Slate:"Why Do Young People Have Such Visceral Dislike for Hillary?"

[Attorney in Texas]

link; excerpt:

That Democrats have a generational split in their presidential primary isn’t a surprise. Young Democrats flocked to Barack Obama in 2008, to Howard Dean in 2004, to Bill Clinton in 1992, and in one of the most famous examples, to George McGovern in 1972. What’s different about this primary is the size of the gulf between young Democrats and the rest of the party. Eighty-four percent of voters between 17 and 29 backed Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders in the Iowa caucus, and in the latest New Hampshire polls, he leads Clinton by an almost 9-to-1 margin.... I asked ... young participants in presidential politics, what was the problem with Hillary Rodham Clinton? What was so off-putting?

Speaking to students attending a Clinton event at Manchester Community College, the big answer was Wall Street. “I’m concerned with her talks with Goldman Sachs—the big money that is behind her,” said Sarah Kocher, who was there with a group from Hofstra University in New York. By contrast, she admired Sanders’ stance against “the big money and the banks.” “Bernie is very honest,” she said.... “I get the impression from Hillary that as soon as she gets in office … she wouldn’t be an effective president,” said Michael Hathaway, “and if she was effective, it wouldn’t be for me, it would be for her banker friends who were giving her millions of dollars.”

Sitting next to Michael was Lexis, who had less to say about Clinton’s ties to Wall Street, and more to say about her campaign appeals. “I have a very large problem with the fact that a very large part of her campaign is riding on the fact that she’s a woman, and expects people like me—women—to vote for her,” she said. She continued: “All I have heard so far is ‘I’m a woman vote for me, because we need a woman president.’ We’ll have plenty of time in the future for women to run, for qualified, worthy women to run. We need to get over this concept of immediate gratification that’s driving this campaign.”... Hillary... backed the corporate-friendly policies that young Democrats are rebelling against, but she isn’t responsible for them.

I don’t have an explanation here, but I have a theory. It’s obvious that the left turn among young voters is a product of the Great Recession. For Americans who left high school or finished college in 2008, 2009 and 2010 (I’m part of this group, for the record), the economy was a wasteland, with little opportunity and tremendous competition. Young people—and especially college graduates—were promised a pathway into the middle-class and received, instead, a dead end.... What matters is that to these young voters Hillary Clinton was on the wrong side when it mattered. And that Bernie Sanders, as flawed as he might be, wasn’t.

SEC. CLINTON, PLEASE RELEASE YOUR WALL STREET SPEECH TRANSCRIPTS TO CURB THE GROWING MISTRUST. RECALL HOW POORLY THE OSTRICH DEFENSE WORKED ON THE E-MAIL SCANDAL. PLEASE SHOW US YOU HAVE LEARNED FROM THAT MISTAKE.

[Hun Joro]

1. It's women of all ages.

[Karma13612]

124. true, well, at least for me.

62 year old white female here.

I just don't get her appeal or her message

Go Bernie

[Stardust]

2. I think she personifies the passive-aggressive mother, supervisor, teacher we've all come to despise

[bettyellen]

7. Whoa. Interesting admission on your part. I remember reading that men often cannot handle

women supervisors when they have not gotten over their childhood resentment of their Mom and decided that "no woman would ever tell them what to do" again.

Looks like you have some self admitted mommy issues.

[closeupready]

11. DU has the most amazing armchair psychiatrists and Ph.D.'s here.

I am in AWE of your ability to diagnose, from merely a few keystrokes on a message board. Seriously awesome.

[bettyellen]

19. this poster assumes "we've all come to despise" many good women in our lives?!?! LOL.

They pretty much pointed themselves out in the DSM, with that incorrect assessment. Everyone hates their Mom supervisors, and female teachers? Nope, nope nope- that is bizarre projection.
Some people grow up!

[Armstead]

70. And many people resent guys who remiond them of mean Dads, bosses and drill sergeants

Is that sexist too?

[bettyellen]

77. you mean "passive aggressive" Dads, LOL. I think the obvious connection in that list is obvious.

Is there an assumption that everyone "has come to despise" a handful of men in their lives?
Who would assume such a stupid thing? No one.

