2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumIs Bernie's General Economic Focus a Trickle-Down
proposition for people of color and other minority groups? It looks to me like it sort of is. If economic conditions improve in general, the benefits will trickle down to help people who are more adversely affected by economic conditions that the majority of Americans.
This may be a flaw in the campaign's thinking.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)in that he believes in economic determinism. Class outweighs all. Race, Gender -- as structures of oppression -- are not fundamental. They will evaporate when class evaporates.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)That can be a very slow, and often clumsy, process for helping those who are the most affected by economic concerns.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)They all go hand in hand.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)surely you must have links to Bernie's Marxist dissertations given the declarative nature of your post, so please provide them.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Just listen to the way he talks and educate yourself a little bit about political and economic theory.
He sounds very much like what's called an economic determinist in political economy circles. Economic determinism was was key ingredient of Marxist theory.
It's not a bad thing being an economic determinist. Lots of people think "class antagonism" is more fundamental than, say, racial antagonism. That means that if you solve the class conflict, the other conflicts will wither away and that you can't address the other conflicts fruitfully without addressing class conflict.
People who reject economic determinism think that racial conflict may be to a degree independent of class conflict and that overcoming class antagonism (by eliminating class essentially) will not necessarily bring about the end of other forms of antagonism in its way.
Bernie seems much more on the determinist side than not.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)kennetha
(3,666 posts)who can think for himself and see beneath the canned rhetoric and doesn't drink anybody's Kool-aid.
And you?
Avalux
(35,015 posts)The new Clinton meme that Bernie only cares about Class and not race or gender is complete fucking bullshit.
Stop spreading lies dammit.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)the point was about which is more fundamental. which you need to address first.
You can believe x is more fundamental than y and needs to be addressed in order to address y, and still care about both x and y.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Sort of the same thing, really. They sound good, but always seem to leave some people out of the process. Some people drown when the tide rises and some just get soaking wet when things trickle down. It's not an even process, nor universal.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Are we against the most basic liberal principles these days?
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)LexVegas
(6,067 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... much better than I could have.
cali
(114,904 posts)Bernie has been fighting for it for decades.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)And I thought you were smarter than this, MM. It rings racist.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I have seen the unemployment rates here in Minnesota, broken down by all sorts of demographic criteria. They tell a somewhat unequal story, depending on who you are.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Hello?
LexVegas
(6,067 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)"A rising tide lifts all boats" is not the same as "Give the rich more money, and they might send some your way."
mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)As a matter of fact, if economic conditions improve in general, like you observe, most likely all the benefits will go where they are going right now. To the people Sanders is arguing against.
Trickle down, actually, is just a restatement of the "idea" that a rising tide raises all boats. Unfortunately that doesn't really work in a system rigged to keep the wealth at the top. If it was allowed to "trickle down" it might work, just like the rising tide cliche.
Fact is, nothing trickles...
Really and truly, MM. I like your posts a lot but I really think we are living in different worlds. This is not an academic exercise.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)how the campaign is thinking, so it isn't a flaw.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)There is some flawed thinking here, but it isn't from the Sanders Campaign.
For example, fighting for a $15.00 minimum wage will directly help those working for seven or eight bucks an hour now. A disproportionate number of whom are minorities.
Also, his insistence on universal health care coverage will help the least fortunate within our society. Again a disproportionate number of whom are minorities.
At this point I will ask a question that Clinton supporters never answer. How will Hillary extend coverage to people without valid identification? Medicaid requires that you apply for it and then prove that you qualify. Homeless persons and undocumented immigrants can't do that. So please explain why thinking Hillary can achieve universal coverage through "tweeks" in the ACA isn't believing in unicorns?
Then there is justice reform and undoing what Bill Clinton signed into law. What chance is there of Hillary damaging Bill's legacy by undoing what he has done?
Bernie's policies directly help those who need it most. No secondary effect needed.
cali
(114,904 posts)That makes it nothing but a smear.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Do you have one?
cali
(114,904 posts)You framed an accusation in the form of a question. Claiming it was an innocent question is the height of disingenuous nonsense. And it's quite a habit with you.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)GDP is nearly 70% consumer spending. What increases consumer spending increases the GDP. This was accepted economic theory until the time of Reagan. Under Reagan, the idea of supply side economics was created to provide justification for decreasing taxes on the very rich.
The theory was that increasing money for the rich would somehow cause the rich to create more businesses. How this would happen, and why, was never explained. And the media, the so-called liberal media, said nothing. The media presented this unsupported and illogical theory as a great idea.
The result has been numerous "bubble economy" crises, a massive upward redistribution of income, a decline in manufacturing jobs, and a lessening of living standards.
So under the "trickle up" theory that I am naming, a $15 dollar an hour wage would create an immediate surge in spending. Spending trillions on infrastructure would create millions of jobs, again providing a surge in spending. Providing Medicare for all would free people from the fear of medical bankruptcy, creating a surge in confidence.
