Heads UP: Hillary Speaks at a Black Church

[firebrand80]

Ok, the SC campaign hasn't really started yet, but both candidates will speak at black churches. Bernie will speak like he always does, and Hillary will change her speech patterns.

I expect to see a lot of side-by-side YouTube comparisons, showing how Bernie is authentic and Hillary is pandering. Not only that, nobody will be able to FATHOM how African Americans aren't offended by Hillary.

A word of advice to Sanders supporters, and this isn't snark, I mean this: Before you do any of what I described above, just try to understand. I can promise you that you won't be helping your candidate by showing how Hillary is more comfortable around Black voters than yours is.

[tazkcmo]

1. Normally

Anything a Third Way/DLC supporter advises is more of a "what no to do" statement but even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again. I agree that it's never smart to tell anybody how the should feel unless you're part of the group you're addressing. White folks telling AA's how the should feel is insulting. Rich folks telling not rich folks how to feel is insulting.

As for side by side comparisons illustrating the difference between the candidates, I disagree. That's exactly what campaigns are about. Differences. And there are many.

[firebrand80]

2. I'm not saying they're aren't differences

I'm saying that their manner of speaking will be compared.

[tazkcmo]

4. And that's what I agree with.

I'm all for side by side comparisons w/o comment.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. Their "manner of speaking". LOL! Hillary will affect a southern accent. Bernie won't.

"I don't feel no ways tarred..."

[firebrand80]

11. You're doing the very thing I'm warning against

Mocking instead of trying to understand.

Go back and watch the "no ways tired" video. Pay attention to whether the audience is sitting there in stunned silence at their being "mocked," or cheering her on.

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. I will always mock group inspired affectations.

Something tells me I won't need to mock Bernie Sanders though.

[firebrand80]

16. A lot of people will

My point is that instead laughing at it, people should ask themselves why the intended audience doesn't feel the same way they do.

[tularetom]

30. You know what - I don't give a rats ass if they feel they way I do

It's pandering and its ultimately disrespectful. And it sends the message that mocking black peoples speech patterns is OK as long as one pretends to be on their side. If Donald Trump affected a fake black accent you'd be furious.

And if African American voters respond positively to being mocked and pandered to, no matter who does it, it tells me that they have been beaten into submission.

[firebrand80]

32. Sounds like you've got it all figured out

except you don't.

As long as it's disrespectful to you, then it is, in fact, disrespectful right? No regard for what the actual intended audience thinks?

"beaten into submission" Really? Aside from the fact that we're (again) implying that Black voters can't think for themselves, is that really the language you want to use??

[tularetom]

34. African American voters have always been pawns to the Clintons

It isn't so much whether she uses a stupid fake accent or not, its the support of tough on crime policies that have resulted in the imprisonment of hundreds of thousands of young black Americans, it's so called welfare "reform" that has perpetuated poverty and hopelessness in African American neighborhoods, it's Bill Clinton snide remarks about Obama, about Jesse Jackson.

Plus it sends the signal that you can mock black voters and get away with it.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe we are all too concerned about political correctness. If all the candidates want to trot out a few black stereotypes, why should we care? Some of it will probably be funny. We should all take a lesson from those black audiences who have learned to laugh at themselves.

[firebrand80]

37. Again, your assumption is that those voters are being "mocked"

Why not figure out whether the voters themselves feel that way, and if not, why not.

[tularetom]

45. Have it your way

They don't feel like they're being mocked and its just a crock of politically correct crap to suggest otherwise.

But look forward to a major case of buyers remorse if she becomes the nominee and pivots back to try and win the support of independent voters, or as she refers to her base, "hard working Americans, white Americans".

[firebrand80]

46. glad we could have this talk nt

[Jackie Wilson Said]

76. African Americans are pawns? What the fuck?

[tularetom]

78. To the Clintons? Sure they are

Patronize them to get elected, then crap on 'em when your in office.

Or this year's variation:

Suck up to them during the primaries then toss them under the bus in the general election when you need to appeal to independent white voters.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

79. African Americans are pawns? What the fuck?

[Fawke Em]

35. I'm not AA, but I am Southern.

And that accent she affects offends the hell out of me. She has that flat vowel, mid-western accent, normally, and it just doesn't translate well into the Southern drawl.