[deurbano]

165. Exactly. And it's so personal. How is she different from Kerry? (And he's a multi-millionaire, too)

I understand wanting a different kind of Democrat, including someone who is not actually a Democrat. (I voted for Sanders for governor in 1976 when I lived in in Vermont... and met him when he came through the Bay Area on a book tour almost twenty years ago; I've been a fan for a lot longer than most here.) But I don't get the "visceral dislike" (more like contempt... hatred) for Clinton. And the need to gleefully celebrate possible legal troubles or other setbacks. What if Sanders is not the nominee? Is it in anyone's best interest for her to be completely destroyed going into the general?

[bettyellen]

168. Bernie was just saying the same- Dems will HAVE to come together soon. You hit the nail on

the head- it is way too personal, and contemptuous. I think people who let it get too personal are susceptible to being trolled- the gleeful fake hang-wringing over Bill Clinton looking ill being a huge misstep. Jeeze, some were obviously hoping he would die. So much for integrity- or being a mensch.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

126. The poster opened themselves up to it pretty nicely

I know your natural inclination is to protect the fellow Bernie supporter, but boy, you have to admit they said quite a bit there.

[regnaD kciN]

181. Especially amazing that they can also diagnose someone's gender from that...

...especially when it turns out to be wrong.

[bettyellen]

198. Too bad I never did guess a gender. Diagnose? WTF does that mean, LOL.

Gender is not an illness- but putting words in peoples mouths MIGHT be a symptom of something. LOL.

[hobbit709]

18. I've had women supervisors that were competent and I've had some

that couldn't find their ass with a map, a flashlight, and GPS.
I had no problem with the competent ones.
And I had about the same percentage of male supervisors in each category.

[bettyellen]

20. Have you "come to despise" multiple women who just happened to be in a more powerful

position than you? Apparently that power thing seems to inspire hatred in that poster. Do I have to connect the dots- that they assume everyone hates their Mom or female bosses?

[hobbit709]

24. Only the incompetent and greedy ones.

[bettyellen]

31. How many young students know how "greedy" their teachers are? Their bosses?

I don't see that holding water. I see a dude who hated ever having women in power over him, and he still has;t gotten over it. I've met a lot of guys who have a very hard time with that, over the years.

[hobbit709]

35. A long time ago I learned to recognize those

that wanted power and it's benefits(?) so badly they could taste it and were willing to say and do whatever it took to achieve it.
To me Hillary is one of those people.

[bettyellen]

38. When you were a child- or student in school? LOL- pretending there is no context is hilarious....

the dude probably only left "wife" off that list of women who get to tell you what to do, because he doesn't have one yet. But that is obviously what it is- a list of women who were allowed to boss him around. The nerve, right?

[hobbit709]

41. By the time I was 16, since I'm 65 now, it was a long time ago.

[bettyellen]

52. I don't agree with you it is normal to "despise" multiple women and think that has

some actual political significance to boot.
I think it is fucking sad and that's about it.

[pangaia]

32. Is that what you remember reading?

[bettyellen]

42. When someone admits despising many women in power.....I believe them.

When they assume everyone despises that many women, I know their worldview is kind of stunted.

[zentrum]

33. Baloney.

It's totally possible to not have "mommy-ssues" and yet be able to identify the kind of sociological archetype Hillary represents. Her body language, inappropriate moments of laughing, her brittle "as if" sincerity—combined with her actual corporate funding—makes her patently like other untrustable women one has encountered in life.

BTW—do you assume that the poster you're speaking to is male and therefore more likely to be intolerant of women being in charge? Quite an assumption, if so.

Myself—I'm female, and yet see how incredibly easy it is to see HRC as being exactly like one of the "passive aggressive" women runs across in life.

I thought the remark was insightful. Because it's about her electability.

[bettyellen]

55. I don't assume anything other than they deeply resented women in control- so much so,

that they are working on the assumption that the rest of us do too. That is pretty fucked up.
I do think it could impact her electability- but that's because many people still hate powerful women, and yeah- they learn it young.

[zentrum]

117. Gee, I don't

…know. I don't think they're going to react in these myriad negative ways to Elizabeth Warren.

She's a strong woman, in control and is growing more powerful all the time.

Hope she'll be our first female President. I think she'll be incredibly effective.

[bettyellen]

122. Elizabeth Warren is deeply unknown. No one knows why the fuck she was a republican....

during the 80's when they were at their worst. She has a lot of explaining to do before she is remotely viable.
I find the people who believe there are currently only two good Dems on earth to be a bit simple minded.

[zentrum]

141. No, the Republicans were at their

....worst in the 2000's when they took us to War. Which HRC voted to support. And, yes, I do know what Reagan did to our economic system and unions and ContraGate. There's never a good Republican.

