Can Bernie Bash Obama's Record and Still Win Black Votes?

[bravenak]

http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2016/02/can_bernie_bash_obama_s_record_and_still_win_black_votes.html

[Bonobo]

1. Two questions:

!) Is criticizing the same as "bashing"?

2) He already has won Black votes, so does that answer the OP question?

[bravenak]

2. Ok

1. YES
2. Can he win more of them than Hillary?

[Bonobo]

4. Fine.

1. No. Unless everyone bases Obama that is critical of some of his policies.

2. No, maybe not in the Primaries. A pity.

[uponit7771]

5. 1. Yes, when the criticism is full of petulant half truths like West and 2. He hasn't won more than

... Clinton has even in mostly homogeneous states

[MrWendel]

7. Well...

1. Yes

2. There is a differnce between some and most.

[uponit7771]

3. Seeing what happened to Allison Grimes... nope, not at all... she ran away from Obama too and

... well, didn't work out for her

[bravenak]

22. Its funny how they refuse to see that

[uponit7771]

81. +1, Technically in the DNC demographics blacks and Hispanics hit critical mass around 2006 as...

... a voting block.. .get a majority women in that block and 10% of the dem national youth vote and you win the dem nomination for the most part.

IIRC that's the break down.

Black women made up most of the blacks and Hispanics (the "PoC" vote) in states like SC and NC... and then they bring out their husbands and sons (like my mother did) and daughters.

People like Grimes and Sanders DID (I'm almost thinking its too late for Sanders) not understand this breakdown like Obama did in 08...

He knew who he was singing Al Green too...

Bashing Obama is against anyone is the DNC's political health and that has been most of Sanders meme for the last 6 months hanging around Bigga and West... I wonder what will happen to those guys now in SC... he sure befriended them in IA

Its' going to get worse because the whites make up on 60% of the nationals voting age electorate now, in 20 years it'll be less than 50% ... dems and reps will be kicking and screaming at the power they'll have to share with the "others"

This years election and 08s election to me is a microcosm of what is to come nationaly

[bravenak]

89. I see that too and it is making people act out because they see it.

They dont want to need us or have to appeal to us specifically and resent the fact that they do.

But I do think This season is one for the sociologists.

[bettyellen]

44. Gore ran away from Clinton and that hurt him too.

[uponit7771]

82. +1

[mcar]

97. SO and I were just discussing this last night

It did hurt him. Bill Clinton left office with high approval ratings, as will President Obama. Doesn't make sense to disparage that record or popularity.

[bettyellen]

119. I remember reading he was pissed at his infidelities. I kinda thought that was bullshit

because it was only pissed because he got caught. And I think the country should have not made a big deal over it.

[mcar]

122. The country didn't

The media and the RW did. Most of us realized that it is possible to deplore a person's behavior in one arena and still appreciate his contributions overall. Many people, myself included, also thought his infidelity was none of our damn business.

[bettyellen]

123. totally agree with you there. that and Tipper with the lyrics made me think they were

easily distracted by bullshit, or pandering to religious bullshit- which was disappointing.
and disloyal to Bill. the RWers were skewering Bill, and Gore ran away. that dampened my enthusiasm for him.

[mcar]

125. Mine too

Also how he let the media lie about him without challenging them.

[bettyellen]

128. it's kind of a mirror of what is happening here too.

i can't cope with the RW crap here all the time. it's dumbed this place down, for sure.

[mcar]

129. Stuns me that it's allowed

I never thought I'd see it here.

[bettyellen]

132. me too! they will leave when there is no race to spoil though.

[karynnj]

79. and the Clintons ran with her

One message repeated by many in 2014 was that Bill and Hillary were popular and helped campaigns while Obama was a drag in some races.

[azurnoir]

6. Lol newsed meme of the week right a resounding loss for Hillary

good luck with that and her

[MrWendel]

8. Lets see...

how they both do in states where the overwhelming majority is non-white.

[azurnoir]

9. yep lets see how folks do if Hillary is the nominee

[noretreatnosurrender]

10. The answer is yes

I believe that highlighting his disagreements with Obama's record, if it's his honest belief, will win him some African American's votes because some African Americans agree with his statements. I bet even President Obama might agree with him on some criticisms where he himself may have tried to get a better result but had to compromise. In my view there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the President's record unless you are deliberately lying about it. On the flip side I also believe that he will probably lose some votes for criticizing the president. That's politics.

