ENOUGH IS ENOUGH with the damn superdelegates!

[restorefreedom]

look, hillary lost huge last night, and i can understand the disappointment of her supporters. but posting thread after thread telling us how many super (unpledged) delegates intend to vote for her at the convention is a self soothing, but meaningless, exercise.

the unpledged delegates will come around to support the winner of the greater number of pledged delegates (representing the people's vote). their careers depend on it. the future of the democratic party, which is already in trouble, depends on it. the general election depends on it. the idea that the supers will subvert the will of the people, at a public convention, with all the antiestablishment energy out there, is ludicrous.

just stop. time to celebrate or console ourselves, depending on who we support, and move on with an honest and fair process.

[merrily]

1. Very undemocratic of the Democratic Party.

After November 2016, getting rid of them should be a priority.

[restorefreedom]

4. with keith ellison, martin omalley, or nina turner at the helm of the dnc

that is, whoever among them is not veep

[Betty Karlson]

26. And the third? All three have a lot to offer. eom

[restorefreedom]

39. good point. there will be plenty of cabinet spots :) nt

[Bluenorthwest]

17. After Nov 2016 is what the othe person said. How is that the middle of a contest, Kitty?

The barrage of self certain attack rhetoric seems silly when you are attacking something no one has said.

[libdem4life]

22. Good lord, what a woven tale.

[Bjornsdotter]

28. Huh?

Very undemocratic of the Democratic Party.

After November 2016, getting rid of them should be a priority.

Never mentions Sanders, does not say in the middle of the contest.

Reading comprehension: Fail

[LondonReign2]

33. LOL. I like making up things too

[jeff47]

34. Uh, no.

Self-preservation is a very strong instinct in politicians.

It's why Superdelegate John Lewis changed his vote from Clinton to Obama in 2008. His district voted overwhelmingly for Obama, and he want to continue to be elected.

Those NH superdelegates who said they would vote for Clinton now have a political problem. Sanders just won by the largest margin in NH primary history. If they help throw the nomination to Clinton when Sanders has more pledged delegates, they lose their next election.

They will not make noises now, in the hope that Clinton wins more pledged delegates. But their votes are not at all locked-in.

[A Simple Game]

49. I don't think you understand what is going on this election cycle with Bernie.

more time building coalitions and garnering allies.

Sounds like you think Bernie should owe and want to collect favors and votes from other politicians and donors instead of taking issues on their merits and what is best for the Country. That's not why Bernie supporters support Bernie, it's because he doesn't do that.

We want our politicians owing all of the American people not just other politicians and big donors.

[Art_from_Ark]

122. ^This^

[A Simple Game]

124. Yes, bills should be voted on and laws should be passed on their merits,

not because you owe somebody a favor.

[warmonger456]

61. When did Sander says he wanted to change the rule in the middle?

You do understand that just because a User has a picture of Bernie Sanders as their avatar, doesn't mean it's actually Bernie Sanders himself posting.

Do you?

Try again without the Straw Man attack.

[sulphurdunn]

63. I've had posts hidden

and been banned from the 'Hillary Group' for comments more factual and less incendiary. The phrase 'sanctimonious ideologue' aptly applies to someone like Ted Cruz. Speaking in generalities is something Sanders does less than any other candidate, and I'm unsure which group he wishes to lead and insults.

[Paulie]

2. She did NOT lose huge

It was a youuuge loss!

We need to work harder and help Bernie pull wins in NV and SC. We do that and those supers will flip so fast it will be Hillary like on an issue.

[restorefreedom]

7. UUUUUUUGE :) nt

[Paulie]

9. There ya go!

Like a blue whale!

[restorefreedom]

11. :)

[Fawke Em]

32. Yuuuge!

[jwirr]

64. Not necessarily asking you but want to know the date of the

NV primary and what the final totes were last night? Been reading all morning and have not seen the answer to either question.

[Paulie]

67. Here ya go

https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&ei=4X67Vr3JOISpjgT9gp3IBA&q=nh+primary+results&oq=nh#eob=m.059f4/D/2/short/m.059f4/

[jwirr]

70. Thank you. We did good.

[leveymg]

3. Just another version of the Inevitability Meme.

If the Democratic machine thwarts the popular will at the Convention, the Party is kaput.