Country doesn't have to know Warren yet—they'll find out. They had never before heard of Bernie either. And now look.

HRC was a young Republican too. A Goldwater Republican.

But I guess HRC is the only one who's allowed to "evolve"?

I'm sure Warren can explain her past. She's very congruent when she speaks. Besides, she has nothing so complicated to 'splain as a multimillion dollar Foundation while contracts are being awarded as SOS, etc.

Warren sure is a fighter for economic parity now. And has a lot to say about HRC and how her position on the bankruptcy bill screwed the middle class. See Bill Moyer's interview of Warren.

Never said there are only "two good Democrats". Simply observed that Warren is a woman and is also strong, and powerful in Congress and yet doesn't seem to arouse that "untrustable" feeling in people who observe her. And then you ran with another, rather strange, assumption.

[bettyellen]

148. the Republicans of the 80s were hateful bigots and that matters to many.

she has never explained her conversion except in terms of economic policy. for all we can tell she did not have a problem with those bigots- and that has been noted in the press many times.
she has a narrow niche she excels at as a senator, and nothing else. awesome if you are a one issue voter.

[zentrum]

163. Whoa.

Of course bigotry—racism—matters.

Goldwater, HRC's guy, was one of six Republicans at the time, to vote against the 1964 Civil Rights Act. In fact, he was seen as the ideological leader of Southern segregationists because of his national profile.

Wonder if you ever have a policy disagreement with someone and can keep from twisting it into personal insults.

"Simple minded". "Single issue".

Telling.

PS—I'm done.

[bettyellen]

166. sorry, but life is too complicated to solve with one easy trick.

[840high]

130. ..+1

[greymouse]

62. female here

I don't recall encountering a "passive-aggressive mother, supervisor, teacher" and I despise Hillary, because she's a phony, incompetent, ignorant about foreign policy (ex: Libya, Iraq, Haiti). Wall Street minion.

[bettyellen]

69. do you think "we have all come to despise" moms, teachers and female bosses though?

[Glamrock]

160. Not all...

I dig strong women. My wife currently makes a few bucks more than me. Never bothered me. I don't feel emasculated in any way, shape, or form. However, in the interest of full disclosure...I'm a rock musician.

[zentrum]

115. ^^This^^

I think different people describe the qualities they see in her and in her behavior in different ways.

She was ignorant about Korea too. When Bernie named that as our biggest current threat, and he explained why, she scoffed. But then within about day of that, N. Korea shot off a ballistic missile. One that could carry a nuclear warhead.

[Stardust]

100. Whoa. First of all, I'm female and Hillary's age. To interpret my comment that I hate all women in

power is ridiculous on its face.

Bettyellen, consider yourself very fortunate that you've never run across the passive-aggressive women that I have in my life. Lucky you. I've worked all over the world and have run across many. Of course, there are more wonderful ones, but that's not the point.

Second, thank you for the analysis of my mommy issues. I can't explain thIs deep resentment I have because my mother was the kindest, most generous woman I have ever known.

[bettyellen]

108. I never guessed your sex. You imagined "most of us despise many women" they have known.

The only thing the women you listed have in common is women who have power over those they interact with. So, 2+2=4.
I feel sorry for you that you imagine that "despising women"- mommy's in particular- is the rule, rather than the exception. Literally sorry to hear anyone thinks that is the norm.

[Stardust]

114. You are so far off base, I don't know where to begin. Look up ther definition of passive-aggressive

and you'll find it doesn't mean "mean."

Have nice day.

[bettyellen]

118. You are off base when you imagine all this despising of women. That shit is not healthy- sorry.

[jeff47]

197. No, your caricature of another poster is off-base.

Continuing to cling to that caricature does not make it more accurate.

[roaminronin]

175. Thanks for womansplain' that

didn't know that having a vagina made you a psychotherapist. I'm a 50 year old woman, but I agree so must have some "Mommy" issues too.

[Vinca]

13. I think you're on to something.

When she goes into shriek mode I drift back to the 1960's and the old crone who was my stepmother.

[bettyellen]

21. WOW. More mommy issues over here.

[Vinca]

185. That's very true.

My mother died of cancer at a very young age. I was 7 years old. For 60 years I've wished that I had really known her. My mother was someone I would have learned much about being a woman from. She was a WAVE during WWII and a nurse. She taught me to read and write when I was 4 years old. I have fond memories of my mother making raspberry jam in the kitchen while I sat with pencil and paper copying the letters from a Campbell's tomato soup can. So, yes. I have mommy issues. The stepmother wasn't quite as wonderful . . . by a long shot.