There are some things that President Obama has done that I agree with and some things where I vehemently disagree with him (not prosecuting torturers was one). I don't think anyone should be given a pass from criticism if you honestly disagree with them. I worry more about the people that pretend they agree with everything when they don't. The bottom line for me is that he should say whatever HE BELIEVES and let the voters decide whether they can support him or not.

I forgot to thank you for posting another really good article.

[bravenak]

21. Yes. We decide, thanks for your post.

[Gothmog]

24. There are reasons why African Americans are not supporting Sanders

There are good reasons why the demographics are not working for Sanders and why many voters including some African American voters are not supporting Sanders. Demographics are important in that this explains one of the big divides between Sanders supporters and Clinton supporters. There is a vast difference in how Sanders supporters and Sanders view President Obama and how other Democrats view President Obama. I admit that I am impressed with the amount accomplished by President Obama in face of the stiff GOP opposition to every one of his proposals and I personally believe that President Obama has been a great President. It seems that this view colors who I am supporting in the primary http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-sanders-obama_us_56aa378de4b05e4e3703753a?utm_hp_ref=politics

But lurking behind this argument about the future is a dispute that's really about the past. It’s a debate over what Obama accomplished in office -- in particular, how significant those accomplishments really are. And it's been simmering on the left for most of the last seven years.

On one side of this divide are activists and intellectuals who are ambivalent, disappointed or flat-out frustrated with what Obama has gotten done. They acknowledge what they consider modest achievements -- like helping some of the uninsured and preventing the Great Recession from becoming another Great Depression. But they are convinced that the president could have accomplished much more if only he’d fought harder for his agenda and been less quick to compromise.

They dwell on the opportunities missed, like the lack of a public option in health care reform or the failure to break up the big banks. They want those things now -- and more. In Sanders, they are hearing a candidate who thinks the same way.

On the other side are partisans and thinkers who consider Obama's achievements substantial, even historic. They acknowledge that his victories were partial and his legislation flawed. This group recognizes that there are still millions of people struggling to find good jobs or pay their medical bills, and that the planet is still on a path to catastrophically high temperatures. But they see in the last seven years major advances in the liberal crusade to bolster economic security for the poor and middle class. They think the progress on climate change is real, and likely to beget more in the future.

It seems that many of the Sanders supporters hold a different view of President Obama which is also a leading reason why Sanders is not exciting African American voters. Again, it may be difficult for Sanders to appeal to African American voters when one of the premises of his campaign is that Sanders does not think that President Obama is a progressive or a good POTUS.

Again, I am not ashamed to admit that I like President Obama and think that he has accomplished a great deal which is why I do not mind Hillary Clinton promising to continue President Obama's legacy. There are valid reasons why many non-African American democrats (myself included) and many African American Democratic voters are not supporting Sanders.

I understand why Sanders supporters dislike talking about demographics but the fact remain that Sanders supporters tend to not like President Obama and that dislike affects the amount of support that Sanders is getting from certain demographic groups.

[uponit7771]

83. +1

[Kentonio]

111. Is that about the 10th time you've posted that?

Yes many Sanders supporters have a problem with Obamas record. TPP, hiring bankers and corporate heads to the administration, increased extra-judicial drone assassinations and many more were choices he made, not merely as a result of Republican obstructionism.

There are plenty of good things they did block, and I sympathize with the blatantly racist opposition he faced which we all know a white man would not have. That doesn't change the fact though that he made a number of bad decisions himself and he has to take responsibility for those.

[noretreatnosurrender]

140. Thank you

Thank you for proving my point. You win some voters - you lose some.

I don't expect Sanders to get every vote nor do I expect Clinton to get every vote. As a Sanders supporter I hope Sanders gets lots of votes from the African American community and the Latino community because I'm a strong supporter of those communities. Will he? I don't know. All I know is that he's going to try. If he isn't successful I will expect him to listen to the reasons he's not getting their vote but I don't want him to pander to any voter. Be real. Give it your best and learn what you can do better to earn their vote. As long as he is making his case I will be satisfied. What I won't do is blame any voter for not voting for him. If they don't feel it then they don't feel it. Who am I to tell them they're wrong? If he does lose the African American vote I will look to see if their vote is anti-Bernie or pro-Hillary. Obviously I'd be much happier with the loss if it was pro-Hillary rather than anti-Bernie. lol

[TCJ70]

11. I just read this whole article...

...it's incredibly frustrating. All Sanders is saying is that there's more work to do. Is bringing up the realities of our economy an attack on Obama?

