Tipping Point

[angrychair]

Today is that day. A Democratic Socialist won the New Hampshire primary. He is proposing a lot of programs that will create a lot of change. Those programs will cost money. As a middle class income, I may pay more in taxes for it. I get it. We get it.

So I pass this along to Clinton, her surrogates and her supporters, as you attempt to regain traction and get your footing in what was a historic primary loss, realize the race you were running is already over.
The alienation and ridicule of Sanders and his supporters will do you no favors but push us harder to elect Sanders.

-we are not fringe.

-we are not lost, ignorant or confused

-women that support Sanders are not going to a make believe place called hell nor are they following a guy...they are strong, intelligent and making their own decisions.

-there are millions of us and we have given millions of dollars to Sander's campaign...we can give millions and millions more.

we are sooooo tired of the bullshit.

[Katashi_itto]

1. K&R down with 3rd way

[mikehiggins]

25. If winning elections is ALL that matters, then nothing matters

Third Way sounded good at the start but changed the goals of the Party (not that those goals were all that clear) to the mission of electing Democratic politicians to office. While lip service to FDR's agenda (and he, like all of us, had his flaws) was required it was never spelled out that way and we ended up with a whole bunch of political hacks who stood for election while standing for nothing.

Somebody once said they'd rather vote for a real GOPuke rather than an imitation one. Then came Elizabeth Warren, herself once a real Republican who "evolved" into a real, authentic Democratic spokesperson. It is possible she may have been the "tipping point" in and of herself but the surge of people asking and pleading for her to run were turned aside. It may be that she just doesn't have the ego to make the run.

So enter Sanders, stage left.

The ironic thing is this is possibly Sanders' last chance to help bring about the kind of change he's been trying for. I'm seventy and I know how that feels.

It also feels great to finally have a candidate who DESERVES the support of anyone who considers him or herself a Democrat. Not a Democratic placeholder for all those years? We're lucky we caught up with him.

[Katashi_itto]

51. Agree!

[hifiguy]

74. A thousand times that.

[MuseRider]

2. Nicely said.

I agree.

[Pakid]

3. Right On

Angry Chair

[SammyWinstonJack]

4. +1000000

[Nitram]

5. Doesn't sound like a winning argument.

But that's okay, we wish Bernie the best, and congratulate him on his solid NH win.

[erlewyne]

13. we are sooooo tired of the bullshit.

Obama let me down but by far he was better than
Bill Clinton.

Hillary is Wall Street to the core.

No more Wars!

The government owes Social Security!
Who the hell took our money?

Go Bernie!

[daleanime]

15. Because it's not an argument....

it's a statement.

[Android3.14]

32. Oh look, more bullshit

Someday they will become tired of flinging it.

[Cheap_Trick]

53. A Hillary supporter accusing someone else of flinging bullshit?

That precious. And rich.

[Android3.14]

56. I do believe you may have missed something

You might look at my sig line for about two more seconds.

[Nitram]

58. That's what I was thinking, Android.

Are Bernie supporters a bit too quick to attack perceived Clinton supporters? Hilarious!

[Android3.14]

60. It's been known to happen

Goes with the season, I guess.

[Akamai]

65. Hopefully the person misunderstood your sig line because she/he was fatigued from staying up last

night to send a contribution to Bernie's campaign!!! (Took me quite a while last night to be able to donate -- Bernie's site was swamped.)

Go Bernie!!! (Hope no misunderstanding here.)

[Android3.14]

68. Feelin' the Bern

We understand each other just fine.

[Nitram]

97. That's so cuuuute, Akamai!

So positive and Bernie-supporting.

[frylock]

47. The condescending bullshit is going to make life so much worse when Sanders wins this.

[Nitram]

98. Ummm, Forelock, how exactly is life going to get worse when Sanders wins?

I don't follow.

[frylock]

100. Clearly.

[rhett o rick]

72. I know what you are thinking, Clinton has the Big Money machine on her side, corp-media, Citizens

United and those that want to stay in good with the Establishment. Also, the Party elites themselves favor Clinton.