[LondonReign2]

203. Oops. I'm sure bettyellen is very sad about haranguing you with her

incorrect assumption.

[Stardust]

101. Well, my mother was great but I've known plenty of crones. nt

[zentrum]

34. See my comment below.

[jwirr]

51. LOL, as I read I saw the picture of her waving her finger in the

face of the young BLM group and telling them "then I'll talk to white people all the time."

[SheilaT]

89. I've seen the video, and it's breathtakingly arrogant

and offensive, and it's unfathomable to me that after that she could possibly have any support in the African American community.

[Stardust]

103. She needs to work on her care-actor.

[swilton]

54. For me and for what it's worth

I'm a professional woman of Hillary's age (-) and I remember how hard I worked and despite my education, experience and other credentials that were much greater than those 'above' me, I couldn't get ahead.

I see in Hillary someone who has reached her power through her husband's coat-tails.

I hope this doesn't sound sexist but I see in Hillary what I have seen in DC and what has sickened me in DC the nepotism and cronyism and the undisclosed connections that gave people the edge.

I have voted for Jill Stein and although I like her policies as much or more than Bernie's I think the fact that he has had 'inside the beltway' experience gives him a better chance than Stein to implement reform.

[Stardust]

105. Thank you for your comment.

[Helen Borg]

74. Manipulative, condescending...

Any more attributes?...

[Stardust]

107. Oh boy, did you sum it up.

[VulgarPoet]

191. Insincere, artificial, saccharine, cancer, warmonger, republican-lite?

[pnwmom]

111. Women are used to having male candidates remind them of their fathers

and not always in a good way.

We won't have a just society till men get over their mommy issues.

[noiretextatique]

186. Um, no. She has no populist message

Only the people who are doing well want to stay the course and except incrementalist crumbs.

[Dustlawyer]

3. Where are the TRANSCRIPTS HILLARY??????

[ViseGrip]

4. cuz she's a one percenter?

[cosmicone]

5. Young people are rebellious and anti-establishment

By manipulating them into thinking Hillary is "establishment" when she didn't even run for political office until 2000, they have been hoodwinked. Actually, Bernie is far more "establishment" than Hillary but youngins have another trait - they hate studying.

[beam me up scottie]

6. When will Hillary tell her supporters to stop attacking millenials?

[bettyellen]

8. like they are "low info" voters with "stockholm syndrome"? LOL. Okay.

[beam me up scottie]

12. That's exactly what they're saying, very astute of you!

You get a cookie! 🍪

[bettyellen]

26. That Op was written about POC, and got loads of recs from Berners - but please proceed....

[beam me up scottie]

28. And yet you guys are doing the same thing to millenials and especially young women.

Go figure.

The sexist comments about young women who support Bernie are disgusting and none of you guys have spoken up, why is that?

[840high]

132. Good point - I had a

conversation with a young man about that today.

[beam me up scottie]

136. They need to start calling out their associates, the things they said were cruel.

And they're doubling down on millenials.

Do they not realize they need those voters?

[bettyellen]

170. I saw Albright say something stupid, but DUers not so much. OTOH, I saw DUers say stupid shit that

would embarrass Bernie, but they say claim they are for him. Interesting, all of it.

[beam me up scottie]

171. Then you need to read more, bettyellen, they've been saying stupid things since before Albright.

You need to call out your associates.

[bettyellen]

172. No thanks, I am pretty much done after the wishing Billl dead thread. If that gross

ass trolling is accepted as normal here, Albright is not really a big deal.
She (and Duers) wasn't hoping Bernie gets sick and drops dead.

[beam me up scottie]

173. Cognitive dissonance: ur doin it rite

[VulgarPoet]

192. Didn't you see what Bettyellen was doing literally just upthread?

Trying to paint someone as sexist for offering an anecdote (that admittedly could have been phrased better).

[cosmicone]

9. Those who have become staunch Bernie supporters

from the so called "anti-establishment" propaganda are a lost cause.

The undecideds are the thinkers and they will break for Hillary -- especially in the non-NE states.

Let the vetting of Bernie start and let the deceptions, innuendos and manipulations come out.