I feel mocked when she does it - like I'm not supposed to notice because I'm just some Dumb Southerner.™

[snooper2]

39. I searched YouTube for - no ways tired , and came back with Rev. James Cleveland

Rev. James Cleveland -I Don't Feel No Ways Tired

You have to add Hillary to find the mocking videos

[HERVEPA]

51. Nobody gives a crap about advice from the turd, errr third, way

[PonyUp]

12. The Many Faces Of Hill. This is her southern belle face.

[2pooped2pop]

14. They were applauding the piece she read

But her "accent" was a fucking joke.

[firebrand80]

15. Did the audience not know they were being mocked?

[2pooped2pop]

18. It sounded to me like the piece was one they recognized and liked

It seemed to quiet down as it went on, so maybe they did start to feel that.

[firebrand80]

20. The gentlemen behind her STOOD UP AND CLAPPED at the end

and unless my ears are deceiving me, they were getting louder as she went on

[2pooped2pop]

23. Could just be my sound.

So I guess they got what they wanted, so all's good.

[firebrand80]

17. So what exactly is wrong with that?

[2pooped2pop]

22. Really? Well if you're OK with it

Then you're OK with it. For me, I would feel that someone was playing games. But as long as her audience don't see it that way, then I guess she slides on it. Makes me go wow, but not my problem so I don't really care.

[Katashi_itto]

3. Thanks for the words of "concern"

[firebrand80]

6. Thanks for the words of dismissal

[Katashi_itto]

25. Snicker...priceless

[peace13]

5. This is the funniest post I have ever read.

It would be better if you sent an email to Hill requesting that she keep it real! Observing and commenting on a behavior is not the problem...the behavior is. Thanks again for the laugh!

[firebrand80]

7. Yeah, you don't get it

[peace13]

8. Preemptive admonishment.

[firebrand80]

9. Put your fingers in your ears

and continue to lose the black vote, and the nomination. Doesn't bother me at all.

[peace13]

19. Once again...

..all candidates should treat black voters and all voters with respect, that way the problem will be nonexistent. Your point is equivalent to preparing the mothers on the block that your kid is going to pick her nose and if anyone brings her attention to it THIS will cause the problem. Pretty simple answer is to get the finger out of the nose. So sorry but someone of Clinton's stature should be able to speak in public without a fake accent. I really can't envision how she managed across the globe as SOS without you there asking folks to look away. For goodness sake,ask the candidate to be respectful. That will raise us all up!

[firebrand80]

21. Still missing the point

Hillary is not treating black people with disrespect.

In your mind she is being disrespectful, she's pandering. I'm pointing out that the audience clearly doesn't feel pandered to. So, instead of mocking something that you feel is silly, ask yourself why the audience has a different reaction than you do.

[peace13]

24. Quite frankly I would have ignored the subject altogether had you not ..

..decided to dictate to others how they should respond to what you perceived others would perceive. You may have a point but you had to stir the honey pot to make it. Have a great day. Open the window and take a breath.

[Iliyah]

26. I don't and many upon many don't either.

They know that HRC has much respect fort them, and they (we) appreciate it.

[virtualobserver]

27. it makes no sense that Bernie would lose the black vote......

based on us marveling at Hillary's accent changes.

That would imply that black people modify their vote for a President based on extraneous details.

Not believable, but nice try at heading us off at the pass as Hillary moves into pure manipulation mode.

[firebrand80]

29. I'm not suggesting he will

This is more of a critique of Bernie's supporters. There is a lot of "not understanding why" black voters are with Hillary in such large margins. I'm trying to point out one area where, instead of laughing at Hillary, Bernie supporters can try to understand things from a different perspective. If you can understand black voters just a little bit better, maybe you'd have a better chance of winning them over.

Unfortunately, if this thread is any indication, nobody is really interested in that line of thinking.

[virtualobserver]

31. It isn't possible for Bernie supporters to "win over" black voters.

Bernie's record is an open book. His priorities are clear.

Bernie just needs exposure. Some people will be won over by what they see, and some won't.

[Duckhunter935]

28. yep, her southern accent

Will appear again

[Arugula Latte]

61. ...like the swallows to Capistrano.

[moriah]

65. Damnit, the Southern accent is contagious. ;)

And accents can be quite malleable unintentionally.

Yes, I was born here, so the AMOUNT of drawl varies depending on who I'm talking to or have been around. My mother tried to make sure I spoke properly and enunciated as a child, but I still have some. Given that I worked in call centers, that led many of my coworkers to ask if I deliberately changed it when speaking to "Yankees" on purpose to get rid of the drawl. Nope, but when I came back from visiting family in NC for a week, my accent was noticeably thicker, because it was thicker there. An ex BF from NW Missouri couldn't believe how just talking to my Dad for an hour changed my voice.

