Question for Bernie supporters

[anamnua]

Was the Civil War over when the North was routed at Bull Run?

[JackInGreen]

1. are you equating the primaries

to the civil war?

[anamnua]

33. At times

it appears like civil war without the bullets -- just like '08.

[merrily]

2. Thank you for your concern and for the straw man.

I don't recall any Bernie supporter posting the primary was over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[mythology]

15. Look harder

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511189896

[merrily]

16. Ah, so one post = "Bernie supporters?" ok. nt

[4dsc]

3. We have only just begun to fight

Get use to it.

[Hortensis]

6. Good answer, but in the end

we must and will fight together. We're the good guys, and the today's GOP is controlled and directed by an ultraconservative uber-class determined to take over America.

Just look at the -- surviving -- candidates they still plan to elect our president from. I saw surviving because some of their initial hopes, like Scott Walker, who meets all 14 points on a commonly used scale to measure fascism, did not do well. Their latest promising hope, Marco Rubio, no doubt has horrified his billionaire backers by revealing a severe weakness to the nation at that debate.

But, notably, stealth candidate John Kaisich, by adopting a moderate stance is slowing gaining voter interest, when his record suggests he is actually a far more competent version of Scott Walker. This "moderate" with the nice face has actually been working with hard-right/"libertarian" ALEC (the American Legislative Exchange Council) to corrupt and subvert democracy for 40 years!

Then there are the others...

[merrily]

19. Interesting that some Hillary supporters switched to Kasich last night. Says a lot.

[Hortensis]

25. What does it say, Merrily? That we're fascists?

What does the fact that "some" Sanders supporters switched to "The Donald" say? That Bernie supporters are also fascists with a strong attraction to people with flagrant personality disorders?

Or does it actually just indicate that some people are so terminally dumb and irresponsible that they literally have no idea what the people in the pictures would do with the power they gave them?

[merrily]

28. I didn't hear about Sanders' supporters switching to Trump. I heard about Hillary's supporters

switching to Kasich.

I didn't say the switch said a thing about Hillary's supporters who did not switch. That was your imagination. However, it may say something about your candidate's policies.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Bernie Sanders vs. John Kasich on Corporate Welfare 03-30-1995

A 'stealth candidate' confronted by Bernie 21 years ago is not all that stealthy.

[demosocialist]

55. Give that Co chair of the Progressive Caucus Power!

20 yrs ago Bernie was fighting the fight that is now obviously the BIG problem!

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

4. Was it over...?

[Kurska]

7. +1

[merrily]

20. zomg. You're a genius!

[anamnua]

38. Yes I'm familiar with that clip and

was actually thinking of working it in. Joking aside, there is even a relevant analogy here: the disaster at Pearl Harbour -- humorously misattributed as it may have been in this flick -- was not the end.

[el_bryanto]

5. Thanks for the reminder

We do have to stay on the offensive; making sure that liberals and progressives can see the differences between the two candidates clearly, despite the efforts of Clinton Supporters to muddy the waters.

Bryant

[cali]

8. Oh for fuck's sake. People are so myopic

Look, Clinton is the prohibitive favorite, and I can't see how she won't be the nominee. But Bernie's success in Iowa and New Hampshire tells us a lot about the zeitgueist, Hillary and November- and it's not good news about prevailing in November.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

9. This will drag on right up until the convention, and we know it.

But Bernie started out with major hurdles to clear even to get a chance to run. Thee first two states simply helped him get up to the point where he's competitive. At either of these two states, he could have been forced out of the race entirely by a bad showing. Instead, he did what he needed to make it a marathon, and not simply a quick sprint for Hillary.

[HubertHeaver]

10. Did the failure of the Easter Rebellion end all hopes for freedom?

[KingCharlemagne]

31. Question for Hillary supporters: Did the launch of Operation Barbarossa

mark the triumph of the 1,000-Year Reich?

[bettyellen]

34. Wow, this is the third reference I have seen to Nazi policies in the last 24 hours here.

INTERESTING.

[KingCharlemagne]

36. The OP maliciously attempted to tie Sanders' victory in NH to that

of the traitorous South at Bull Run. What, Hillary supporters can dish it out but they can't take it?

WTF?

[bettyellen]

40. So Nazi Germany = one battle of the Civil War? Okay then!

[KingCharlemagne]

53. Oy vey. Sigh. So the New Hampshire primary equals the

First Battle of Bull Run? Okay then!

[HubertHeaver]

50. The op is located in Ireland and has no understanding of what

he said. Book-learning only--he used the Northern name for the battle.