[beam me up scottie]

16. Very good, that's exactly the problem I'm talking about. You get a cookie too.

[farleftlib]

10. The only manipulating going on

is that being done by madam secretary and her surrogates. And those who are smart enough to realize they're being manipulated, resent it. That is all.

[Old Crow]

17. Well, that's a winning strategy.

If your candidate isn't attracting as many younger voters as you'd like, a good approach is to write off the entire demographic as naive, easily-tricked, and averse to learning.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sour%20grapes

[beam me up scottie]

22. And then wonder why they don't support your candidate.

[bettyellen]

36. Let's be honest- will they vote in the midterms or be pissed off the revolution didn't happen?

My friends I spoke with this weekend had NO IDEA what a lame duck the next president will be. They are bewildered they were promised so much. Now they don't know what to do. But they also sat out the last 2-3 elections and blame everyone else for the state of things.

[Old Crow]

43. From your question, it's pretty clear you think they won't vote in the midterms.

I don't know whether they will or won't. If a new president shakes up establishment politics, they certainly might.

Either way, I'm certainly not willing to write off the 20-something voters. 20-somethings have changed the course of U.S. politics before. They could do so again.

[bettyellen]

49. I'm curious about when this was true? 20-somethings have changed the course of U.S. politics before.

I am a deeply cynical person. And most young people have looked at me as if I have three heads when I talk about down ticket races or congressional obstructionism. They are also pretty confused about the Supreme Court's role. I truly hope they do start learning, because as it is, they are set up for deep disappointment.

[Old Crow]

66. Here are a few topics to Google to bring yourself up to speed.

No condescencion intended here; hoping you take the list below in the spirit it's offered.

1. Anti-Vietnam War Movement AKA Peace Movement
http://www.ushistory.org/us/55d.asp

2. Environmental Movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_movement_in_the_United_States

3. Civil Rights Movement
https://www.loc.gov/collections/civil-rights-history-project/articles-and-essays/youth-in-the-civil-rights-movement/

[bettyellen]

82. Interesting- the Boomers are slammed here repeatedly, but at least you are trying to

give them some credit. I am aware of the history- but did not expect that answer, so thought I might have missed something earlier in the 20 century. Not offended at all- thanks!

[jeff47]

199. Boomers are slammed for what they did after their 20s.

Started out well. But then time continued.

[bettyellen]

200. I had read it was "the greatest" that put Reagan in power. And that shit snowballed

with the media takeover. Dark days.

[jeff47]

201. The media takeover was in the 1990s.

Bill Clinton signed the bill that repealed the laws blocking today's media monopolies.

As for 1980, Reagan did do better among older voters, but Boomers didn't exactly line up behind Carter en masse.
http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-1980/

[bettyellen]

205. the fight against the Fairness Doctrine started in the 80's, which laid ground for

the take over in the 90's.

Carters fiscal policies would make him a pariah among Sanders supporters, but you are right- he certainly was "the lesser of two evils". Boomers were younger then, and voted less reliably, which sucks.

[cali]

47. They overwhelmingly understand that bernie

can't do it without changing the Congress. Just go to reddit

[bettyellen]

56. If only the average voter was a Redditor! But they aren't.

[Mother Of Four]

106. Uhm actually - reddit is insanely popular.

https://www.reddit.com/about/

stats at a glance (as of Feb 09, 2016)

last month, reddit had
231,002,204
unique visitors

hailing from over
217
different countries

viewing a total of
8,194,956,819
pages

yesterday, reddit powered
10,285
active communities

consisting of over
3,278,892
logged in redditors

casting over
29,395,265
votes

[bettyellen]

109. I know- but now post the demographics and do that math!

[Mother Of Four]

121. Post the demographics and do the math?

How about this - World wide and USA ranking of both tumblr and reddit.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/reddit.com

Reddit is 32nd worldwide, and 9th in the USA

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/tumblr.com

Tumblr is 44th worldwide, and 19th in the USA

Both of them are insanely popular, and both of them have a demo base that encompasses all ages. Even tumblr, which is largely considered to be a "college kids" site is only 69% millennials. Out of tumblr's user base of 420,000,000 people that means 130,200,000 members are NOT millennials.

You don't have to be a redditor to view reddit, or a tumbler to view tumblr. Before you disparage an entire community of over 231 MILLION unique visitors per month (reddit) you might want to check into what you're saying first.

Now do your own math. I'm done here.

[bettyellen]

123. I have been a Reddit reader for many years, LOL. It's mostly young white men- in case you hadn't

noticed. The Sanders groups, even more so. I know that seems "mainstream" to many many people, but that is actually no longer our electorate.

