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Cassiopeia

(2,603 posts)
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 03:46 AM Feb 2016

The Biggest reason I just can't #FeelTheBern (The Fetishization of Not Knowing)

The Biggest reason I just can't #FeelTheBern (The Fetishization of Not Knowing)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-kushner/the-fetishization-of-not-knowing-bernie-sanders_b_9195124.html

The Fetishization of Not Knowing

Daniel Kushner
PhD Candidate in Political Science at Brown University

I began this campaign as a Hillary fan who respected Bernie Sanders and what he had to say about the economy and U.S. politics. I'm not surprised that this message has appealed to so many people, both those I know, and those I don't, in part because it's something which has gotten less attention than it has deserved, even if there are problems with elements of it.

In my calmer moments, I think that the Sanders campaign might represent a positive shift for the discussion of certain topics within the Democratic Party and the broader populace. Listening to him over the past year, however, I began to increasingly believe that for all the positive things his campaign represents, it also represents something deeply problematic: a fetishization of not knowing.

For me, this probably began with the discussion over foreign policy. I spend a decent amount of my time being horrified by the genocide in Syria, and how the instability that seems to be pouring out of that country may produce horrifying outcomes in states ranging from Turkey to Lebanon to Western Europe. I think there is space for multiple proposals about what we do now, and though I'm sympathetic to much of what Obama is doing and Hillary is suggesting continuing, I would have thought a liberal candidate for the presidency would have been talking about the need for increased foreign aid, or greater openness to refugees, or, well, something.

Instead, his primary comment on international affairs seems to be to reiterate and reiterate and reiterate that he had voted against the Iraq War in 2002. When forced to discuss other matters, he quickly bobbles. In the most recent debate, he seemed unsure about whether North Korea has a single or multiple dictators, and then managed to take both positions in a matter of minutes about whether the U.S. should negotiate without preconditions with other countries.

Now, Bernie Sanders is not the first candidate to not be an expert on even something as significant as foreign affairs. But what's deeply troublesome here is how he seems to have no respect for knowledge on it. It's visible in the almost-disdain he expresses for Hillary Clinton's experience on the matter. She had been Secretary of State for four years, but he has been in Congress for more than two decades. Exactly when does he think he'll have sufficient experience to speak fluently on foreign policy?

Even more disconcerting has been his apparent unwillingness to find advisers to help bridge the gap. It was only 15 years ago that Democrats mocked George Bush Jr.'s disinterest in foreign policy; he at least had the courtesy to be embarrassed by what he didn't know, and hired a staff, including professors of international relations and former Secretaries of Defense, to help. They proved to provide much terrible advice, but there was at least an effort to appear informed. Sanders hasn't done so.

But foreign policy isn't a crucial part of the Sanders campaign. Health care, though, is. Five years ago, Sanders proposed a universal health care bill that failed to get any co-sponsors. When he was reticent to provide information about what plan he was proposing now, the Clinton campaign started to criticize that bill. In response, Sanders withdrew his support of that bill, meaning it now had zero support. Shortly before the Iowa caucuses, Sanders proposed a new plan, which was written by Gerald Friedman, a professor of economics at U-Mass Amherst, whose research focused on the history of the labor union movement in France and the U.S. The plan would cost in the area of $14 trillion over 10 years (for reference, Obamacare was projected to cost in the vicinity of $800 billion over that same time period).

Kenneth Thorpe, a professor of health policy at Emory, whose research is on the cost of medical programs, and has advised the Democrats in the Vermont State Legislature when they sought to pass a single-payer plan, noted that the plan promised savings in the area of $324 billion a year from prescription drugs, which would have been impressive, considering Americans spend only in the vicinity of $305 billion a year.

When the Sanders campaign was presented with this disparity, as well as others, they quickly attacked Thorpe, and then changed their numbers to acknowledge $444 billion per year of increased costs, but also, instantaneously, magically, found the same number of savings elsewhere. This is not how somebody tries to suggest a serious effort to improve the deeply problematic health care plan in the U.S.

This disrespect for expertise is also manifest in how Sanders speaks about the establishment. Recently, when Planned Parenthood and the Human Rights Campaign endorsed Clinton, he referred to their leadership as being parts of the establishment. They are, to be sure, members of an establishment. They're members of the liberal Democratic establishment that has been promoting, sometimes intelligently and other times not, sometimes effectively and other times less so, liberal ideals for decades.

For efforts to promote human rights, these are the people one would expect to have the most understanding of how to do so. One of the fascinating things about this campaign has been seeing how so many of those who should know Bernie Sanders the best, and have worked the hardest on what would appear to be his issues, have been so eager to oppose him. He spent more than a decade in the House; of the 188 Democrats there now, two endorsed him, and 157 endorsed Hillary.