[anamnua]

39. I invoke Godwin's law nt

[marble falls]

11. So you think the Democratic campaign to the convention is a civil war. Interesting.

[NurseJackie]

47. So you think the OP thinks that the campaign is a civil war. Yes... very interesting indeed.

I think it's a reminder to not give up. That's a more realistic interpretation, and it avoids all the risks associated with trying to be a mind-reader and finding "hidden meanings" and looking for innuendo where none exist.




Note to Jury: As you can see, my opinion and analysis differs from the person to whom I was responding. This is not against the rules. People have differing opinions all the time, and you'll note that no candidate or candidate's fans were smeared or attacked. Don't ban me, Bro!

[marble falls]

48. Right. So what was that comparrison supposed to mean? No hidden meanings, like this:

"3. Bernie's views on things like this ...

... are certainly something. I prefer Hillary's views, philosophy and policies. She's always impressed me as having a more REALISTIC outlook with a TRUE and BETTER and DEEPER understanding."?

He might have mentioned Truman's surprise victory over Dewey. Or some other election related example.

[NurseJackie]

49. Make of it what you will. I cannot control your imagination. (Have a nice day.)

[daleanime]

12. Actually most of Bernie's supporters think that the hard work....

starts after the election. If you're willing to roll up your sleeves and join in, we would appreciate it.

[tazkcmo]

13. No. We're still fighting it. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

14. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

get the quote right.

[Vinca]

17. We endured days of gloating after an essential tie in Iowa.

Give us a day to celebrate a YUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE victory in New Hampshire.

[KingCharlemagne]

32. AKA: A good old-fashioned ass-kicking! - nt

[anamnua]

42. Honestly, I did not see a whole lot of gloating.NT.

[HereSince1628]

18. Are you suggesting that Hillary be fired? The north went through a lot of generals.

Before they settled on Grant.

[merrily]

21. Actually, Axelrod kind of suggested that in a tweet.

When the exact same problems crop up in separate campaigns, with different staff, at what point do the principals say, "Hey, maybe it's US?"

https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod

Also, some of the talking heads on MSNBC opined, "It's not the message, it's the candidate."

[HereSince1628]

22. Maybe Bloomberg is playing the role of McClellan?

[anamnua]

44. Actually, in her perseverance, resilience, ability to pick herself up after hard knocks,

and general stickability, she is reminiscent of US Grant.

[HereSince1628]

56. At best Burnside, imo

[gollygee]

23. You obviously can't tell who is going to win at this point

However you can say without a doubt that Bernie isn't out of it. He did much better than expected here and he still has a good shot.

[pinebox]

26. Let me tell you something and READ CLOSELY!

This is what you and other fail to realize and understand.

Bernie Sanders. for 40 fucking years he has FOUGHT and stood strong on every single issue and has hardly ever wavered and I am sick of the crap of the crap Hillary supporters throw around acting like she "deserves" and is "entitled" to the Presidency of the United States. She deserves NOTHING and NOBODY does when it comes to the highest office of the land and in the world.

Every single damn politician serves us and us alone. Period. However there are those who aren't doing that. Instead they serve the almighty buck and have aligned themselves with special interests and Wall Street and it is so obvious and so clear yet so many give her a damn pass because "OMG she is HILLARY!". Sorry but no. HELL NO at that!

I have a mountain of shit I can post on why she should never see the highest office in the world. Literally. One click on YouTube shows that. You show me anywhere you can dig dirt up on Bernie that's significant. Do it. I dare any Hillary supporter to do it actually. What are you going to do, scream "GUNS!" when in fact Hillary painted her self as a church going rifle totin' gal against Obama? Please do!

For everything she says she stands for, she has been against. Continuously. Name one thing she hasn't been because I can; taking money from Wall Street. She's never wavered from that has she? Allow me to show you 2007 & a little something EVERYONE on DU has forgotten about & believe me, there is a LOT more out there. Google works wonders.

From Wapo http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/06/AR2007090602748.html



Yet she gets a pass. Why? Go ahead and explain to us all WHY she gets a pass. If this was a Republican, people would be up in arms about it.

Integrity. It STARTS with Bernie.

You want more? Fine.
Here you go.

Let's look at this clip from Democracy Now! and Hillary's racially charged comments from 2008.
It's pathetic. One fucking click is it takes and you can find more baggage than you would in the travel section at Sears.

[Punkingal]

41. Absolutely killer post!

You rock!