Now, you take a Yankee (or heck, even a European immigrant since my ex hw grew up speaking both German and Romanian, and having pretty decent English already when we met). My roommate was born and raised in PA, has been here 22 years. He goes home to visit the rest of the family, and they all notice his drawl. Comes back, we're all like "What happened to you? Why are you speaking like a Yankee?" He's better in a few days. My ex, after we moved to New York for his medical residency, reconnected with some other FMGs he knew from before he an I met -- and they couldn't understand his English, though they could his Romanian easily enough. He had picked up a Southern accent. It took him a year solid to fix it, he only lived in AR for maybe two years before he got the hookup for that residency spot. He came back here for a week vacation years later, to see some mutual friends, and messaged me, irritated when he returned. It was back!

So I think that when you travel a lot and/or speak to different accents often, if you've lived in the South very long before, it comes back quick when you're talking to a person with a Southern accent. There are several different variations on the typical "Southern accent" -- to a Southerner, a person from Georgia sounds very different than NC or AR, or even Texas. To the poor folks who transplant down here, they can't usually tell the accents apart....but end up with whichever one they're around like a permanent affliction.

Edit to add: the ex hubby jokingly blamed me for it happening in the first place -- I did help with his TOEFL prep. But part of the reason we got together was that he could actually understand me, compared to some other Arkansans -- he dated a bit, but most of the people he saw he couldn't really understand. Great for just casual, but it's hard to get to know someone if you miss every third or fourth word.

[SidDithers]

33. DU rec for all kinds of reasons...nt

Sid

[Goblinmonger]

36. "more comfortable around Black voters"?

So using a bullshit fake accent means you are "more comfortable"? So because Bernie doesn't do his best southern drawal, that means Black voters frighten him.

This OP is fucking hilarious.

[firebrand80]

40. I didn't say anything about Bernie being "frightened" by black voters

And Hillary is not more comfortable among black people because of the way she speaks at a church, she's more comfortable around them because she has been engaged with black voters for her entire political career. That's not a knock on Bernie, that's just reality.

I'm also not saying that Bernie should try to fake an accent. My point is that the inevitable mocking of Hillary accent, with no regard for whether or not the audience they are being mocked, is insulting to black people.

Why insulting? Because it's an assumption that you know how people should feel, without trying to actually understand those people.

[Bluenorthwest]

62. The problem with your lecture is that it is in fact YOU who is attempting to speak for those people

as if they were some monolith lacking in personal franchise. If you are not in that hall and speaking about your own personal reaction then you are assuming to speak for and about others. Which is what you are telling people not to do 'Do as I say, not as I do!'

Also, just by the way, your OP sounds a tad like a jab at Bernie's accent, and that in and of itself makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. And when you do that, you are in fact speaking for yourself.

[firebrand80]

63. Quite the opposite

I'm criticizing those who will claim to speak for how black voters should feel without any attempt to actually understand those voters.

I'm not sure what you took as a possible criticism of Bernie's accent, but that wasn't my intention.

[KingFlorez]

38. I'd expect Clinton to do better

This is not new for her by any stretch of the mind. Back in 2008 she attended a forum hosted by Tavis Smiley, even though she knew she had lost the black vote, so she is quite comfortable speaking to black voters.

Sanders shouldn't even bother with the black vote. He has his base and he should stick to campaigning for their votes.

[TheBlackAdder]

41. Perhaps rewrite the title. Viewing it from GD-P looks like the OP deals with it being a rarity.

.


People who don't open up the OP might be left with a feeling that her being in a Black Church is a first!


.

[basselope]

42. In short... do this.

[firebrand80]

43. or don't

[basselope]

44. I hadn't really thought of it until your post.

But now I plan to do it.

And I know the perfect YouTubers to have some fun with it.

[Joe the Revelator]

47. How is it that 'changing her speaking pattern' ...

...means that she is more comfortable around black voters?

[firebrand80]

53. I didn't say it necessarily "makes her more comfortable"

I'm saying that the end result of Bernie supporters making fun of her for changing her accent will be showing video evidence of her being comfortable in front of black audiences. She's not comfortable because she changes her accent, she's comfortable because she's engaged with those voters for years, and it shows when she gives a speech.