[Dustlawyer]

66. I hope they understand that, because it's true!

A line in the sand will be drawn. If they use the Super Delagates to change the outcome from Bernie to Hillary there will be a yuuuuge exodus from the Democratic Party and Hillary will lose anyway! I would hate to see that happen for many reasons, not the least of which would be handing the White House to the Republicans.

[-none]

84. Picture Trump in the White House, dealing with Putin... Or China.

Do we really want that. I think not.

[itsrobert]

5. I see more Sanders supporters

Posting about super delegates. Many repeat the same things you say.

[KittyWampus]

6. It's how you win the primary. Are you new to politics? did you miss Clinton

getting her ass handed to her via Obama about 8 years ago?

[restorefreedom]

8. no, its how one steals the primary

obama won fair and square 8 yrs ago, and the supers changed to support the winner. the same thing will happen this time.

[jberryhill]

16. Yes, I do recall her claimed lead in superdelegates early on

And I also didn't miss the movement among superdelegates to Obama, when the picture among the voters became clearer.

If the superdelegate count exceeds the margin between candidates, and bucks the majority of pledged delegates, it would not be good for the party.

The superdelegate concept was intended to avoid deadlock, not reverse the result.

[moriah]

31. +1

[whatchamacallit]

40. +2

[john978]

45. Yes, but 'intended to' is hardly ever the same as 'actual practice'

[jberryhill]

98. That's true of any rule

Look, I'm well acquainted with rules that don't play out well.

What I find irritating is that folks who didn't know how this works from the outset, are now engaging in motive-questioning as to why the superdelegates were instituted in the first place.

The world is full of rules and procedures which were well-intended, and end up with undesirable results.

At the end of the day, in 2008 it was assumed for quite some time that Hillary's support among superdelegates would overwhelm the difference in delegates won in the primary caucuses/elections. There was also the matter of Michigan and Florida being excluded from being counted among the delegates won, because those state's parties had bucked the DNC on scheduling their primary.

So the argument came down to whether Clinton had been "cheated" out of delegates she would likely have won in Michigan and Florida, and what drama would ensue if the entire caucus/election process had been for naught.

Ultimately, enough of the superdelegates were persuaded that (a) Obama was viable in the general election and (b) it would do more harm than good for the superdelegates to go against the majority which emerged from the caucuses/elections.

We are WAY too early to see how the rest of the contests are going to shape up. Personally, I strongly prefer Sanders as a candidate, but reaching for the pitchforks and torches at this point is premature.

[CentralMass]

126. The voters of Michigan and Florida were robbed of their votes.

Regarding the super delegates.

I'll take MA as an ecample. Hillary had lead Senator Obama by double digits through out the primary in MA and won the MA by double digits. Yet out of MA's 28 super delegates 13 pledged to Senator Obama, 11 pledged to Hillary and 4 opted not to commit to either.
Several of our more prominent super D', Senators Kennedy and Kerry campaigned for Senator Obama prior to our primary despite the state polls showing Hillary with a commanding lead in state polls.

This was a tightly contested race, the party chose to throw out or divvy up the votes cast Michigan and Florida and the super D votes were instrumental in pushing Senator Obama over the top at the convention. The super d's in any of the state's should not have been pledging their votes for the candidate that dId not win their states primary.

[jberryhill]

128. "Robbed"....

See, there it is.

Who was it that did the robbing?

I was playing a game of Monopoly the other day, and I got robbed by landing on New York Avenue, where someone had put in a hotel.

The problem is, the rules of the game were the rules of the game before we started playing the game.

I wanted to change the rules at that point, but nobody agreed and I got robbed by the guy who had the hotel on New York Avenue.

"the party chose to throw out or divvy up the votes cast Michigan and Florida"

No... those state party organizations decided to conduct primaries that weren't sanctioned by the national party.