Sanders serves in the U.S. Senate with 45 Democratic-voting colleagues; not only have none endorsed him, but 39 have endorsed Hillary. Sanders has been a significant figure in Vermont politics for four decades. Patrick Leahy, his fellow Senator from Vermont, endorsed Hillary. The incumbent governor of Vermont, and two former Democratic governors of Vermont, endorsed Hillary.

Sanders has focused on issues relating to the labor movement; virtually every single major labor union has endorsed Hillary Clinton. For contrast, in the 2008 campaign, many of these people waited until a few primaries had been held before endorsing. This time, there is almost glee in their desire to make their views known.

Again and again, when the Sanders campaign learns of these moves, the emphasis is on their being parts of the establishment. And they are parts of an establishment. But if this establishment is the enemy, then on whose side is he?

____________________________________________________________________________

Yes, I'm stealing this from the HRC group so we can all comment.

Change is hard, especially when we're being given an option to focus our resources on ourselves.

40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Biggest reason I just can't #FeelTheBern (The Fetishization of Not Knowing) (Original Post) Cassiopeia Feb 2016 OP
And that in a post is my big issue with Sanders Recursion Feb 2016 #1
Have you caught a "there there" from Clinton? Cassiopeia Feb 2016 #2
Yeah, a "there" that I don't particularly like Recursion Feb 2016 #5
Well Cassiopeia Feb 2016 #6
Everyone loved Obama's 'change' philosophy, so what's wrong with Bernies'? PonyUp Feb 2016 #23
Strong Sanders supporter here. But I like your train of thought. How KingCharlemagne Feb 2016 #28
@ Recursion serbbral Feb 2016 #31
geeze bkkyosemite Feb 2016 #32
I'm done being friendly about this. Neither of these two should have run Recursion Feb 2016 #35
Was there a there there when Sanders was arrested protesting against racially segregated housing KingCharlemagne Feb 2016 #26
Maybe. I was -13 years old at that point and don't really care (nt) Recursion Feb 2016 #27
But I think you would agree that racially segregated housing is immoral and KingCharlemagne Feb 2016 #33
yep. nt ecstatic Feb 2016 #40
Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State promoted the Libya War and promoted fracking. Eric J in MN Feb 2016 #3
No, it's not. Cassiopeia Feb 2016 #4
The fetishization of not knowing what she will do once in the White House Betty Karlson Feb 2016 #15
Don't forget supporting the coup against the democratically elected President of Honduras jfern Feb 2016 #18
I don't understand how any grandparent could be so damned KingCharlemagne Feb 2016 #38
Troubling final paragraph. oh08dem Feb 2016 #7
I would suggest reading about his experiences as Mayor Armstead Feb 2016 #8
The more I read the more I believe madokie Feb 2016 #11
We can also research the things his current colleagues say. Cassiopeia Feb 2016 #12
Well, according to Sanders, his very ambitious agenda will come to pass Beacool Feb 2016 #9
Our other option is Cassiopeia Feb 2016 #10
No, you have not angrychair Feb 2016 #14
IMO. OZi Feb 2016 #17
Better to encoursge involvement than "leave it up to us" complacency and fatalism Armstead Feb 2016 #21
Is there a limit to how much you can quote? left-of-center2012 Feb 2016 #13
Right. And it's strange that nobody bvf Feb 2016 #20
Wow, excellent read... Satch59 Feb 2016 #16
I don't see how voting for more status quo will change the status quo. OZi Feb 2016 #19
So we're supposed to sit here and just accept that the brick wall will be permnanent? Armstead Feb 2016 #22
No not accept the brick wall... Satch59 Feb 2016 #24
You set goals, fight for them, when compromise is necessary fight to do it on your terms. Armstead Feb 2016 #25
I see why "no we can't" is your candidate of choice. A good match! Kip Humphrey Feb 2016 #30
Meh. The rightward lurch of the Democratic Party. earthside Feb 2016 #29
A strategy among the Corporate Elite is to make subjects overly complicated Armstead Feb 2016 #34
Comedy Gold olddots Feb 2016 #36
Very thought-provoking. Thanks for posting. I would merely KingCharlemagne Feb 2016 #37
Bernie has 10 times more experience in dealing with foreign affairs than Obama Zorra Feb 2016 #39

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
1. And that in a post is my big issue with Sanders
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 03:53 AM
Feb 2016

I get that bromides are what bring in volunteers and donors; I get that he has to do this because of the kind of campaign he's running. In some ways I even admire it because that's probably what it would take to beat Trump or Cruz (set a demagogue to catch a demagogue...) But I've never yet seen a moment when Sanders was talking and I got the feeling that there was a "there" there, behind the slogans.