[bravenak]

17. No he said Obama has been weak

And then writes a blurb in that new book that bashes obama

[TCJ70]

23. He did say that...

...in regards to negotiating with Republicans. I mean, he did give away things before even sitting down at the table. That's an odd strategy.

As far as the blurb, do you disagree with it?

Bill Press makes the case why, long after taking the oath of office, the next president of the United States must keep rallying the people who elected him or her on behalf of progressive causes. That is the only way real change will happen. Read this book.

[bravenak]

30. His comments turn me ahgainst him

[uponit7771]

84. +1

[Gothmog]

25. I found these comments from Barney Frank to be appropriate

I found these observations from Barney Frank to be very appropriate http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/02/three-reasons-why-things-will-get-harder-for-bernie-sanders-213591

And his condemnation falls equally on Democrats and Republicans alike. When he leads his audience in the chant that Wall Street regulates Congress, he draws no distinction between Democrats who enacted crucial financial regulations like the Volcker rule, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and the regulation of derivatives and the Republicans who fought all three and are now working to undermine them.

Nor does President Barack Obama escape. While he does not explicitly attack the president, nowhere in Sanders’ campaign rhetoric is there any positive assessment of his record. His listeners do not hear that the Affordable Care Act was a great advance and must be protected as he and others try to go beyond it. They don’t hear that getting the top tax rate back up to where it was before Bush lowered it meant a real increase in tax fairness.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/02/three-reasons-why-things-will-get-harder-for-bernie-sanders-213591#ixzz3zcHVQSYQ

This hits at one of the main reasons why Sanders is not doing well with African American and other democratic voters There is a vast difference in how Sanders supporters and Sanders view President Obama and how other Democrats view President Obama. I admit that I am impressed with the amount accomplished by President Obama in face of the stiff GOP opposition to every one of his proposals and I personally believe that President Obama has been a great President. It seems that this view colors who I am supporting in the primary http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-sanders-obama_us_56aa378de4b05e4e3703753a?utm_hp_ref=politics

But lurking behind this argument about the future is a dispute that's really about the past. It’s a debate over what Obama accomplished in office -- in particular, how significant those accomplishments really are. And it's been simmering on the left for most of the last seven years.

On one side of this divide are activists and intellectuals who are ambivalent, disappointed or flat-out frustrated with what Obama has gotten done. They acknowledge what they consider modest achievements -- like helping some of the uninsured and preventing the Great Recession from becoming another Great Depression. But they are convinced that the president could have accomplished much more if only he’d fought harder for his agenda and been less quick to compromise.

They dwell on the opportunities missed, like the lack of a public option in health care reform or the failure to break up the big banks. They want those things now -- and more. In Sanders, they are hearing a candidate who thinks the same way.

On the other side are partisans and thinkers who consider Obama's achievements substantial, even historic. They acknowledge that his victories were partial and his legislation flawed. This group recognizes that there are still millions of people struggling to find good jobs or pay their medical bills, and that the planet is still on a path to catastrophically high temperatures. But they see in the last seven years major advances in the liberal crusade to bolster economic security for the poor and middle class. They think the progress on climate change is real, and likely to beget more in the future.

It seems that many of the Sanders supporters hold a different view of President Obama which is also a leading reason why Sanders is not exciting African American voters. Again, it may be difficult for Sanders to appeal to African American voters when one of the premises of his campaign is that Sanders does not think that President Obama is a progressive or a good POTUS.

Again, I am not ashamed to admit that I like President Obama and think that he has accomplished a great deal which is why I do not mind Hillary Clinton promising to continue President Obama's legacy. There are valid reasons why many non-African American democrats (myself included) and many African American Democrats are not supporting Sanders.

Franks' article also explains why Sanders is not appealing to African Americans and other groups of democratic voters. I believe that President Obama's achievements are meaningful and should not be dismissed

[TCJ70]

28. So all he would have to do is say...

..."Despite President Obama's best efforts, there's more work to do." And that would fix it?

[bravenak]

47. Put the word out to ixnay on the ashingtray of obama and the negative dealings with our demo

He would help himself by calling it out

[TCJ70]

51. People are going to have their opinions...

...and are prone to expressing them. I voted for Obama twice! Still got a little discouraged by his negotiation style. That's not a bash, it's how I perceived his negotiating style. Being critical of someone while remaining within the actual facts of history is not bashing.