[DRI]

51. Have Superdelegates only commit themselves between the last primary and the convention

That would make sense. As it is now they are there to help thwart the will of the people.

[bbgrunt]

71. great suggestion!

[jberryhill]

85. They are never committed in the first place

They were not added to "thwart the will of the people". They were added to avoid the potential for a brokered convention in the event that no one among a field of candidates obtains the necessary threshold.

Given that they are elected D officials, then there were indeed "people" who willed that they be elected for something as a D.

How it plays out is yet to be seen, but ascribing dark motives to everything under the sun is no way to live.

[OriginalGeek]

100. Welcome to DU!

I just saw them a couple months ago - great show!


(admittedly off-topic post but your username is one of my favorite bands so I had to comment even if that's not where you got the name from)

[Art_from_Ark]

123. When they commit themselves before any votes have even been cast

it's pretty obvious they don't care about what the people want.

[TheBlackAdder]

25. Those Tea Party & Grover Norquist "Loyalty Pledges" that have hamstrung politics for decades!

.


If those super delegates venture too far away from popular support--it reinforces a "rigged system."


Those HRC oaths are NO DIFFERENT than those Grover Norquist Tax Pledges that take power away from politicians.



If there is a huge disparity between super delegates and the populous, Political Illegitimacy results.

I'm sure there are DEMs who hold the scorched earth, win at all costs mentality that permeates the GOP.

So the destruction of the democratic process, the alienation of the Democratic base, is just a byproduct.



.

[moriah]

30. Gotta disagree.

It was a farking disaster in 2008 and I pray we learned from our mistakes and states won't try to jump the gun on primaries.

We also had a very cherished candidate have a personal scandal released during the pre-primaries, so no way for him to bow out gracefully and tell his supporters his choice, whoever that would have been, or to decide where to allocate his pledged delegates. Since he was trying to play the "Deny deny deny" game, even though he hadn't admitted it or it been proven, he knew it would eventually be proven true. He endorsed Obama only very late.

It wasn't really superdelegates that won the primary, nor should it ever be. Remember, while Hillary did question, legitimately, how delegates from Florida and Michigan should be delegated -- of course she wanted them counted, because she did well, but still wouldn't have gotten more pledged delegates than Obama even if they hadn't been penalized by half, if you were fair and gave the total sum of uncommitted to Obama in MI and Hillary the advantage of Edwards not being on either ballot for Florida.

[moriah]

36. And if I missed sarcasm... well, you never know somedays. ;) nt

[Pastiche423]

118. We also had a very cherished candidate...

Very cherished? Is this sarcasm or fantasy?

[moriah]

119. A lot of people really liked John Edwards here in 2007-2008.

Him dropping out without an endorsement affected the race before rumors were officially admitted by anyone.

[Pastiche423]

120. I was referring to "cherished"

Johnny Boy was not cherished. I am thrilled that the real Johnny Boy finally was displayed for all to see.

[DUbeornot2be]

75. Way to...

...ignore the fact that, much like the entire establishment, they threw their support behind her when there was no serious optuon in the race... So yeah, of course she had lined up the super delegates... Just like she lined up the 1/4 million dollar speeches... Remember... She was inevitable.

No way the supers ignore the political reality if they want to remain relevant.

Hillary is almost done as a politician. No reason to worry about enemy lists anymore...

[moriah]

10. I already told at least one to shut up about it.

There's a reason they're called "unpledged delegates" officially.

[restorefreedom]

13. i wish m$m would stop including it in totals

some are fixing it, but they shouldn't have to. they know better.

[libdem4life]

24. Well, they had to start covering him, then trash the "Bernie is not electable", so voila !!

[restorefreedom]

37. coming full circle. nt

[Avalux]

14. Yes, if Bernie keeps winning, the superdelegates will not stay with Hillary.

I know it's the only thread of hope her supporters have right now, but counting chickens before they're hatched is folly.

[leftupnorth]

15. Expecting the party oligarchy to rescue the third way infiltrators

Tells you pretty much all you need to know about those that cling to that hope.

[disillusioned73]

18. ..

We got some nervous folk around these parts..

