinking who was not authorized to preview any strategy"...

Or allegations that Clinton plans to attack Bernie on Israel from an independent reporter with [http://forward.com/news/333208/after-bernie-sanders-landslide-in-new-hampshire-team-hillary-plans-fightbac|The Forward] (I can't tell from the quotes if Paul Hodas knew he was speaking to a reporter or was just stating his and his wife's opinions in response to an unbadged reporter's question at a post primary event they attended with his recorder on), which were very quickly denied, and the article criticized as bad reporting by a more experienced author at The Forward....

Or believing that it's a Clinton conspiracy to bring Bernie down that the only non-incumbent Democratic Party primary caucuses in NV were this year and in 2008 (in 2012 they were also during the Sabbath, but it didn't seem to be an issue for people) and have all been on Saturday near noon?

Personally, on that I would like to see a rabbinical opinion about whether the "to save a life" exception applies to elections held on the Sabbath. I think we all agree that MANY lives are at stake in our elections. If so, get the message out now! No voter should be suppressed, but it's not a secret plan hatched eight years ago to keep Bernie out of the White House if he ever chose to run.

Let me look at who else has been spending money for and against her....

We have things like this.

That's not from Bernie, any more than this ad was paid for by "the Clinton Machine":

-----

But as for the campaign official ads, my two least favorites:

(I know Bernie intends to protect the ACA even if he can't get his Medicare for All plan through immediately, though calling Planned Parenthood and the other HRC "part of the establishment" is true, he decided to vote for what his constituents wanted on the Brady Bill, and I don't know where she's getting Bernie ignoring foreign policy)

(which is certainly an awful lot more like Rove's ad above than the previous one:

so you can't say he isn't learning from the other side....)

----

And my two favorites:

[John Poet]

62. I've never decided how I'm going to vote in a November general election

in February of that year, and I don't intend to start now.


That said, I have always supported the Democratic nominee since 1984,
but I never promised to do it in February or any other month.

What I ultimately do may depend on what happens during the course of the campaign.
I do know that I'll never vote for a Republican.

[mak3cats]

63. I can safely say I will vote Democratic...

...but I reserve the right to withhold my vote if I think it's unearned properly.

[winter is coming]

65. Fuck loyalty oaths. n/t

[PeaceNikki]

71. I will proudly support either as our nominee. It's not a loyalty oath, it's common sense.

SCOTUS is too damn important to fool with to me. Reproductive freedom, health care and marriage equality will be serious jeopardy in the hands of the GOP.

[Warren DeMontague]

72. The pledges are tiresome, but I've always said I'll support the nominee.