There have been some terrible things said about the president, the worst of which you most likely won't find here. I don't hold candidates responsible for their supporters though. Too many people fall victim to Passionate Candidate Support Syndrome which requires a serious filter when reading things here.

[bravenak]

53. And their opinions are loud and drive voters off.

This is not New Hampshire. This is a play for diverse crowds and we do not care why they sound so anti obama, we are tired of anti obama. 8 years of it from the right and now the left is having a turn count us out!

I wish people knew how much damage this does. To get me on hillary's side might hve been an act of god because i was so mad about 08. Thought it was impossible to forgive because i hold grudges. And I dont forgive, but i see growth in her as a person and she has acknowledged her mistakes and asked for another chance. I always give another chance. And another. And then more.

I hold candidates responsible for the way they manage people. This I do not like it is worse than 08 in some ways and i do not want to go through anymore of that ever.

[snpsmom]

58. Sorry

I feel the same about Clinton's '08 tactics. I also love President Obama except for the drones and the whistle blower stuff. I just can't get behind Clinton this cycle. Sanders has a lot of work to do, but despite his cruddy supporters, he seems more reasonable to me than she does.

[bravenak]

60. Thats fine I felt the same way before it was directed at me

[Gothmog]

49. That is not Sanders position-he wants revolution to start all over

I am not willing to throw away President Obama's legacy on the hope of some sort of revolution that is not going to happen. I like the real world and I like to deal with problems in a way that has a chance of working.

[TCJ70]

52. You seem a little off on the revolution...

...which is fine since his core message was transformed into some kind of social program bonanza. The revolution is a topic that has been in his speeches since day one of his campaign. It essentially boils down to: Get involved, stay involved, let's change this country for the better. It's his plan to get the congress back from the Republicans.

The revolution has nothing, zero, zip, nada to do with destroying anyone's legacy. It never has. Bernie wants to continue building on the progress Obama made.

[redstateblues]

59. I'm still waiting to hear his plan to win back Congress

Who are his Congressional allies?

[TCJ70]

61. You just skipped right over it...

...and I can't help you with that.

[uponit7771]

85. +1, Sanders explicitly said we need a "course correction" when asked would he continue Obama's

...legacy

[jillan]

12. Are you implying that all black people vote the same way? Because it sure sounds like you are.

[bravenak]

18. All? No.

Most? Yep.

[jeff47]

13. "There's more work to do" is bashing?

Are you really arguing we're in a utopia at the moment?

[bravenak]

16. Calling for a primary is. And the BOOK BLURB is pretty much bashing him.

In a book BASHING him. Bernie wrote that blurb in that book.

[jeff47]

19. So do we currently live in a utopia? Or is there more that can be done? (nt)

[bravenak]

20. Does us not living in uptopia matter?

Your utopia may very well be my dystopia

[jeff47]

26. Well, if there's nothing to criticize, then we'd be in a utopia.

There'd be nothing left to change if there's nothing to criticize.

So are we in a utopia, or is there something more to do?

[bravenak]

27. We are in america

[jeff47]

34. Yes, we are. Is there anything left to criticize?

I think there is. There's much we need to do better.

Do you think there's anything left to criticize?

[bravenak]

35. Bernie's campaign style deserves a bit of study

[jeff47]

36. Whether or not that is the case doesn't answer that simple question.

Is there anything left to criticize?

[bravenak]

38. You answer it

[jeff47]

40. I did above.

There's much we need to do better.

Do you think there's anything left to criticize?

[bravenak]

41. Sanders

[jeff47]

42. So America is perfect? (nt)

[bravenak]

43. Did anybody ever say it was on this thread? Where do you get these ideas!

[jeff47]

46. Well, you keep failing to list anything in America that should be criticized

Wouldn't that failure indicate you think everything's perfect?

If there's something our government or country could do better, why can't you list anything to criticize?