Cassiopeia

(2,603 posts)
2. Have you caught a "there there" from Clinton?
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 03:55 AM
Feb 2016

Bernie has a lot more to offer than the weathervane caught in a shitnado.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
5. Yeah, a "there" that I don't particularly like
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 03:59 AM
Feb 2016

I don't think either candidate would be a very good President, and I think either would face an extremely tough climb to win in November, I'm furious that the field was so narrow to begin with, and as of now I'm trying to decide whose baggage is going to take less insane amounts of work to drag across the finish line to 270 electoral votes 271 days from now, and every day both campaigns find new ways to depress me more.

Cassiopeia

(2,603 posts)
6. Well
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:03 AM
Feb 2016

We have the option of potential change or a return to the idea that profits for corporations through foreign policy being the only goal.

Seems pretty simple to me.

I guess we have a final option of the profit through foreign policy while destroying homeland rights as well, but maybe that's what it will take to ignite change.

 

PonyUp

(1,680 posts)
23. Everyone loved Obama's 'change' philosophy, so what's wrong with Bernies'?
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 10:46 AM
Feb 2016

To me, there wasn't much change done by Obama, and Hillary says she wants to continue this?

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
28. Strong Sanders supporter here. But I like your train of thought. How
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 11:37 AM
Feb 2016

pathetic is it that Dems allowed HRC to cow them into not running?

serbbral

(260 posts)
31. @ Recursion
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 11:45 AM
Feb 2016

I am feeling you! I am beginning to think that neither could win also. I wish we had more democratic candidates.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
35. I'm done being friendly about this. Neither of these two should have run
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 11:53 AM
Feb 2016

We had potentially O'Malley, Gillebrand, Patrick, Booker, Villaraigosa, Schweitzer, Castro, Tester, Beshear, Guttierez, Sebelius, Wolf... how the fuck did we wind up with the two candidates who are still literally arguing about stuff from a half century ago?

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
26. Was there a there there when Sanders was arrested protesting against racially segregated housing
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 11:35 AM
Feb 2016

in 1963?

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
33. But I think you would agree that racially segregated housing is immoral and
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 11:49 AM
Feb 2016

un-American, even if you say you "don't really care." To me, Sanders not only was on the right side of history and morality, he was willing to put his ass on the line for that side. That is a pretty significant "there" to me.

As an educator, Sanders' proposal for free tuition at public colleges and universities has captured my imagination on behalf of what it will mean for youth.

Liberation!

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
3. Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State promoted the Libya War and promoted fracking.
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 03:56 AM
Feb 2016

It's not experience to be proud of.

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
15. The fetishization of not knowing what she will do once in the White House
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:25 AM
Feb 2016

is taking on extreme forms. Hence the OP.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
18. Don't forget supporting the coup against the democratically elected President of Honduras
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:35 AM
Feb 2016

And then supporting deporting all of the resulting child refugees.

oh08dem

(339 posts)
7. Troubling final paragraph.
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:04 AM
Feb 2016

It's as though he can't see the forest from the trees, for instance just because the leadership of those groups decides to throw their weight behind a certain candidate doesn't mean the rank-and-file don't have different tastes. So, to put it bluntly, Bernie is on the people's side, not the leadership within the establishment that almost always takes the path of least resistance; mostly due to the fact their positions are dependent (or at least they think) on it.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
8. I would suggest reading about his experiences as Mayor
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:06 AM
Feb 2016

He got the same rap when he was running but he surprised everyone at what an effective leader he turned out to be.

He brought in smart and competent people.and built broadly based coslitions, and was able to work effectively with "the estsblishment" to get things done.

Mayor is not president but same job on a different scale

madokie

(51,076 posts)
11. The more I read the more I believe
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:15 AM
Feb 2016

Sen Sanders is cut out for the job of President
I feel comfortable with him being my first choice.

Beacool

(30,250 posts)
9. Well, according to Sanders, his very ambitious agenda will come to pass
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:07 AM
Feb 2016

because the people will uprise and a political revolution will ensue that will flip Congress. Fairy tales are more reality based than Sanders' contingency plan.

I've never seen anything like it.

Cassiopeia

(2,603 posts)
10. Our other option is
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:14 AM
Feb 2016

Nothing can change, so why even try.