We know that fighting for honesty in Wash DC is an uphill battle but we see no choice. The existing culture of corruption by Big Money and Corporations is literally killing people in poverty. Poor housing, poor food, poor healthcare, is what the Wealthy 1% have brought us with their greed. We can't understand why people calling themselves Democrats would bow before the wealthy that are killing our economy and our democracy. Idol worship has no place when our children are dying. We have the worst infant mortality rate of all, of all modern countries. Thanks Goldman-Sachs, thanks Establishment, thanks Democrats that have sold their souls to worship at the feet of the American Aristocracy.

[chervilant]

88. We?

Is that the royal we, or do you presume to speak for all the "Not Bernie" voters?

(You do sound a mite condescending...)

[retrowire]

6. knr!

BTW is your username a reference to the Alice in chains song?

[angrychair]

8. Thanks

No, it's actually related to a poem I wrote before AiC became big but it was an interesting coincidence that has sparked many conversations like this

[retrowire]

81. Woaaah. nt

[Myrina]

7. K&R x1000

Thank you.

[mountain grammy]

9. We are not fringe, we are not lost, ignorant or confused..

Says it all! Big K&R for a good post!

[Bangbangdem]

59. Indeed

[robersl]

10. Bernie Vs. Trump?

I like Bernie better than Hillary also, but when I think about him on stage against Trump in a debate I get sick to the stomach.

As of last night, Hillary is the last person standing between The Donald and The White House.

I don't think all you folks feeling the Bern this morning will feel so good in November if you put Trump in the presidency.

[truebluegreen]

16. Yes, Trump certainly has a broad-based appeal

that could sweep him into the White House in November, and therefore we should vote for the Democratic candidate with higher disapproval ratings.

[daleanime]

17. You think Hillary can....

out trump tRump? The way to beat a conman is to not play his game.

[robersl]

31. Out Trump tRump?

Actually, I kind of do. The Clintons have decades of experience fighting Republicans. Unlike Obama, they relish getting into the mud with those guys and duking it out.

What will Bernie do the first time Trump calls him a pussy? A confused old professor? Or goes anti-semetic on him?

[daleanime]

37. The same thing he's doing....

with Hillary, I don't think it a good idea to wallow in mud with a pig like tRump. You wash away the mud so everyone can see what he is.

But don't worry, if you prefer the status quo you can always vote so. Have a great day.

[robersl]

50. Wash Away The Mud?

Uh huh. And how, pray tell, to propose to do that? A magic wand?

The Trump campaign is, literally, made from mud. And he is, dare I say, a genius at flinging it. I have never, in my lifetime, seen a candidate who could, in a few sentences, destroy a rival in such succinct fashion. Just ask Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz, etc.

I don't know, maybe Bernie has got a hidden fighter side to him that will rise to the occasion when Trump paints him as a confused, rumpled, old Jewish socialist who has never done anything in his life other than get re-elected in Vermont.

But then again, maybe he will just quote his 3 million donations at $27.50 a pop ....

[daleanime]

54. Hey, like I said, if you like things the way they are....

you have other voting options. Take them. I'll see what can be done to move this nation forward.

And you would prefer that he talk about getting money from Goldman Sachs?

[brett_jv]

89. Forgive the French, but in a debate, Bernie will lay FUCKING WASTE to the Donald ...

And I for one cannot WAIT to see it.

He will shred that moron so hard it's ridiculous.

At least in the eyes of around 70% of the US population ... roughly the portion that's not brain-damaged or utterly in the thrall of hatred/racism.

[libdem4life]

48. I think he might just look at him and laugh. Then set him straight. I relish this idea.

Talk about a real choice...Rich (4x bankrupt) Vegas Prick vs. Parents from Poland Brooklyn Bernie.

Just because Bernie has been a gentlemen mostly to Hillary, we haven't begun to see what he's capable of with a snooty and demagogue male.

[bvar22]

73. Never wrestle with a PIG.

You both get muddy,......but the Pig likes it.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

87. However, the mud-slinging

from Republicans never seems to go away. Started in the '90's and was instrumental in her loss in 08. Now with her and Bill's Wall Street obscene speaker fees/Clinton Foundation escapades, they have fresh red meat to go after them with. Past & present B-A-G-G-A-G-E.