[restorefreedom]

19. apparently so.

i was just banned from hillary group for taking issue with such an undemocratic process.

number 498....i am hanging with 497 of the best!

[Old Codger]

20. LOL

Took ya long time, I was banned after one miner little slip(by their standards) didn't even realize I was there...

[restorefreedom]

21. i am a bit surprised actually

i put something up the other day, that, while fair imo, was critical of clinton. i guess no one noticed.

seems that some are very touchy about those supers..

[Old Codger]

27. They are touchy

A bout a hell of a lot of things what got me banned was pretty light weight questioning the truth of a lie someone had posted, I actually put a link to the truth and that got me banned.. not a lot to miss really, don't have anything good to say about hill except that I am happy she is losing..

Took a quick peek a while ago and the excuses are flying left and right, the main theme seems to be that they expected to lose so no big deal...

[restorefreedom]

41. yup. and they are clinging to these supers

which will only prove to disappoint

[Fawke Em]

35. Same here.

But, I don't give a shit.

[Old Codger]

58. Yep

Not a lot to care about over in camp weather vane

[SammyWinstonJack]

68. Happened to me, didn't realize I was there either.

[Anti-Establishment]

23. Well Hillary Won last night in New Hampshire (Delegate Count)

We PEONS have no say in who will represent us.

http://www.politico.com/2016-election/results/map/president/new-hampshire


Makes me so mad I could just scream

[longship]

29. Well, spin, spin spin.

Here's some real spin!

But, basically the same thing.

[TBF]

38. Must've been the talking point memo for today

[restorefreedom]

42. yup. emails must have gone out. nt

[TIME TO PANIC]

43. They're just trying to minimize his victory.

They can't let go of that "unelectable" meme.

[restorefreedom]

46. yup...its all that is left. nt

[AlbertCat]

65. They're just trying to minimize his victory.

Hell yes! My fave was some comment over at the H Cave that was something like:

"Either way, it's a win for Democrats!"

Well, Duh.... it's the Dem primary!

Do they think it's the General already???


and

[TIME TO PANIC]

73. Wow!

[jalan48]

44. The coming Democratic Convention may be 1968 all over again if this keeps up.

[restorefreedom]

47. i hope it isn't that dramatic or ugly

i think they will go right up to the line and eventually back off. they won't have much choice.

[jalan48]

86. Maybe as dramatic but not as violent.

If Bernie appears to win the popular vote but loses on Super Delegates I think the shit will hit the fan. We've moved past the let's all agree to disagree stage at that point.

[restorefreedom]

103. yup. nt

[speaktruthtopower]

48. Not a new phenomenon...

but you could argue that prematurely committed superdelegates are placing their own political interests ahead of the party.

[DRI]

55. Superdelegates was the result of McGovern

The last time a major grassroots candidate (My apologies to our President but I always viewed him as the person that should be our nominee after his perch in 2004) rose up to challenge and defeat the Democratic Party establishment was in 1972. After that the party put in Superdelegate process to prevent a McGovern from happening again.

[jwirr]

69. They also helped him lose - the DNC and other establishment

elements refused to work with him. That had better not happen this time. Because this is the primary and we still have a choice in the general. If the party wants to survive they will learn to play nice.

[OnlinePoker]

50. Here's my issue with Super/unpledged delegates

Last night, 24 delegates were up for grabs via the ballot. Around 250,000 voted on the Democratic side so each delegate was worth about 10,400 voters. NH has 8 Supers, which means the party has decided each of those individuals are worth the same as 10,400 people. It's time to get democracy back in the Democratic Party and get rid of the fiasco of Superdelegates.

[procon]

52. Superdelegates aren't a new concept.

It seems as though the OP did not understand the nominating process and has only now learned how important Superdelegates will be at the convention. Now, because the opposition candidate seems to have an edge, it's suddenly a diabolical plot and dire consequences will follow their votes unless they comply with the OPs demands.

Holds breath.
Awaits outcome.
No eye-rolling.

[restorefreedom]

76. supers are not democratic

the delegate winner will be the nom

bookmark it..