[bravenak]

48. White supremacy

[jeff47]

55. And that is different than saying "there is more to be done" because? (nt)

[bravenak]

56. Thats my main issue.

[jeff47]

57. So if it's your criticism, it is OK, but if it's anyone else's criticism, it's awful? (nt)

[GummyBearz]

117. Well, that was one of the biggest wins I've ever seen

Nicely done. I'm amazed at the number of back pedaling deflections I just read, and you managed to keep over coming them. I guess truth is a powerful ally

[jeff47]

118. It's not that hard when you aren't starting with massive hypocrisy. (nt)

[GummyBearz]

120. Well, I still give you props for the time investment

All those deflections would have worn me out... keep on your good fight sir

[uponit7771]

86. The fact that you're acting as if "there's more to be done" was all that was said from Sanders is

... telling

[jeff47]

103. So's your claim that any criticism is "bashing".

Every single person could do more. Even if they have a fancy title.

[uponit7771]

104. No, calling him weak... and other racialized terms as West and Bigga have done is not criticism ...

... that's just petulance at best.

[jeff47]

105. Sanders is not West or Bigga.

If you're going to claim statements by Clinton surrogates do not reflect on Clinton (ie. Women going to hell searching for boys), then you can't claim Sanders surrogates reflect on Sanders.

If you want these statements to be "from" Sanders, then every statement from Clinton surrogates are "from" Clinton. Every. Single. One.

[uponit7771]

106. Sanders strongly associates himself with both and campaigned with them in IA and people wondered

... why after 3 months Sanders lost the PoC vote there by 25%

No, things are about to get real...

Sanders is going to be known by the company he keeps and the words he has said about Obama

[jeff47]

108. Why does Clinton think women who don't vote for her are going to Hell?

She strongly associates herself with Albright, so we can just transfer the statement to Clinton, right?

You really do not want to make this the "standard". You really want to be able to claim surrogates are at arm's length.

[uponit7771]

110. I don't know what this string of conversation has to do with what you just mentioned but

... her repeating someone else's quip doesn't bother me at all.

What bothers me is someone strongly associating themselves with straight up jerks like Bigga and West, bashing Obama (not criticising him) and then folk acting like that's not supposed be seen or heard.

[jeff47]

113. It's exactly the same standard you want to hold Sanders to.

So if that is the standard to hold candidates to, every single shitty statement by Clinton surrogates are Clinton's statements. All of the race-baiting of 2008. Blumenthal starting the birther movement during the 2008 campaign. All of Brock's shit. All of McCaskill's shit. And the comments by Albright and Steinem.

That is why you need to stop and think about what you are pushing. While you might rage against West, there's a whole lot more you are attaching to Clinton with this line of attack.

[uponit7771]

115. Clinton said it herself and it was repeating a quip from a well established feminist IIRC...

... not someone who's just going to be a racialied jerk to Obama cause he didn't get theatre seats he wanted as in West.

Bigga on the other hand is just like Sanders; the guy who's screaming at the cab driver for not running through stop and go traffic fast enough.

Anyway, I don't see any of those guys around him now... in SC

[jeff47]

121. You remember incorrectly.

The "special place in hell" line was said by Albright, as she was introducing Clinton. Clinton laughed and started in on her speech.

Here's the actual quote, from Albright:

It’s not done and you have to help. Hillary Clinton will always be there for you. And just remember, there’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help each other

Bigga on the other hand is just like Sanders

You think Albright and Clinton are not at all alike?

[uponit7771]

124. I remember Clinton saying this almost 8 months ago.

I remember Clinton saying this almost 8 months ago... not just recently... I could be wrong on the time but I know it came out of Clinton's mouth and she wasn't using a surrogate to bash women unlike Sanders using a surrogate to bash Obama.

You think Albright and Clinton are not at all alike?

Hopefully, they've both heaped praises on Obama unlike Bigga and West

[jeff47]

136. Again, you remember wrong.

I supplied you the quote. You think it would have passed with no notice 8 months ago, but suddenly get noticed last week when Albright said it? Yeah, right.

Hopefully, they've both heaped praises on Obama unlike Bigga and West

Has Obama done anything deserving of criticism? How about putting chained-CPI "on the table"?

[uponit7771]

137. No I'm not, it wasn't 8 months ago... I have brain damage... time is slipping...

... it was around 4 months ago at a conference.

Hillary said it herself so it's nothing that hasn't come out of her own mouth.

Has Obama done anything deserving of criticism? How about putting chained-CPI "on the table"?

I hope so, he's human... if not then we have a robot in office.

I'm not talking about criticism I'm talking about overt racialized bashing of someone who doesn't deserve it and that's what Bigga and West did with Obama and it was Sanders who decided to associate himself with them.