Bernie can handle the Repukes...hell, he's beaten them in elections before. Not to mention he's breaking fundraising records which counts for a lot. He has our backs and we have his.

[Punkingal]

18. Look at the demographics from last night...Bernie is better for the GE.

[robersl]

34. Demographics

Yes, if New Hampshire were the United States, Bernie would be the stronger candidate for the GE.

[Half-Century Man]

20. Hillary is not the person standing between tRump and the White House.

We are.

The voters are the ones who will stop him or open the door. I will stand in his way. Get active and stop him too if you want. Coordinate the work at places like this and go do the work every where else.

[NEOhiodemocrat]

33. Yes Half-Century Man!

We are!!! Let us all remember that.

[FailureToCommunicate]

46. Yes !!

[Glamrock]

77. Zactly!

I've moved a few (3) Conservapublidependants to Bernie myself. And I'm a pothead! The message speaks for itself. Get out there n spread it like butta, baby!

[Neoma]

21. Bernie has a better chance against Trump.

I see republicans cross party lines more for Bernie, I see a lot of people my age declare they won't vote if Hillary wins. I see Bernie within polls in projected matches against Trump win by a larger margin than Hillary. I also see them using the fact that the FBI admitted they are investigating Hillary as something Republicans might successfully use against her.

[Fuddnik]

24. I was physically nauseated listing to Trump last night.

I'm sure many were.

I wouldn't worry about Bernie.

[zalinda]

35. Trump will burn out or drop out

Right now he is the only one sparking the anger, but that will change. The repubs have no idea what is going on, and are trying to find a message that resonates. They have far too many people in the primary who have billionaires behind them, and when it gets down to only a few, those billionaires will put all their money behind someone other than Trump. Trump will not be able to use his own money for the campaign because he will be outspent. I don't think Trump is as well liked in the upper wealth circles as he likes to believe.

Trump supporters may end up going over to Bernie, if they aren't too ingrained in the repub party. In some ways, it's kind of funny, these supporters are upset with the government but love government programs. I don't think the social liberalism of Bernie will be a turn off any more. It seems that there are only a small vocal percentage is upset with abortion, gay marriage and race, most seem to have accepted the social norm. Of course, that doesn't mean that habit won't rear it's ugly head with prejudicial speech from time to time. But, I think it may be past time where Presidential candidates can run on these wedge issues and win the race.

My best guess is that they will keep Cruz, just in case, even if he has a birther problem hanging over their heads. They'll keep Rubio but give him acting lessons, he's white bread enough not to create a backlash, but the Hispanic angle is just too good to pass up. They'll keep Kasich because of his showing in New Hampshire and because he may be able to cause more excitement than Jeb! They may even let Carly stay in because of the woman factor, but I think the rest may be toast. As more states hold their primaries, I think we'll see a real move to take out Trump.

Z

[Android3.14]

38. Are you kidding? She couldn't even stand up to a senior citizen from Vermont

The lack of that cackle, the high approval ratings, and an inclusive consistent message will overcome Trump's fascist tirades.

[peacebird]

39. Bernie polls better against Trump than Hillary. Bernie took a bigger share of Independent voters

in NH than Hillary. Indies will vote for Bernie, so will hordes of young dissillusioned voters. These same people WILL NOT turn out to vote for Hillary. Many progressives also will not turn out for ahillary, but will enthusiastically turn out to vote for Bernie.

If you want to beat Trump then Bernie is your best bet.

[Dems to Win]

52. Trump will beat Hillary if we let her have the nomination

?uuid=Xge46juxEeWI0-YhMKzJdQ

Who will people vote for? The billionaire, or the billionaire's toadie who attended his wedding, as he ordered?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

11. looking for yoooooge change

landslide

[restorefreedom]

12. the tide is turning. nt

[AzDar]

14. K & R

[MineralMan]

19. Two states do not make a majority of delegates.

There's a long way to go before we even get close to that. Keep supporting your candidate, but stay realistic if things don't go the way you think they should. There are still 48 primaries or caucuses to go. Expect changes in the lead as they happen. Watch the delegate counts.