How do we fund the infrastructure spending? Three ways. First, tax all income, earned and unearned, for Social Security and Medicare. Second, return to the GOP supported tax rates that existed in the Eisenhower years. Third, withdraw from trade agreements that do nothing for workers and everything for the 1%.
Another thing to consider would be to subject the Pentagon Budget to the same cost-benefit analysis and scrutiny that is given to programs that benefit workers.
What do you think?
angrychair
(8,702 posts)From the OP to the first couple of post, you are dramatically ill-informed on Sanders' policy positions.
FYI nice red-baiting with the "Marxist" comment.
Sanders has proposed specific programs that have specific goals.
Some benefit everyone, regardless of income or any other demographic. Many of these programs are targeted to benefit the poor and middle-class, regardless of race. Some are specific to issues that disproportionately impact people of color or females or LGBTQ, like incarceration rates, police brutality and unfair practices in healthcare, education, housing and hiring.
If you are really willing to learn that go to his website or Google. If you have a very specific concern or question, I will be glad to help or point you in the right direction.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Try the democratic socialist gush across flow.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)...and he also says we need to address institutional racism along with economic justice. He discusses all 5 areas at the link,
https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/
Economic Violence
{snip}
But what King saw in 1968 and what we all should recognize today is that it is necessary to try to address the rampant economic inequality while also taking on the issue of societal racism. We must simultaneously address the structural and institutional racism which exists in this country, while at the same time we vigorously attack the grotesque level of income and wealth inequality which is making the very rich much richer while everyone else especially those in our minority communities are becoming poorer.
{snip}
Communities of color also face the violence of economic deprivation. Lets be frank: neighborhoods like those in west Baltimore, where Freddie Gray resided, suffer the most. However, the problem of economic immobility isnt just a problem for young men like Freddie Gray. Despite hard-work and the will to get ahead, millions of Americans spend their entire lives struggling to survive on the economic treadmill.
{snip}
Most black and Latino households have less than $350 in savings. The black unemployment rate has remained roughly twice as high as the white rate over the last 40 years, regardless of education. Real African-American youth unemployment is over 50 percent. African-American women earn 64 cents for every dollar white men make. This is unacceptable. The American people in general want change they want a better deal. A fairer deal. A new deal. They want an America with laws and policies that truly reward hard work with economic mobility. They want an America that affords all of its citizens with the economic security to take risks and the opportunity to realize their full potential.
Addressing Economic Violence
We need to give our children, regardless of their race or income, a fair shot at attending college. Thats why all public universities should be made tuition free. We should pay for that with a tax on Wall Street speculators.
We must invest $5.5 billion to create 1 million jobs for disadvantaged young Americans who face high unemployment rates and job-training opportunities for hundreds of thousands of young adults. We should pay for that by ending the loophole allowing Wall Street hedge fund managers to pay a lower tax rate than nurses or truck drivers.
We must increase the minimum wage to a livable wage of $15 an hour by 2020 which will increase the wages of about half of African-Americans and nearly 60 percent of Latinos.
We must invest $1 trillion to put 13 million Americans to work rebuilding our crumbling cities, roads, bridges, public transportation systems, airports, drinking water systems and other infrastructure needs. We should pay for that by closing offshore tax loopholes.
We must pass federal legislation to ensure pay equity for women.
We must prevent employers from discriminating against applicants based on criminal history by banning the box.
We must promote policies to give the formerly incarcerated an opportunity for education, including expanding the Second Chance Pell Pilot Program and reentry programs.
We need to ensure access to quality affordable childcare for working families, especially for parents who work non-traditional hours.
We must fundamentally re-write our trade policies and rebuild factories that were closed as a result of bad trade deals.
think
(11,641 posts)Because that is the heart of "trickle down" economics:
Policies, including tax cuts, that seek to increase saving are often aimed at the wealthy for this reason.[8] All else equal, an exogenous rise in the amount of money saved results in some form of investment in a healthy economy, as it will increase the supply of deposits at banks will reduce the price of borrowing for both the corporate and the household sector, stimulating investment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics
Bernie is pushing for a living wage, single payer healthcare coverage, affordable college education, How is this "trickle down"?
Orsino
(37,428 posts)The rising-tide analogy is a scam when touted by trickle-downers.
A real rising tide would lift all boats, and Sanders' agenda most closely resembles one. Your concern, however, is valid if there is no (or insufficient) corresponding broadening of opportunities.
aspirant
(3,533 posts)Trickle down = the downward lowly path of greed and lawlessness for the financial maniacs that have relished the billions trickling downward into their coffers for years.
Rising = the minimum wage, income equality, etc that lifts the Revolutionary people upward into the realms of righteousness.