[loyalsister]

14. I saw him criticize Obama and

my black friends cheered him on. He was talking about Obama's very tough immigration enforcement that has kids scared they're going to come home and find their parents have been deported.

[bravenak]

15. Maybe your friends are your friends because they think similar to you?

[loyalsister]

29. Or maybe they are my friends because they care about people other than just themselves?

nt

[bravenak]

31. Maybe you dont know what other people care about?

[uponit7771]

87. Wait, didn't Obama do the executive order on immigration for kids? If anything Obama's immigration

... policy has been a mixed bag mostly because of the GOP congress he's had to deal with.

This is my main gripe against Sanders; Sanders acts as if congress doesn't exist and there's no policy decision Obama has made that contoured around them !!!

Its like a passenger screaming at the bus driver for NOT going through stop and go traffic faster.

Obama's whole immigration policy was centered around getting something past congress and he couldn't not because he didn't try but because republicans put up barrier after barrier no matter how much Obama compromised...

Or in the case of the bus took right turns so he can take left turns later on a south bound path

[mcar]

99. This!

[Fawke Em]

32. Since he's not bashing it, yes.

Complimenting the president on what he's accomplished, but pointing out we need to do more is not a bash.

[bravenak]

33. He called him WEAK

[Art_from_Ark]

45. Obama, "weak"?

Perish the thought! He showed just how strong he is when he got those mean, nasty, obstructionist Republicans to support his TPA/TPP, even though most of the Congressional Democrats were against it!

[bravenak]

68. Yes cause Bernie is so strong he got republicans to love socialism

[Art_from_Ark]

69. LOL

But hey, if Bernie can get Republicans to support his social welfare programs (like expanding Social Security and Medicare, making college more affordable, repairing infrastructure, taking better care of veterans, working to get a living wage for people, you know, those Commie-hippie pie-in-the-sky unicorn rainbow farts), then so much the better.

Go Bernie!

[bravenak]

70. If he did that we'd all vote for him

[uponit7771]

80. proffering Obama be primaried isn't "bashing", calling Obama weak isn't "bashing"?! really?! We'll..

...see

[bunnies]

37. Link to the bash please.

Tia.

[bravenak]

39. No

[bunnies]

50. Why?

[bravenak]

54. Because it is in the linked article

[redstateblues]

62. The bashing of our Democratic President on this site is disgraceful

Considering the mess handed to him by 8 years of Bush, he has done a great job. People on this site either have amnesia or weren't paying attention to the state of this country then.

[bravenak]

63. Exactly

[uponit7771]

78. +1, or they just don't like Obama in the first place... republicans don't like Obama

[bunnies]

64. You linked to a link.

On DU you get 4 paragraphs. I don't follow links to links. I'm asking you for your point. Least you could go is give it.

[bravenak]

65. Follow the link or dont

[Number23]

66. Will YOU STOP POSTING ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE??!! You're upsetting the delicate flowers among us!!!

What is with all of these "black people" posts?? Are you BLACK or something??!!

[bravenak]

67. I am so sorry!!

I'll just take my black self off until my vote is due...

[rbrnmw]

72. .....

[NurseJackie]

74. Phfphfphfphfpff-f-f! :-P

[uponit7771]

76. +1

[mhatrw]

71. Can Hillary Bash Wall Street and Still Collect Their Millions In Campaign Contributions?

[betsuni]

73. Can We Discuss Bernie Without Bashing Hillary For One Damn Second Or Is This Still Too Much To Ask?

[uponit7771]

77. yes, like many progressives ... even Bernie.... in the past have done

[karynnj]

75. can Hillary?

She had very tough words about Obama not agreeing to give more military equipment and support to the Syrian rebels - even saying that mistake was part of why ISIS gained strength. She made that statement in a Goldberg article in Atlantic.

That is extremely strong criticism of Obama on what is the biggest foreign policy problem fling the country. None of Bernie's criticisms are any tougher to hear than this. However, HRC said this because she had to differentiate what her foreign policy would be vs the foreign policy of Obama's first term.

[bravenak]

88. This is about Bernie.

[karynnj]

90. double standards, then?

My point is that anyone in a political position HAS to speak when they disagree. You apparently have no problem when Clinton did even as she rejected his foreign policy decision on a very major issue.