Yeah, that's an awesome platform for the GE.

angrychair

(8,700 posts)
14. No, you have not
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:22 AM
Feb 2016

Because it isn't about him, it is about us. If any of these things are going to pass, we have to want it.

Given a 97% incumbency rate and the fact the common person has almost zero ability to access their own Congressperson, people forget they work for us and they are there to serve our interest.

As a group, millions of us have amazing political influence. Especially when we are standing on your front lawn.

OZi

(155 posts)
17. IMO.
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:31 AM
Feb 2016

Issues that have mattered the most to me as long as I've been able to vote are finally being brought out into the spotlight. I truly believe that if Bernie wasn't in the race, those issues would have once again been swept under the rug and forgotten about.

Seeing one candidate be able to change the narrative and the national debate to the point that I heard our President address many of those same issues today in Springfield, Illinois seems pretty amazing to me. Maybe not revolutionary yet, but it is a start and I'll take it.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
20. Right. And it's strange that nobody
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 06:25 AM
Feb 2016

mentioned this in the HRC group's thread. (Then again, pointing it out over there might run the risk of getting blocked.)

Satch59

(1,353 posts)
16. Wow, excellent read...
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:26 AM
Feb 2016

Not much to add, confirms my support for Hillary... While a "political revolution" is a nice idealistic mantra, it's impossible, considering the bricks walls in congress and Bernie I think knows that...

OZi

(155 posts)
19. I don't see how voting for more status quo will change the status quo.
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:51 AM
Feb 2016

What is the point of having a democracy at this point? The seats may change but the special interests and cronies stay the same.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
22. So we're supposed to sit here and just accept that the brick wall will be permnanent?
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 10:42 AM
Feb 2016

That's a totally dispiriting attitude that will ensure GOP domination long into the future if the Democratic Partty continues to act like "Why bother?" defeatists.

Satch59

(1,353 posts)
24. No not accept the brick wall...
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 11:26 AM
Feb 2016

But be more realistic, Obama had great ideas but found quickly that everything will be faced with a no, so he reworked and he would get a piece of something or would try some version on his own through executive action but always watered down.

If Bernie wins the nomination, I will fully support him, just think his rhetoric is too idealistic...a few steps beyond Obama's dreams and feel frustrated that more trouble is ahead.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
25. You set goals, fight for them, when compromise is necessary fight to do it on your terms.
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 11:34 AM
Feb 2016

IMO, President Obama became bolder and more outspoken as he realized the recalcitrance of the GOP.

I think that realizing that they were going to keep up the brick walls freed him to be more honest and outspoken and call out the GOP and play hardball, such as executive actions. And to stop trying to become like the GOP to placate the GOP.

I prefer the latter Obama, and think more would have gotten done if he had started with that attitude.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
29. Meh. The rightward lurch of the Democratic Party.
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 11:41 AM
Feb 2016

A rationalization for a Democratic Party not much different than the Repuglican Party is all I'm getting out of this article.

But then, that seems to be the whole point of the Hillary Clinton candidacy: enabling the one percent with a 'liberal' face.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
34. A strategy among the Corporate Elite is to make subjects overly complicated
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 11:50 AM
Feb 2016

Free Trade Agreements are a perfect example.

They make them so convoluted and complicated that the average person gets bamboozled. When people who do know the intricacies point out the Big Picture that they contain a lot of bad things, the response is "You're oversimplifying the issue."

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
37. Very thought-provoking. Thanks for posting. I would merely
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 11:58 AM
Feb 2016

note that "experts" got us into Vietnam, so I'm not sure how much of a premium to place on "expertise"

ETA: Oh yeah, and experts also gave us 3-Mile Island and Chernobyl.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
39. Bernie has 10 times more experience in dealing with foreign affairs than Obama
Thu Feb 11, 2016, 12:10 PM
Feb 2016

and Bill Clinton combined when they began their campaigns. Fail.

It seems that the author is out of touch with everyday people. We know who Bernie Sanders is. He was speaking to us, in Town Hall/Fireside Chat type format on the "Brunch With Bernie" segment of Thom Hartmann's radio, and later his TV show, almost every week, for many years. Bernie was telling us all about the workings of government, and his ideas for change, on this show. Many Bernie supporters know more about Bernie than than they do about all the rest of Congress and President Obama combined. Because he actually took the time to speak to us on an equal level every week for many years.

Don't believe me? Here ya go:

https://www.freespeech.org/collection/brunch-bernie

The author is apparently a propagandist who doesn't really know jack shit about Bernie Sanders. The credibility of the OP essay is now at less than zero.

"But if this establishment is the enemy, then on whose side is he on?"

Duh.

He's on our side, and we are the 99%.


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