[Merryland]

53. Thank you!

And it's SO gratifying to see that my Democratic party is becoming democratic again...

[Stuckinthebush]

54. Sure

Go with that.

Superdelagates don't matter. That 350+ edge Clinton has is a phantom. Those Democratic Party leaders will certainly jump ship to the Dem socialist who has been a Dem for never.

I'm sure that will happen.

[TIME TO PANIC]

59. They will if they want the party to survive. n/t

[Stuckinthebush]

62. Keep telling yourself that

The party will be just fine with party candidates.

But, by all means, go with that belief. Best wishes

[TIME TO PANIC]

72. The Democratic Party will not survive if it continues to turn its back on the 99%.

Those "party candidates" need votes.

[Stuckinthebush]

80. Many of the 99% are with Clinton

In fact, a majority.

But, again, go with it.

[TIME TO PANIC]

82. Not in New Hampshire, and the more people hear about him, the higher his poll numbers go.

"Go with it". You keep repeating yourself. Are you related to Marco Rubio?

[Stuckinthebush]

87. That's right. NH

They are so representative.

His numbers will SOAR in the south. They just haven't met the real Bernie yet. I'm sure.

[TIME TO PANIC]

88. I think you owe people from New Hampshire an apology. n/t

[Stuckinthebush]

89. I'm sorry they aren't representative?

That's silly.

[TIME TO PANIC]

95. Damn, the insults keep coming.

No wonder he won New Hampshire by 22%.

[Stuckinthebush]

97. My gods

I'm sorry majority white, liberal NH. You aren't representative of the national Democratic party as a whole. But, you are good people and you are really neato.

Lord. This silliness is amazing.

[TIME TO PANIC]

99. Sanders won every demographic, except those making over $200,000 a year. n/t

[Tarc]

56. This is how the Democratic Party works.

[scottie55]

57. It's Not The Superdelegates It's The Oligarchs

Where they get most of their campaign cash.

Gonna be a tough call for them.

[ismnotwasm]

60. Okey dokey then...

[MisterP]

74. also, they're bragging about planning to thwart the popular majority vote

that should give some pause

[restorefreedom]

77. just makes bernie's case even stronger nt

[MisterP]

90. "one person, one vote? you adorable so-called democrats"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110744423

[restorefreedom]

104. i can understand. they need something to hold on to.....nt

[Gothmog]

78. The Super Delegates first priority is to the party

If the Super Delegates deem that Sanders will be a danger to down ballot candidates, then you can not expect these delegates to support Sanders

[restorefreedom]

79. then they can expect to lose the ge in a landslide

as well as usher in the end of the dem party.

[StevieM]

81. Before we had super delegates we also had winner take all voting in many states.

The SDs were introduced as part of the plan to make PR voting mandatory.

Without the super delegates, and the rules changes to the pledged delegates that accompanied them, Hillary would have won the nomination eight years ago.

To be fair, though, Obama would have run a different campaign under those circumstances. How it would have turned out we will never know.

In the mean time, Benie has yet to win all those states and delegates that his supporters are anticipating he will win.

[restorefreedom]

83. there is no way to know yet who will win

but it's pretty crappy of hillarys team to keep pushing the supers like it matters. the only point would be to demoralize and discourage people from voting, which is clearly not going to happen.

the supers will support the winner, whoever that is, as they should.

[StevieM]

101. Both candidates have SDs who have pledged their support. Obviously, Hillary has more.

But I don't see how she is pushing them, or even talking about them much at all.

You say they don't matter, but the rules and precedent from history say something else.

I don't agree that if one candidate gets 1002 PDs and the other gets 1001 PDs then the guy with 1002 is guaranteed the nomination. It is totally reasonable for delegates to look at things like who won the most votes, the most states, the most congressional districts, and who won what you might call the electoral college map.

At any rate, both candidates are completely focused on the upcoming primaries and caucuses. They are both focused on the voters.

I don't understand how Sanders supporters are seeing a dirty campaign. By all metrics this is one of the cleanest campaigns I have ever seen. I am very proud of both of our candidates (as well as O'Malley before he dropped out).