The majority rules when it comes to all of this. And that's a majority nationwide, not just in two states.

[Half-Century Man]

27. Wins in two states does shift the conversation left.

I think this is very important.
His campaign has shifted the politics from "I/Me" terms to "Us/We" terms. This energizes Democrats.
He has made campaign finance a major topic.
He has made Income inequality a major topic.
The win in New Hampshire proves the strength of these campaign points.

Hillary's concession speech sounded like a strong adoption of these points (or a strong reaffirmation of positions she had in the past but has down played for one reason or another).

I'm liking where the Democratic Party is going.

[MineralMan]

45. Perhaps. Or maybe it just focuses the conversation

a little in a different direction. I doubt if the candidates are really saying anything they didn't say before. They may be saying it a little differently, though.

[JDPriestly]

62. Bernie will win Florida and probably California.

Those are two big states.

Hillary might win Illinois and New York.

That leaves a lot of states to be decided.

[MineralMan]

63. I don't think he'll win Florida. I'm not feeling that.

California might possibly be close. I think Hillary will win it, though, but by a small margin.

California is very late in the primary season. We'll see how things go.

[JDPriestly]

96. Bernie will win the Democratic nomination in Florida and probably in California, quite likely

in Oregon and Washington, Colorado and in a good many other blue states.

[maindawg]

22. I would add

We are not children. We can tell when you are lying.

[TIME TO PANIC]

23. The pitchforks are coming!

[chknltl]

86. We traded the pitchforks in for Laptops and Smart phones.

That said the bourgeoisie better understand that the masses are figuring out that it ain't cake they feed us.

[Duval]

26. Fantastic OP!

"-we are not lost, ignorant or confused"

[Marty McGraw]

28. and your mo. pay will

go up due to that slight tax increase because that small infusion will be well spent and directed right to the areas needed to make positive environment to thrive with economically and socially alike!

[MissDeeds]

29. Well said

K&R

[Paladin]

30. The New Hampshire primary---a "tipping point"? A "historic primary loss"?

What is with you Bernie Believers and your repeated, willful denial of history? It is way too early for this sort of arrogant declaration of ultimate victory. Let's see how things stand in March.

[robersl]

40. Hear Hear!

I convinced myself that Eugene McCarthy was going to win, that George McGovern was going to win, and Jesse Jackson, and Gary Hart, and Teddy Kennedy, and blah, blah, blah, it never works! There are not enough white liberals in this country to put a liberal in the White House!

And yes, working class white men SHOULD cross over, but they won't, because as LBJ so cleverly pointed out half a century ago, you can make a white man vote against his own self interest if you convince him it will hurt a black man to do so.

[angrychair]

43. Spare me.

"Bernie Believers" it's not a cult, it's a political movement.

It was not a declaration of anything other than what is already known.

Nothing I stated is a "belief", it's a fact.

One of the most famous quotes from any campaign was Bill Clinton's "comeback kid" line from where? New Hampshire.
When Hillary won New Hampshire in 2008, it was hailed as the pivot point for her campaign.

His win was a big deal. He got more votes there than any non-incumbent primary candidate in New Hampshire history. He is the first person of Jewish heritage to win a primary for president of the United States. He is the first self-avowed Democratic Socialist to win a primary in for president of the United States. He bested her in almost every demographic.
It matters.

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. Just an aside - Clinton's 22 point LOSS is the largest LOSS MARGIN in NH history. I'm just sayin'.

That cannot be ignored.

WE THE PEOPLE have the power to elect the president we want. As we saw last night 99%>1%!

The 1% cannot and will not win if we come together to stop them. The movement is already bigger than anyone would ever have imagined - in DNC/CLINTON land. It's too big to play catch-up.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[heaven05]

41. people are wanting change of a recognizable type

Whether it's BS that can accomplish it will just have to be seen. HRC has much negative baggage associated with her from a prior administration and her coziness with the oligarchy over the last, say, 15 years. So we'll see there also. Let's just hope that someone, anyone in the political realm making promises, really means them and will truly fight for the disenfranchised and miserably vulnerable of our society.