[Joe the Revelator]

48. As a Jew, if Hillary came into my Shul, and all of a sudden started dropping yiddish like it was...

...part of her daily vernacular, i would be offended.

[firebrand80]

54. Try to understand the people that aren't offended

that's all I'm asking

[Joe the Revelator]

57. It's inherently offensive though....

isn't it? Changing your voice and accent to appear more....more what?....more black? urban?...is offensive I would think.

[firebrand80]

58. watch the video posted above

the people in the audience don't seem offended to me

[frylock]

49. Or nah.

[MellowDem]

50. Clinton is made fun of...

When she has done the same thing to pander to white voters in different parts of the country.

I suppose the white voters who like it will be offended if she is made fun of for pandering.

I don't really care for making fun of a politician as much as criticizing them, and I think pandering like that needs to be pointed out, because it's one of the oldest tools in a politician's wheelhouse, and because it works.

I think it's ok to aknowledge that black voters can be just as susceptible to pandering as white voters, and I think it's this idea among some that black voters are somehow more prescient as voters that will lead people to defending Clinton's pandering. By that logic, white voters must really know they will be getting a good deal out of a Trump presidency, and his pandering to evangelicals should not be made fun of, because it might hurt their feelings.

Taking on a different tone forcefully is not a sign of respect, but the opposite IMHO, but it works in many cases, unless it is pointed out.

Identity politics is an old game, and it points to one of Clinton's biggest weaknesses, her authenticity. I don't think being able to lie well to different demographics makes you comfortable with those populations, it just makes you comfortable lying to them. Clinton was very comfortable using dog whistles in 2008, she was a pro. A good liar can adapt to any situation, and she's a good liar.

Sanders is an uncomfortable candidate to many demographics. He's Jewish and not very religious. He's going to have a very hard time, and I don't think he will be able to win, in part because a lot of voting isn't about issues.

So I will criticize her for her pandering, but it's very easy for me to see that pandering works on all demographics, and if most black people don't mind it, I won't be shocked in the least, people like being pandered to.

[firebrand80]

55. Let me see if I can try this a different way

I am an African American that was raised in a working class black neighborhood in Chicago. I currently work in a professional environment. My manner of speaking if I go home for a back yard bbq is very different than how I speak at work. I wouldn't think of using the same language at work as I do at home, and vice versa.

In your opinion, am I "pandering" to people at work? At home? Why?

[MellowDem]

60. Not at all...

People take on different tones in different groups they are a part of to show identity with the group, and because it comes naturally after a while of just being around another accent.

However, if you were to speak at an event promoting a product to a group you aren't part of in any way, and take on the group's tone consciously while doing so, you aren't doing it to fit in so much as to sell your product. Would you feel just as comfortable doing so in that situation?

As soon as you walk away from that event, then you'll never use it again, until you have to sell that product again to that particular group. You aren't doing it to fit in as a member or a group, but rather to pretend you are a member for the purpose of making the sell easier. It's a form of deception IMHO.

You are a member of a professional environment AND a working class neighborhood. Those things are true for a number of reasons not related to your accent. Being willing to use the accent is a way to show you're willing to identify with those groups that you have connections to.

Imagine speaking with an accent not just in your two settings, but speaking with an accent to match every setting you go into, no matter your background or personal history with said group, and imagine your doing it as part of a job to sell something. That is where the problem arises.

Not to say it doesn't work, politicians do that precisely because it helps people feel like the politician is "one of them", and that the politician wants to identify with them and cares about their concerns.

[firebrand80]

66. Good, so back to Hillary

If she's comfortable speaking in the "language" of a black church, then what's the problem with her doing so?

If I go to France, and I know some French, nobody gets offended if I try to use it. Nobody says I'm "pandering" to the French, I'm simply speaking the language of the place I happen to be in. Now, If I didn't know any French, and simply tried to mock what I think French people sound like, that would be offensive.

When Obama gave the eulogy for Clementa Pinckney at his church, his manner of speaking was different. Not only that, he started singing 'Amazing Grace' in the middle of the speech. Would he do that if he was addressing a joint session of Congress? Of course not. Why did he do it then? Because speaking that way and singing in the middle of your eulogy is perfectly acceptable and quite common in that setting. The only people that get offended were people that weren't familiar with that environment.

So, as I said, Hillary will inevitably go to a Black church and change her speech patterns. She may even use some words that she doesn't normally use. Why aren't the people offended? Because they're ok with it. She's doing nothing more than speaking the language of her environment. Just as in my example with France, it's not offensive because she's not mocking them, she's comfortable with the language.