[Fawke Em]

209. LOL. There's a lot of women on there - even some older ones.

I know. I am one.

[retrowire]

27. Dat ain't the establishment. lol You clearly don't get it. nt

[Krytan11c]

30. Tell me more about me, please!!!

I'm a millennial, on the older side of the demographic. I have no aversion to studying political candidates, hell that's why I chose Bernie.

[Old Crow]

71. Winning comment.

Yay! This made me smile.

[Krytan11c]

92. Thanks old crow!!

[gelatinous cube]

45. Millennial Here!

Few things...

1. Dead wrong on rebelliousness: We are not Generation X, we don't fight against our parents, teachers or the government for the sake of it. We're confident. We're self-taught and independent. What you take for rebelliousness is, in fact, a desire to be treated with more respect for our ability to learn, think and understand the world around us.

2. Manipulate? Yeah...: Social media, and that confidence I explained above, makes us one of the hardest Generations to manipulate. Internet searches allow us to bypass the corporate news channels and go straight to the actual events. Why do you think the early strategy of ignoring Bernie failed? He got 20 seconds of TV time to Donald Trump's 81 minutes, yet here he is, an equal contender to Hillary in this race.

3. "Youngins": please don't use such a condescending term when referring to us.

4. "Hate Studying": Again, you seem to make assumptions on this generation. While I personally never study, for my own reasons, a large percentage of my peers do spend a large amount of time studying.

5. Now, please explain to me with facts, data and explanations how Hillary is less establishment than Bernie.

[cosmicone]

65. hi low-post count person

enjoy your stay here

[frylock]

129. Classic.

Condescending and dismissive. That's the way to win them over!

[cosmicone]

133. Generally, newbies who post like pros

are discovered to be socks.

That may not apply in this case but .... there is a high likelihood.

We shall see how it develops.

[gelatinous cube]

155. I'll take that as a compliment n/t

[840high]

135. You were never low post? How special.

[chknltl]

167. Over the years I have suffered losses here at DU

Among those losses was watching as Dennis Kuccinich passed from Congress and an even deeper pain when Madam Speaker Pelosi took impeachment off the table. Never once in my deepest depression did I think it wise to be rude to a newcomer to the Big DU.

[think]

78. Welcome to DU. Thank you for your input.

[gelatinous cube]

84. Happy to be here n/t

[Rocky the Leprechaun]

161. Your username brings me back to Nethack days

where I would kill a gelatinous cube, eat it, and polymorph to something else for a short awhile.

Fun!

[SheilaT]

96. I'm the mother of a couple of Millennials, and you've

captured a lot about them in a nutshell. Plus, the condescension in the post you're responding to is absolutely breathtaking.

I spent over ten years taking classes at a junior college, constantly sitting next to 19 year olds. This was a while back, so I was mostly sitting with Gen Xers, but my point about gaining enormous respect for the younger generation is the same, whichever generation we're talking about.

I'm a Boomer, and I recall all too clearly how we were constantly trashed by our elders as we came of age, and it enrages me to hear it about the current younger generation.

[Blus4u]

156. Excellent post!!

And I welcome you to the DUconversation.
Glad you are here!


Peace

[chknltl]

162. Well said. Welcome to the Democratic Underground

Last primary season saw fierce debate and sadly a little open bitterness for a few whose candidates/issues faired poorly. Over the years, I have experienced my wins and losses but in the end I move forward with my sisters and brothers here. Welcome to our family gelatinous cube.

[Odin2005]

59. Wow, more ageist condescending screeds about "those dumn kids" by Hillary supporters.

[Bettie]

79. Perhaps it has something to do with Clinton's supporters

assuming that they are uninformed.

Seriously, I'm a middle-aged woman and the "youngins" tend to be pretty well informed overall.

Dismissing them might be part of the problem. Insulting their intelligence might be part of the problem.

[mikehiggins]

85. I find posts like this, that claim Hillary is not establishment, are incredible.

Have you noticed the blitzkrieg going on in New Hampshire? Bernie's gang is up against the most formidable political organization in the United States. It is a miracle they have held on as long as they have.

They are up against people for whom lying is a way of life, who cheerfully accept praise from Darth Cheney's Sith Master, Henry Kissinger, who have surrogates that equate money raised for the Democratic Party by an official Democratic agency with millions of dollars paid by special interests for speaking fees. Who compare a Nurse's Union PAC with a group cheerfully accepting fifteen million dollars from Wall Street and others to propel HRC into the White House.

