2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumCharles Blow: Stop Bernie-splaining to Black Voters
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/11/opinion/campaign-stops/stop-bernie-splaining-to-black-voters.html?_r=0Nice opinion piece
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Politics is about advocacy for candidates. Doesn't matter if black or white. Male or female. Someone gets too pushy or seems condescending, don't listen or just walk away. Doesn't matter if black or white, male or female.
It's that damn simple.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You say whatever you want no matter what anybody thinks. Thats fine. Do what you do but there are risks of offending large groups if you say too much.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)It is getting impossible not to offend large groups if one says anything about anything.
So you have to decide who you NEED
Armstead
(47,803 posts)As for politics Bernie needs all the votes he can get.
But according to you and Camp Clinton, there is no way he is getting the AA vote so it's irrelevant.
I prefer to think that people are individuals who think for themselves, and not merely as demographic units. But hey, if we want to intensify divisions and encourage people to be estranged from anyone outside of their own demographic category, there's nuthin I can do about it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I meant him not you personally
Armstead
(47,803 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)What we are being asked to do is to not discuss them just love bernie
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Not Hillary, not Bernie. They both do what they can on the issues they can.
The rest is outside the realm of simple politics.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Personally I think there ought to be more frank and comprehensive discussions about race nationally (and in groups and individuals), that go beyond platitudes and into the uncomfortable realms beyond "You'll just never understand."
But political campaigns are not designed for that kind of deep soul searching, beyond the issues that have to do with policies and platforms.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think they are the PERFECT PLACE
Armstead
(47,803 posts)But the OP is not addressing specific issues. In fact it seems top want to avoid them and giving anotehr variation of the Clinton "Let's not trying anything because the GOP alreadyu has us beat."
Black folks dont want to be betrayed by too much hoping, and Sanderss proposals, as good as they sound, can also sound too good to be true. There is a whiff of fancifulness.
Sorry but I believe we and outr candidates ought to all have bold goals for a better life for everyone, even if the odds at any given time are stacked. Giving up on that is one reason the GOP and their repressive and regressive policies keeps winning.
If that just makes me a silly white guy, so be it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I want my issues front and center just like you want yours. Mine get subordinated.
Response to bravenak (Reply #11)
Name removed Message auto-removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)View profile
And one day it'll come back to bite you in the ass. One day whites will just get fed up of the demands and extortion, and you'll be left alone to fend for yourselves. Then what will you do? Whites are your most important and powerful ally, and without us you're nothing.
And remember, if Hillary somehow wins the nomination, it'll be you who needs our vote. So far nobody has been able to give a good reason why anybody should go out and vote for Hillary rather than let a Republican in. You can't win a general election without us, so keep in that in mind while you're insulting people.
Hahahahahaha! You are hilarious!
randys1
(16,286 posts)who is willing to say out loud what I think is mumbled a lot in a lot of places.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's like they are happy to finally have somebody to say it to
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)nobody deserves that kind of shit
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)We have a constitutional right to be offended.
To be honest, there's nothing that any candidate's supporters can say to me that will turn me on or off to their candidate.
Goodnight.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It shows in his support what matters most to him by who is drawn to his message.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)His fix for mike brown and sandra bland sounded strange because it involved free college and jobs but he was enrolled and she was a graduate of a university.
His plans sound like he took them from BLM
He did not have blacks on staff until Seattle or right after netroots. Noticeng that we are absent and not reoresented is my number one gauge on how they will run things.
He discusses pre school and college but has nothing for black children insubstandard schools for those 13 years between so there is not plan to help our children recive the same education as white or wealthier children
Fails to understand how deeply racism affects the ability of blacks to even reciece foodstamps
Lacks a focus on institutional racism affirmative action type programs.
Is stuck back in a time I never lived in
Thinks that we will come to him that is the most infuriating part. No. Some will. Most will not.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)It's a long read, and I won't say that it addresses all issues, but it dies lay out some soecifics WRT LEOs.
Read it if you like...or not.
And this is just me, but I'd wager that he may understand racial prejudice from the perspective of being Jewish and having a good portion of his family wiped out in the Holocuast.
He understands it from that perspective I'd imagine, but that doesn't mean that he can truly walk in Michale Brown's or Sandra Bland's shoes any more than I could, or Hillary Clinton could.
He can empathize, though, and act on it politically.
I can't say that he has all the answers either. From your perspective he may have non, but to me he us the better candidate.
One of my issues, amongst many, WRT Hillary Clinton is that she took campaign contributions from the prision industry and only vowed to give it to charity after pressure from rights groups.
I could go on a tit 4 tat but it is our choice who we feel will help the country and our individual intrests the most.
...and my phone is about to die.