Not only that, the Black Christian tradition comes with a certain degree of histrionics. It is quite common for a black preacher to stand in the pulpit and speak in a way that even they themselves don't speak after they step away from the pulpit. And it's common for people that stand in front of a church and speak, even if they're not a preacher, to use certain language while addressing the congregation.

So when Hillary stands in a church and changes her language, nobody in the church is taken aback, they all do the same thing. When she quotes song lyrics from Rev. James Cleveland (who is revered in black church circles, especially for older folks), that kind of thing happens every Sunday. Again, she's speaking the language of her environment, and she's doing a decent job of it.

This is my personal opinion, but when I hear people criticizing her for speaking that language in that setting, I can't help but wonder just what in the hell is so funny. That environment is a large part of my cultural heritage, and people speak like that all the time, and it sounds to me that it's being looked down upon.

I'm simply asking Bernie supporters to try to understand the culture before you rush to condemn Hillary. But, this is the internet, so I don't really expect that to happen.

[MellowDem]

74. The French analogy doesn't seem...

appropriate. Accents are not language. It's appropriate to try to speak someone's language in their home, because doing otherwise shows you assume they know your language and you expect them to conform to it.

Barack Obama has been a member of black churches, so he comes across as sincere when speaking that language in that setting.

Clinton has been made fun of for going with a southern accent in the South before, and not just in churches.

It's not that we think Clinton is making fun of people by adopting their accents when speaking to them, we think it's not sincere, that it's a form of deception.

That is what people find funny, how artificial she comes across, how robotic, how "I'll tell you what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it" her political strategy is. Especially when her words don't match her actions she has taken. That is one of the biggest criticisms voters have of Clinton, and polls show it, that she lies, that she's not sincere, that her actions don't match her words, so those that criticize her will highlight what they see as deception.

The fact that she is good at it, so good that few in the audience take offense, is the whole point. It works, otherwise she wouldn't do it. And it's not just her. It's an age old game politicians play.

Now, if you think Clinton is sincere, then it will change your whole perception of her using accents in places like these, but those criticizing her don't think she's sincere, for a lot of reasons, not out of hate for Clinton.

But when a politician speaks in one manner to one group of voters with one message, then turns around and speaks to another group of voters in a completely different manner and different, even conflicting message, it does not come across as sincere IMHO. It comes across as opportunistic.

Which is just to say, those videos are making fun of Clinton's perceived artificiality, not the accent she is taking on. If someone thinks she is sincere, then they'll disagree. Consistency is seen as being far more honest, not changing messages to fit whatever demographic you're talking to. Some people like that, even expect that, but I think that's not good for democracy, and I've seen many a politician hit the message just right to each demographic to then proceed to fuck them over, and Clinton has a long track record of that IMHO.

[Avalux]

52. Hillary is more "comfortable" among black voters? What does that even mean?

Bernie's message is universal because he speaks the truth. It doesn't matter what voting block you select.

[firebrand80]

56. Watch Ted Cruz speaking in front of an audience of White Evangelicals

compared to any other Republican candidate. They might all be saying they're anti-abortion, but nobody can connect with those voters better than Ted.

[Fumesucker]

64. That's because they are brain damaged all in the same way

It's also why of the whole lot Cruz scares me the most, he's serious and most of the others aren't really.

[firebrand80]

67. It's because he speaks their language nt

[Fumesucker]

72. I speak their language pretty well, grew up in that culture to a big extent

But I don't *believe* and it shows...

[jillan]

59. What are you trying to even say? Are you worried that Hillary will not be comfortable speaking at a

Black Church?

I honestly don't know what the point of your OP is about - and it's not snark.

[firebrand80]

68. I summed it up in post #66 nt

[ram2008]

69. I don' feel no wayss tiaaarhd.

Please don't Hillary.

[m-lekktor]

70. lol nt

[firebrand80]

71. What exactly is wrong with her saying that?

[ram2008]

73. It comes across as pandering and fake.

That is not how she speaks. Everyone knows that. Then when she tries a fake accent to pretend she's part of the crowd (which is kind of insulting) and botches it it comes across as cringe-worthy.

[firebrand80]

75. What makes you think she "botched" it?

I'm very familiar with that manner of speaking, and she sounded fine to me

[ram2008]

77. As am I, it sounded botched nt