[restorefreedom]

105. questionable caucus results in iowa, coin tosses, a hillary supporter/dem chair

that refuses to allow an audit, a rigged debate schedule.

gonna have to disagree with you on the "clean factor."

as to the supers, i doubt it will be one vote apart. it will be enough that one candidate may not have enough to clinch it, but it will be pretty clear who the people want.

that is when the supers have to decide how important the ge, the future of the party, and their own jobs, are to them.

[Stuckinthebush]

91. How are Supers unfair?

They are the party leaders.

They are the top representatives of the party.

They get more of a say in who represents the party.

If they don't want a Democratic Socialist who hasn't been a Democrat during his tenure in office as their nominee then so be it.

The Democratic Socialist party can nominate him.

[Dawson Leery]

92. +1,000,000

Bernie should never have been allowed to run as a Democrat.

[Stuckinthebush]

93. Oh, he can run

But he and his supporters don't need to cry about the rules.

[restorefreedom]

107. the people will have the final say

or the dems can kiss of the ge and the future of their party for generations.

[Stuckinthebush]

109. The Democrats will have the final say

And if the general public agrees then that person will be president.

[restorefreedom]

110. you might want to prepare some of this for the convention

[Stuckinthebush]

111. I'll prepare it for March 1st

As I watch the wailing and gnashing of teeth in GD-P as Sanders loses state after state.

It'll be fun.

[restorefreedom]

112. how high road of you. but i might hold off on that party.....nt

[Stuckinthebush]

114. High road. Ha.

The party is locked and loaded. Count on it.

[restorefreedom]

115. have fun with that. nt

[Stuckinthebush]

117. Will do. nt

[sellitman]

94. 15 Delegates each from NH

That's the final count it seems. The Superdelegates were already committed to Hillary. The popular vote be dammed.

[CentralMass]

127. To do the math on NH's super d's.Hillary won 38%:of the vote yet received 6 of 8 super D votes (75%)

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

96. As I understand, this way of reporting is new

The media is in the tank for Hillary, all distortion. They report it as if they are final rather than they are not final until the convention and can switch from their current pledge.

Hopefully, all this shit backfires and rather than suppressing turnout (Hillary's the only Dem who wants to suppress turnout) and turnout is massive!

[restorefreedom]

106. they are really making his case against a rigged system even stronger. nt

[bkkyosemite]

102. here a helpful link:

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/superdelegates-dont-deny...

[BainsBane]

113. If you want to change how the party selects its nominee

You need to get involved . . .

Oh, I see. Pardon me. You don't want to change the process. You just want to control what American citizens are allowed to say in public.

[restorefreedom]

116. the process will change

under president sanders and a new dnc chair, supers will be buh bye

[cascadiance]

121. Perhaps we should push a petition that wherever super delegate totals are published, include NAMES!

I don't recall in past elections how super delegate totals were already shown as cast as if they were "committed" in the primary summary pages. Since they are doing it, perhaps we could put added pressure on those super delegates that want to commit their votes early to subvert the democratic process of the primaries.

If we can force any paper or site that publishes super delegate totals that they have to have some form of link or accompanying text that show which super delegates have committed their votes and to whom, and who have remained uncommitted, along with their state.

That way, it will be an added pressure to super delegates not to commit to early before they know how their constituents will vote or risk being voted out of office. And you could rationalize it that many who remain uncommitted want to make sure they are identified as being more observant of an electoral process and holding off their votes until the convention so that they use it only for "correcting" things then (ie. if the winner gets a terminal illness or gets in trouble with the law, etc.). By having the votes not identified, then those that remain uncommitted can argue that they will be unfairly lumped in with those who have committed their votes already, and get retribution from voters that they don't deserve.

[restorefreedom]

125. that is a good idea. so far, it seems that they are all ok with publicly

supporting hillary. whether they would care to be id'd as being supers is another matter, though, esp if they still hold office and could come under pressure from constituents. wouldn"t hurt.
.

supers need to be gone by 2020... they are an embarassment. its bad when repubs have a more democratic process for electing their candidates than dems