Goodnight.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #24)
Post removed
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)If you can't get over slights from random internet people.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)They go out of their way to be as nasty and ignorant as they possibly can to you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I have dealt with Bakersfield. Hell on earth.
Number23
(24,544 posts)racing around here branding you a "troll" at every conceivable opportunity were the biggest Manny Goldstein fans here.
The guy who absolutely DELIGHTED in antagonizing black people and women. He'd say something offensive, get called out, apologize-- and then do the same shit two days later. You have chosen to needle these folks and their privileged and often clueless perceptions of race in this country. And you continue to do this LONG after most of the minority voices here have left out of complete disgust or don't bother with these folks at all, feeling that they are not worth the effort to continue to bang our heads against the wall.
It's so utterly fascinating which "voice" folks have decided is needed/wanted around here. Absolutely fascinating.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Now? This is the biggest joke in the world.
And him a republican through reagan. Hmm. I think there is a connection.
I rather enjoy their indignation at the fact that blacks are not interested. The absolute refusal to listen to one word we say has finally cause them significant issues. Glory be.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)every time he'd try that crap. And that's when his ever present and ever itchy alert finger would suddenly fly into action.
Good times, man. Good times.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)of your telekinetic prowess.
MrWendel
(1,881 posts)Read me next!
betsuni
(25,538 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)And I don't have any hides if a discussion leads to something like that.
What is in bravenak's best interests, and why? And why do you think you are a greater authority of that than she is?
UtahLib
(3,179 posts)We've seen this baiting and harassing crap directed toward you and other AA members many times in the past. His assertion that he can read your mind or divine your motives is disturbing.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You are more than likely spot on.
Response to bravenak (Reply #18)
Name removed Message auto-removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)GinoD
103. Not everything revolves around blacks
View profile
And if you think we're going to let their selfishness sabotage Bernie's revolution, you've got another thing coming.
Blacks are a minority, and if they blow this for everyone, there will be hell to pay. Race relations will be at an all-time low.
Okay
Response to bravenak (Reply #105)
Name removed Message auto-removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)When Bernie wins the nomination, don't come crawling back and pretending that you were on his side all along. The answer to that will be "Not good enough bravenak". The same goes for your fellow Republicans/haters on www.hillarysupporters.com. They will never be welcome on DU again, and please tell them that. We will never forgive or forget their betrayal. You should all have backed Bernie from the start.
Click here to purchase valentine hearts!
I will expect no quarter!!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)if Sanders loses (the primary or the G/E), it will be Black folks fault!
But I never, for the life of me, would have expected the "there will be hell to pay. Race relations will be at an all-time low." threat, being posted by a progressive.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Thats what i expect when he loses
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Treat another adult as something less than equal and you get blowback. Advocacy is about speaking up for your subject. If you fail to be persuasive, you're not advocating well. And you're probably doing your cause more harm than good.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I can understand that feeling. Sometimes when you're voicing an opinion or making a suggestion, you have to be careful not to elicit that kind of emotion.
I'm obstinate and will just decide to fight
bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)does exactly to others what you claim it does to you.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)'Splaining is the new nigger.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)MrWendel
(1,881 posts)fucking this!
+1
brer cat
(24,577 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)a friendly, funny Black guy to make us feel good about ourselves about now.
Oh, by the way, I am a HUGE fan of yours, always have been, but now after that
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)You are offended by 'splaining? This is going to be a very difficult election season for you.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)gwheezie
(3,580 posts)I'm going to take one for the team.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)And blow picks an incredible quote from him. Especially loved the bit about the "Negro liberals."
Baldwin wrote that in 1948 before he moved to Paris and the black vote then (as now) was very much discussed.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)I have problems with PC culture myself but you would do well to take a few hints from them.
Oh and I alerted on a post off yours further down thread because it was vile.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)on the 'splain.
randys1
(16,286 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)betsuni
(25,538 posts)betsuni
(25,538 posts)I just ate seven barbecued chicken wings and three spareribs.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Seven? I love wings the best. And ribs. I wish I was doing that.
betsuni
(25,538 posts)Spareribs second.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Kicked and FUCKING rec'd
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Such elegant prose!
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)'white man's burden' immortalized by the famous Rudyard Kipling poem. First published in 1899. It saddens me that it's still prevalent among 'supposed' progressives.
PatrickforO
(14,577 posts)That's what I did.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Response to bravenak (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
UtahLib
(3,179 posts)Response to UtahLib (Reply #45)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
UtahLib
(3,179 posts)Nice try, though.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)gwheezie
(3,580 posts)It might be heart envy.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I wish I could care enough to ask what the problem is. I must lack something.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Waning, indeed!