[tex-wyo-dem]

42. I agree with you 100%!

So fucking tired of the bullshit status quo. It's a fraud and nothing more than a vehicle for the 1% to consolidate the worlds wealth into the hands of a few insiders. With the current reality, we are heading towards some sort of feudalistic future.

Enough is enough!

[wolfie001]

44. "hermetically sealed"

Bullshit quote of the campaign on the Dem side so far. Go Bernie!!!

[99th_Monkey]

49. Not to count chickens, but still, his yuuge WIN is a historic game-changer

Now it cannot be denied that Bernie is in this to win.

It cannot be denied that young people and working people and yes even women voters
are looking for real substantive change, and are not about to settle for incrementalism
and same ol' same ol' business as usual.

It cannot be denied that Bernie is making history every fucking day with his courageous
unprecedented PEOPLE-based donor base, and will not be beholding to Wall St. and
corporate America.

It cannot be denied that the more voters learn about and get to know Sanders, the more
our campaign's enthusiasm is building -- NOT because of wealthy donors, NOT because
the M$M shills for him every day -- but because millions of people are finally standing up
together and are ready to create together a future we can believe in, for our young
people, our children and grandchildren.

This is a great day for America. GO BERNIE!!!

[CentralMass]

55. Well said.

[NoMoreRepugs]

57. voters registered as Independents across the country I am going to assume

are not your typical goobers or gomers. I have to believe that group would vote for Sanders vs T-Rump by a fairly wide margin.

[Nitram]

61. You'd be surprised by how many Americans are really conservative.

And many of them are now Independents thanks to the crash and burn of the GOP brand. It makes me embarrassed to be an American when I see the support for Trump and Cruz. Not that Rubio or Bush are much better.

[Dems to Win]

64. Your OP was just read by Thom Hartmann on his show!

He thought it was brilliant.

You done good!

Green with envy here.

[Sierra1996]

66. Tipping point

Couldn't have said it better.

[robersl]

67. You All Are Playing With Fire

Read this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-slansky-/trump-a-doomsday-scenario_b_9199744.html

[angrychair]

69. No

First and foremost, the anti-Semitic dog whistle and ratfucking is obvious:
"so a Jewish philanthropist, with the self-righteous assistance of sanctimonious liberals,"
While there were some minor issues from 2008 (PUMA) This is not how it works in the Democratic Party.

First, the assumption of this article is that Clinton wins the primary, facts not in evidence.

It then assumes "sanctimonious liberals" will fuck the country to "spite" Clinton. Nice, no doubt is left how this person feels about supporters of Sanders.
It then assumes that these "sanctimonious liberals" are the tipping point that would put a tRump over the top and give him victory. Interesting, not enough Bernie supporters to give him victory but enough pissed off ones to give tRump victory.

It then assumes a very dark and evil general election voter. Right now tRump is feeding the red-meat base of the teapublicans. The general election cycle is not into that dump shit tRump is selling to a knuckle dragging sexist, racist and xenophobic teapublicans in the primaries.

All of these things and more are just ratfucking head games to guilt people to vote for Clinton.
There is no logical or realistic path to an enough electoral votes to win in that situation.

[robersl]

71. Really?

I guess it's your right to do so, but taking things personally (I've seen people talking in this very thread about sitting out the election if Clinton is nominated) is not a clearheaded way to evaluate the situation.

Let's try it this way - the only way Sanders wins the presidency is if he can convince significant numbers of working class whites to return to the Democratic Party (i.e., reverse the "Southern Strategy that Republicans have worked for 4 decades). Are you willing to gamble the White House on his being able to do that?

I admit that Sanders is making gestures in that direction, and I give him credit for having figured that out. But I just can't see him getting it done in one election cycle. It will take a major effort by Democrats in several cycles to pull that one off, and it's an effort they've barely recognized they need to undertake.

Remember, this process is not about who best represents YOU - it's about who has the best shot at holding the White House in the face of a possibly solid Republican Congress.

[Babel_17]

70. "I'll have a slice without so much rat in it"/"I don't want any Spam!"

"we are sooooo tired of the bullshit."