None are so blind as they who WILL not see.

The truth is not out there. It is right here, right now, right in our faces.

[Chakab]

125. So her time as a board member of Walmart and as "co-president" gave her no ties the establishment

because she hadn't actually run for office yet?

BTW are you saying with a straight face that you actually think it's feasible for a carpetbagger with no experience in elected office to win a New York Senate seat if they aren't part of the establishment?

[DonCoquixote]

127. but youngins have another trait - they hate studying.

wow, it is going to be fun when you beg those "youngins" for their help come Fall. I bet you wont even pretend to want to extend an olive branch.

[Herman4747]

138. Bernie more establishment??? 1 thing you should know, though...

Bernie was never part of the WalMart establishment.

[roaminronin]

178. Community vs Narcissism

She is Establishment. Unfortunately, Ole Hill's been sleeping with the enemy, and I don't mean Bill.


Her pursuit of bonafides over the years has put her in the direct line of fire. She is on tape lecturing against gay marriage and for the Iraq War, both of which her current opposition was on the other, and correct, side of history.

Many younger people, female and male, that see the presumptuous "me first" generation, the last ones to actually collect a middle class retirement, as the source of the problem. Ever notice how many time Hillary says "I" in her press statements? You should be SO impressed, but she has no interest in you except what you can do for her, classic narcissism.

Social media and social activism override the white noise emitted from her spin doctors. Young people don't watch TV, and if they knew who either Gloria Steinem or Madeline Albright were from 30 to 40 years ago, as of this week they sure don't care. Just more Baby Boomers that haven't had to look for a job lately.

The thing that these old fogies don't seem to realize is that by keeping everyone poor, the younger generations became less dependent on their "leaders" and more reliant on community. So instead of the cult of personality "me" generation, it is now the "we" generation. This is a phenomena that Bernie's 30 years of actual community service was made for. Whether he is wearing pants or a girdle is completely up to him.

PS.

Me? I'm a little older. Old enough to remember Margaret Thatcher. I hear she was a woman too. How'd that work out?

[noiretextatique]

187. Your candidate sucks: young people know it

That's a far more realistic explanation.

[LondonReign2]

204. Oh good, more Hillaryites attacking young people

Stunning they don't like your candidate, isn't it?

[loyalsister]

14. They want a better future

and she unapologetically personifies everything that makes it seem bleak. Runaway greed, political ties to wall street, the wars that have sucked so much out of our economy, etc.
She just keeps making it worse by telling us all to give up on any idealism that we might want to grasp and focus, not on what WE can get done but on paragmatism and what SHE can get done.

[Fumesucker]

15. Young people are less tolerant of hypocrisy, it really rankles them

After a while most of us become numbed to the environment and quit caring so much.

[TheBlackAdder]

23. The definition of feminism has changed.

.



Talking with my teen and twenty-something children, and the kids at university, feminism no longer follows the 70's and 80's new feminism definition of having a woman succeed and break through the glass ceiling--it follows the Bell Hooks' definition, where everyone is treated equally, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion. The oppression below is any type of oppression.


"Feminism is a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation and oppression."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_hooks


====


Check out her book on this subject, "Feminism Is for Everybody: Passionate Politics"


http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/feminism-is-for-everybody-bell-hooks/1111890589


====


Now, read up on her completely destroying Sheryl Sandberg's "Lean In"...


http://www.thefeministwire.com/2013/10/17973/









.

[Cassidy]

58. Thanks for the definition and great links

It has never made sense to me when people think exchanging patriarchy for matriarchy is what feminism is about. Usually I have heard that type of definition from anti-feminists. Bell Hooks' definition, i.e. treating people equally, is the only one that makes sense and the only one that means true change and progress for humanity.

[retrowire]

25. For me,

it's the "out of touch" feeling I get from her.

It's the "That's nice sweetheart" pat on the head feeling I get. She knows better and I should just follow her lead.

She's a public servant, elected by the people. She's not a leader unless we decide she is. And since this is my first time voting, I never gave her that privilege myself.

[bettyellen]

37. Interesting that more than half of the Bernie people I know have never voted before.

There are both good and bad things about that. I hope they keep up the habit.

[hobbit709]

61. Most of the Bernie supporters I know have been voting for 30-40 years or so, if not longer.

My mother is 84 and she despises Hillary.