[pinebox]

52. Thank you I'm just sick and tired of the horse shit

and how people are absolutely REFUSING to hold her to any accountability at all

[Punkingal]

57. I am, too, but I could never express it as well as you.

[pinebox]

58. well thanks

[thereismore]

27. No. Any other questions? nt

[Maedhros]

29. One could make the case that the Civil War was over before it started.

The South really had no chance against the industrial might of the North. Lee's only real hope for victory was to win a climactic battle on Northern soil in order to entice European powers into recognizing the Confederacy. Whether that was even possible is an open question.

To address your real question: no, the Primary is not over. Bernie hasn't secured the nomination yet, and I think his campaign is keenly aware of that fact. I, for one, am excited to carry on the fight. Now that Bernie's ability to win has been amply demonstrated in Iowa and New Hampshire, his message will gain more traction. And now that Hillary has demonstrated that she can lose big, her message - "I'm the only one who can win!" - seems like naked bravado.

[KingCharlemagne]

35. If Lee's headquarters hadn't lost those copies of the orders on the march to Antietam (Sharpsburg),

Lee would have whipped McClellan's ass, enveloped Washington, and compelled Lincoln to sue for peace on terms favorable to the South.

Just my opinion.

[Maedhros]

45. That's one of the big "what ifs" of history,

right up there with "what if the Japanese had not lost their carrier fleet at Midway" and "what if the Sixth Army had bypassed Stalingrad."

I'm not going all-in on the Confederacy never having a chance, but only acknowledging that the case can be made.

[ieoeja]

54. McClellan's response to Lee invading Maryland, "now I get to kick Bobby Lee's ass".

And that is exactly what he did.

The evidence for McClellan sandbagging it against Lee is pretty overwhelming. He was attacked by Lee 6 times on the peninsula. He won 5 times. But he retreated after all 6 anyway.

First time he was removed from command, the two sides had fought to a standstill with a full third of the Union forces held in reserve. When the Union general ordered those reserves into battle, the CO of those reserves ordered a retreat. That man had been McClellan's right hand man.

That is when Lee entered Maryland and McClellan was put back into command. After "kicking Bobby Lee's ass", he pursued the fleeing Confederates across the entire state of Maryland as the Confederate government in Richmond started packing up to run. Then at the Virginia border he suddenly realized that, "he did not have enough men".

Boy, he sure was lucky Lee didn't notice and turn around to fight before then, huh?

Shortly thereafter an officer on McClellan's staff informed an anti-war Senator that this was all according to plan. McClellan planned to march the army around, making feints at Lee, and defend the north from invasion with no intention of ever going into Virginia and defeating Lee there. He would do this until the politicians got tired and came to a political solution to the war.

The Senator was understandbly more upset at a rogue general than at the war itself. So he turned the man in. The staff officer was court-martialed, and McClellan quietly put out of the way.

McClellan's plan worked for a time. By sandbagging it against Lee, he made Lee look like some military genius. First time Grant took the field directly against Lee himself, he walked into a meeting with his eastern generals after the first day's fighting and found them speculating on what Lee would do next.

"I don't give a damn what Lee plans to do. He better be worrying about what I'm about to do!"

Lee was actually happy when Union forces swung around him and headed deeper into Virginia. He had been itching for a fight, but the Union generals kept retreating after the first day's fight. He wasn't as happy as some Union soldiers though. When the order the next day came down to pack up their bags and get ready to march out, one soldier wrote in his diary that, "this fighting General is a damn coward just like the rest of them. We've been ordered to retreat again." His next entry was, "South! We're going South. Took us awhile to realize it. When it finally dawned on us the whole army let out a cheer and started singing. I haven't seen anything like this since the early days of the war."

There has been a lot of speculation about why Lee got so confused at Gettysburg. Personally, I think he was confused simply because he had also begun to believe in his military genius. He couldn't figure out how he could possibly not be winning. The difference was that he was now the invader. So the Union generals had no choice. They had to fight. Every time they stayed for the fight, Lee lost.

[KingCharlemagne]

59. In his memoirs (I think), Longstreet confessed that he tried to talk Lee out

of attacking the Union forces at Gettysburg and instead trying to flank them. But Lee had his war on, according to Longstreet, and there was no stopping him.

You might enjoy Alan Nolan's Lee Considered, which goes a long way to stripping the mystique from Massa Lee.

[Orsino]

30. I don't think Sanders supporters should have to fear this question...

...any more than Clinton's should have last week.

We were alive eight years ago, and know what a war looks like.

[Avalux]

37. Now THAT is a red herring if I ever saw one. n/t

[PonyUp]

43. ...

?w=440

[H2O Man]

46. Gracious!

[orpupilofnature57]

51. Which one ?