Woman: Well there's rat cake ... rat sorbet... rat pudding... or strawberry tart.
Man: Strawberry tart?!
Woman: Well it's got some rat in it.
Man: How much?
Woman: Three, rather a lot really.
Man: ... well, I'll have a slice without so much rat in it.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Monty_Python's_Flying_Circus

Mrs Bun: Have you got anything without Spam?
Waitress: Well, Spam, egg, sausage, and Spam; that's not got much Spam in it.
Mrs Bun: I don't want any Spam!
Mr Bun: Why can't she have egg, bacon, Spam, and sausage?
Mrs Bun: That's got Spam in it!
Mr Bun: Not as much as Spam, egg, sausage, and Spam,
Mrs. Bun: Look, could I have egg, bacon, Spam and sausage, without the Spam?
Waitress: Bleurgh!
Mrs. Bun: What do you mean "Ugh?" I don't like Spam!
Vikings: [singing] Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam... Lovely Spam! Wonderful Spam!

P.S. Lol; Know what I mean? Know what I mean?

[brett_jv]

90. SAY ... NO ... MO-AH!

A nudge is as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh?

[Chef Eric]

75. Well said! nt

[cantbeserious]

76. Soooooo Tired

eom

[mgmaggiemg]

78. I am so tired of BS BS myself...

what do you think the solution is to all the BS? I am tired of being told by men in the bs campaign that women don't matter...that HRC is evil...etc etc perhaps you can convince your cohorts to be more civil

[angrychair]

80. Really?

You have been told by Sanders supporters, on DU, that women don't matter? That Clinton is evil? I have been on DU for almost 10 years and while I have seen some interesting and bad stuff, I have never seen anyone tell a women, on th I site, that they didn't matter. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just means I haven't seen it. Since it is a TOS violation to call out a specific DU member, there is not an effective way to prove that claim.

I'm here to say that I am here to advocate for all my brothers and sisters. Anyone that would deny women any right or access to healthcare is wrong and should be called out for it.

Thank you for sharing

[GoneFishin]

82. I must have missed those posts also. I would have called them out if they were pretending to

support Bernie while saying things which are so not Bernie.

[senz]

92. Female Bernie supporter here. Never been told I don't matter.

As for HRC, well ... her actions speak louder than her words.

[mgmaggiemg]

93. well you are saying

you are with bernie..so they are not going to call you names... everyone's actions speak louder than their words....personally I like bernie a lot better than I like his young supporters who are passionate to the point of name calling; but the really disturbing thing that I find...is that it's about bernie the messiah and not the issues...and how he would be able to implement his plans....i think if the two sides stopped talking about the candidates and only talked about the issues there would be much more consensus...but you and I both know ...the "king makers" don't want that at all...those king makers are corporations, the extremist media...etc and the GOP...

[Dont call me Shirley]

79. We are sooo tired of the bullshit of the oligarch's and their bought off politicians.

[Paka]

83. K&R

So very tired...

[brewens]

84. Seeing some real hatred now coming from my RW FB friends. Not even worth replying to.

Most of them only see the tax issue. They can't even weigh the chances of actually getting something worthwhile for taxes, against feeding the war machine endlessly, or corporate welfare. Any increase is poison to them.

[Live and Learn]

85. Well said. nt

[senz]

91. K&R -- very well said, angrychair.

[Major Hogwash]

94. 8 years of Dubya Bush is what did it; he broke the camel's back.

So much so, we are no longer willing to accept the status quo candidate from the Democratic party.
We rejected Hillary and chose Obama instead in 2008.
And we're going to do the same thing again this year . . support the more liberal candidate.

There are 10s of millions of us, even 100s of millions of us, that will be directly affected by the outcome of this race.
"Vote or die" used to be sort of a popular meme a decade or so ago.
Now it has morphed in to "vote for Bernie or die".

[bullwinkle428]

95. We've clearly arrived at step #3 of Ghandi's 4-step process:

1. First they ignore you.
2. Then they mock you.
3. Then they fight you.
4. Then you win.

[Nitram]

99. I love the hagiography of St. Bernie.

Talk about a cult of personality!