Response to Number23 (Reply #60)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
Number23
(24,544 posts)There are posters who have openly admitted they deliberately post offensive and idiotic stuff for the recs. Which not only doesn't say great things about the people who've said that, it probably doesn't say good things about the rec'ing crews here either.
And funny enough, that 30 number probably correlates to the number of black posters that still bother to post here and a good number of our allies. So she's doing pretty good.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)mcar
(42,334 posts)I love bravenak's OPs. I find them informative and well sourced. And the ensuing melee can be enjoyable.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Recs! Recs! Recs!
mcar
(42,334 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Beacool
(30,250 posts)"This support for Clinton, particular among African-American voters, is for some perplexing and for others irritating.
I cannot tell you the number of people who have commented to me on social media that they dont understand this support. Dont black folks understand that Bernie best represents their interests? the argument generally goes. But from there, it can lead to a comparison between Sanders and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; to an assertion that Sanders is the Barack Obama that we really wanted and needed; to an exasperated black people are voting against their interests stance.
If only black people knew more, understood better, where the candidates stood now and over their lifetimes they would make a better choice, the right choice. The level of condescension in these comments is staggering."
This pretty much sums it up.
"Black folks dont want to be betrayed by too much hoping, and Sanderss proposals, as good as they sound, can also sound too good to be true. There is a whiff of fancifulness.
For instance, Sanders says that his agenda will require a Congress-flipping political revolution of like-minded voters, but so far, that revolution has yet to materialize. Just as in Iowa, in New Hampshire there were more voters or caucus goers making choices in the Republican contest than in the Democratic one. That, so far, sounds more like a Republican revolution."
They also get him on Twitter constantly. Follow him a watch them splain to Mr Blow day after day.
Beacool
(30,250 posts)They can't seem to understand why people won't jump in the Sanders' bandwagon. I like Blow's description of Sanders' proposals as being "fanciful". That's an apt description.
Tonight I saw Sanders on the Colbert show. Colbert questioned him on how he was going to accomplish his agenda and Sanders' response was his trite call for an uprising. It's just insane that a person running for president has a very ambitious agenda that is contingent on a "political revolution". Colbert quoted Jack Kennedy and asked Sanders if the revolution could turn violent. Sanders responded that he hoped not.
This is one crazy election year........
bravenak
(34,648 posts)See? Peter priniciple personified.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Thanks for sharing it bravenak!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Love his pieces.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)from a waitress friend who told me she wants to write in his style. She emailed him and he wrote her a really nice email back offering to assist her. I thought that was really cool.
She's mainly interested in what he was doing in his earlier pieces, where he'd analyze things by graphs & charts. She said it's a great way of imparting information.
This piece is outstanding.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Anyway, 'splaining is too much strain, since I sprained my 'splainer while training strangers to stain model trains.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Splain is the new black. Or whatever
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I knew I could count on you!
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Poor offenses. Good defenses.
I love your sense of humor.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Sometimes I just go into "say that ten times fast" mode. It's probably a wiring problem.
Truprogressive85
(900 posts)its not worth it
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm amusing
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Don't forget to talk to the hand.
MrWendel
(1,881 posts)shes fucking awesome.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)For instance, Sanders says that his agenda will require a Congress-flipping political revolution of like-minded voters, but so far, that revolution has yet to materialize. Just as in Iowa, in New Hampshire there were more voters or caucusgoers making choices in the Republican contest than in the Democratic one. That, so far, sounds more like a Republican revolution. If that trend holds for the rest of the primary season and into the general election, not only would Democrats not be likely pick up congressional seats, they could lose more of them.
Thats a stubborn fact emerging a reality and it is one that all voters, including black ones, shouldnt be simply told to discount.
Clinton acknowledges this reality and has a plan to deal with it, so that she can improve our lives even with the Congress we have, through incrementalism and deal making. We know incrementalism works in these sort of situations. It is how Obama has gotten things done, much to the disdain of some here. Sanders' all or nothing gambit may be inspiring to some, but it is too risky for those living on the edge, who need help now even if it is just a little help, and can't risk getting nothing--or worse, a GOP President.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Oh, shit, there I go, 'splainin' again.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)So I suppose that's a net gain of zero.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We have to have details and there are no plans that sound feasible without an ideological change in this nation
thereismore
(13,326 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I mean they are just politicians i have no idea why folks are so enamoured.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)Is that all it is? Would you be so unforgiving to ANY frontrunner out of principle/spite?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)that a politician might not be able to fulfill all their campaign rhetoric.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Also cracks me up when, on some really down to earth and easy to discuss topic, some roll in with 'Do not speak with them!' Like they're in a cult.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Free food! Free haircuts!! Just pretend you hate the sun!