My position was it was her right and even responsibility to speak about her own positions. I posted a lot when she gave interviews on that and included it in her book. For me, the problem was not that she -even having the privilege of having been SoS - publicly disagreed, but that I think she is too hawkish and that giving powerful weapons to Syrian rebels would have been a disaster.

Back to Bernie, if you disagree with what he said should be done, why is that not the issue as opposed to it being against Obama.

For the record, I think Obama is the best President that we have had since FDR. I only wish he could have a third term .

[bravenak]

91. I like to stay on topic

[karynnj]

92. your definition of on target is narrower than mine

And it does appear that you do forgive HRC for her statements - including one that came close to blaming Obama for ISIS while holding Sanders accountable for everything he said in the last 7 years.

[bravenak]

93. Topic

[karynnj]

94. oh I get it! This is an exclusive bash Bernie thread

No need to try to explain that anyone - yes even the wondrous HRC - will have some areas -even important ones - where she made unflattering comments on Obama's efforts.

So, as I have no intention to take Bernie to task for any off hand comments - likely to have far less impact on the historical evaluation of Obama than the Clinton ones - I am out of your very focused thread.

[bravenak]

95. I Am tired of discussing Hillary in Bernie threads

[redstateblues]

101. Any mention of Bernie's weaknesses will not be tolerated

[mcar]

96. Good article

I really don't get this strategy.

[bravenak]

98. I do not get it either.

[Gothmog]

100. Great article in OP

[firebrand80]

102. The root of Bernie's problem remains

that he hasn't had to be connected to black voters for his entire political career. It's not a knock on him, he just doesn't have black constituents.

Why is this important? It seems as though is finger isn't very close to the pulse of the average black voter. Of course he is free to criticize Obama, but there's a way you certain way you have to do, or you're going to risk having a lot of black voter tune you out. Saying "Obama did a lot of good, but..." isn't going to cut it.

If I were advising his campaign, I would have him approach the issue this way:
-Start by paying respect to the historic nature of his getting elected, and the things he accomplished
-Talk about the unrelenting, racist Republican obstructionism he faced (goes a lot further than implying that he's a tool of the oligarchs)
-Talk about how your plans are a continuation of the Obama legacy, that you want the same things he wants for the country
-Instead of your overall message being "Not good enough, Obama," your message should be "I hope to stand on the shoulders of the President that preceded me."

But whatever, I'm just going to hang out over here and sip this tea

[uponit7771]

107. I still thought he could have started a dialogue months ago as people on this board were

... screaming for him to do.

Now promising a dollars to PoC causes sounds cynical at best

[firebrand80]

109. He certainly should have, but

His campaign was still had the "once they get to know him" mindset

[uponit7771]

112. Yeap, he SHOULD'VE known something was wrong in IA after PoC went for HRC by 25% and that's

... after he spent 3 months there.

The Bigga and West thing is something really bothers me about his campaign and him; pick a couple of Obama haters and to gain credibility of his bashing about Obama

Where is Bigga and West now !?!?

[firebrand80]

114. I don't blame Bernie too much

But the fact is he's never had black voters as a constituency. I don't blame him for not being able to reach black voters, but he should have foreseen the problem.

[uponit7771]

116. +1

[ladjf]

126. He's better go easy on the Obama bashing. nt

[guillaumeb]

127. Yes. Criticize the record, not the person.

[Vinca]

130. Does Bernie have to agree with Obama on 100% of his actions to get the black vote?

If he does, I'd say he was expected to pander.

[GummyBearz]

131. Can Hillary directly bash Obama's race in 2008 and still win black votes in 2016?

It seems so.

The "hard working white americans" (her words, 2008 campaign), know who to vote for. I guess you would prefer to ignore recent history and piggy back on racism??

[bravenak]

133. This thread is about Bernie

[GummyBearz]

134. If you don't care to talk about it here I will start a new thread

Thank you for the non response

[bravenak]

135. Good

[boston bean]

138. Prolly not. But he is going for a different demographic.

[wildeyed]

139. I wonder why,

if Sanders is so concerned about the disproportionate unemployment statistics in the black community, he hasn't done more to highlight the systemic inequalities that caused it in the first place?

"Youth unemployment for white kids is 33 percent; Latino kids, 36 percent. For African American kids, 51 percent,"

It's like he wants to have it both ways. Swipe at Obama by highlighting racial economic inequality, then pivot and say, well my policies don't have to SPECIFICALLY address racial economic inequality because my policies are good for everyone.

Hmmm...