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Sorry, I can't resist.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)signals to me that reading this opinion piece would be a worthless waste of time.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They might say fuck it, but they at least hear it.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Bonobo shoots! He scores!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He swears he's King of Comedy
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Even if you disagree, you can get a sense of where some people are coming from.
I happen to agree with the opinion piece. I know I'm not alone.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I won't read it because of that phrase.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I tend to ignore stuff that says 'is this the new meme?'
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2016, 12:42 PM - Edit history (1)
Clinton's cynical and manipulative abuse of identity politics to divide the 99% will not stop me from spreading the Gospel of Bernie.
Response to mhatrw (Reply #133)
Post removed
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,350 posts)I was not juror 7
On Thu Feb 11, 2016, 05:11 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo-blow-me
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1199738
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
What a cute work around to tell another poster to 'blow-me" over the top and a rude personal attack
JURY RESULTS
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Feb 11, 2016, 05:22 PM, and the Jury voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: So, I was on my way to work and got called to jury duty. After smoking some weed and drinking some alcohol, I STILL don't understand what this freakin post means. Maybe the poster should speak in english where someone, ANYONE, can understand what they said, besides the "blow me" part. I suggest the poster go sit in moms basement and think about their critical posting skills. Hide.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Please stop. The juvenile back and forth is not very becoming.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Yeah, "Blow me" seems a bit harsh, even during Primaries season.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Can Moderators move these Hillary/Bernie back and forth to DU Primaries?
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)That why i do not alert all the time
People make jokes and get hides.
The Polack MSgt
(13,190 posts)Sadly, I can't reply directly
That was brilliant Betsuni.
Jurist # 2, wow unintentional comedy gold
The Polack MSgt
(13,190 posts)Me for defending BHO too strenuously.
They told me and I quote "insisting that there never be any criticism is worship." That statement? It made my evening.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511205986#post12
SO - go forth and spread the Gospel just keep in mind that not everyone is a believer
femmedem
(8,203 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)PragmaticLiberal
(904 posts)mcar
(42,334 posts)jham123
(278 posts)Nor do "I" need to splain anything to anyone.....as usual, Hillary does a fine job "splaining" herself
" she used racially coded rhetoric to cast black children as animals. They are not just gangs of kids anymore, she said. They are often the kinds of kids that are called super-predators. No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If you cannot draw people to your candidate by their own virtues, why should he interest anyone not already with him?
If I am mad at my husband and think he sucks, does that mean I want to run off with the next strange man who makes me promises of true love and everlasting desire? No.
Just because she has issues, does not mean I want him instead. Trashing her does nothing but bore me to death.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)They get outdone by the sheer number of replies; the fact that you get those replies might as well say "instant milestones" which , to those with a brain, means "read this op and pay attention to what this person is trying to say." The fact that several people lost their temper, let their demons out of their keyboard, and got hid is a badge of honor, kind of like the way the Red baron would mark the side of his plane with a cross for every kill.
Now, if people let their emotions cool down, they could at least use the respectful tone, asking "well, what about this" or "what if that?", the classic TOOLS used to discuss and analyze life. Bravenak, based on private discussions, you pretty much know how I feel about certain candidates, but, I know that trying to ram shit down your throat is an easy way to lose, just like the Latinos yelling at me and calling me a race traitor for not supporting Cruz or Rubio turn ME off.
PS: if the above statement is wrong, please tell me.
I will add my rec, but honestly, in the utter hellhole that DU becomes every election year, I would not value them much. Now seeing the same people that howl in other groups finally lose it and get hid, or self hidden under "name Removed" or "post removed by poster", that is a sign that you are offending they that need to be offended.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)There is something going on and its not just here. I think the demographic changes are really having effects on people and their place in society. Some cannot handle it. They thunk they are losing something, power maybe. Authority. Importance.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)in addition to that. It is not just that the masses on all sides are felling disquieted, but that the tools the elites use to control people are out of control, like medicines that are useless against the new generation of a virus.
This can go two ways: one, people realize that, like it or not, they do have common enemies and common interests, and march right over people that try to use division to herd the cats. The other is the downfall of civilization as we know it.
Add in the fact that Global warming comes in, and that India and China (aka the vast majority of the world population under only TWO governments) are watching us kill ourselves, people of all sorts may be surprised to find that none of the various tribes and creeds that fought over the world are even able to weigh in.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,350 posts)can anyone Hillary-splain the "Black Voters'" preference for Hillary? If, that is, it's real?
What has she done to earn it?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,350 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)vdogg
(1,384 posts)This is perfect. Far better than I could have said it.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)n/t
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Good op today!
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Gothmog
(145,321 posts)malletgirl02
(1,523 posts)So ok, Sanders supporters are "Bernie splaining", but please explain to me why Clinton is better for black people than Sanders.