[bettyellen]

67. I have a good friend who is really smart, but hates Hillary's personality...

he has been voting for many years, and I usually respect his opinion. He was surprised to hear how sexist his wife and I thought he sounded. He can't seem to help it though.

[1StrongBlackMan]

63. Well (let me drop this here) ...

Notice. The OP is all about a "Visceral Dislike for Hillary" by young people ... that has been rec'd 43 times ...

And, not a single cry of "Divisiveness!!!"/"the Oligarchs tools - divide and conquer" to be heard throughout the DU land?

[bettyellen]

73. But we have people proudly admitting Mommy issues!

[1StrongBlackMan]

87. Must have missed that one. LOL.

[bettyellen]

91. apparently "we've all come to despise passive aggressive moms, teachers and supervisors"

Yeah, nope. Speak for yourself, LOL.

[1StrongBlackMan]

95. Yeah ...

I had to go back for that one!

[bettyellen]

97. It blows my mind that no one else said "Nope- not hating on a long list of women who

cared for and nurtured me though my years!" This is normal now? God help us.

[frylock]

131. Check Dr. Frist's diagnosis upthread.

[SammyWinstonJack]

68. Are you saying that you want people not to vote, only if they support

Bernie?

[bettyellen]

72. Nope, I am saying I am cynical about young people staying engaged past Bernie's

involvement in the race. I HOPE they will continue- because I know that is what it is going to take- a good 12-15 years of steady involvement before we get the serious change they want. No one seems to give a damn about the midterms. It is depressing.

I am a deeply cynical person. Sorry!

[retrowire]

86. I think, the habit will remain if I see a system that actually works for me. nt

[bettyellen]

94. But how many years is it before we can redraw the congressional districts? There is no quick fix.

And voters historically are impatient. We are in a tough situation.

[retrowire]

99. Indeed.

And not just voters in general, but our society as a whole has become one of short attention spans and immediate feedback.

No one is patient anymore. I think this is one of many factors to behind why Bernie is so well received. People are tired of the same old, same old kind of politics. We want things shaken up. No more picking the low hanging fruit because we actually do have the power to shake the whole tree.

I think a lot of us see Bernie as that choice.

[bettyellen]

104. Yeah, I wish I had more faith there will be a sustained effort. I volunteered for Super Tuesday...

but I don't think they will use out of staters to make calls. Too bad, because I am great on the phone, and by the time it gets to my state, it is over. Might have to find some other task to do that involves no meetings.
Am hoping to have the opportunity to help with some crucial down ticket races I don't know about yet in November.

[merrily]

29. I call bs. It's intellectual. Viscera have nothing to do with it, until

you know her past words, votes and other deeds.

[farleftlib]

39. ^^THIS^^

I used to admire her but she's shown herself to be an appalling flip-flopper and opportunist.

[bettyellen]

60. well you have people upthread likening her to a "mean mommy or teacher" so yeah....

that's real intellectual reasoning, LOL.

[jeff47]

202. Thank you Dr. Frist. (nt)

[Divernan]

40. Her use of the Ostrich Defense resulted in Bill's impeachment

Once upon a time, First Lady HRC received a subpoena from Senate Whitewater investigator, Ken Starr, to produce her billing records from her work as a partner at the Rose Law Firm. Against the advice of senior Democratic Senators, she refused to turn them over. Instead, she claimed she could not find them. This stretched out for TWO YEARS, until said records miraculously were found on a table in the White House family quarters. IF she had turned them over, as required by law via the subpoena, Starr would have closed down his investigation, at least a year before Monica Lewinsky ever set foot in the White House.

[bettyellen]

64. EVERYTHING THE REPUBLICANS EVER DID IS THE CLINTONS' FAULT!!!!

This I learned on the New DU, LOL.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

44. Maybe they don't see it as a popularity contest....

Naw, must be because they hate their moms and she reminds them of her.

Can't possibly be because of ISSUES.

People don't vote based on issues.

Don't be silly.

[Bettie]

46. I don't think it is dislike

of her personally as it is a dislike for the direction we're moving as a nation.

Young people are, by their nature, idealists and many of them will be drawn to leaders who embody that.

Clinton doesn't. She says over and over that she is not an idealist, spits it out like an epithet, as if it is the worst insult one can give.

[CharlotteVale]

48. It saves time.

[Ferd Berfel]

50. Triangulation, flipFlopping, Lies.....

The kids aren't stupid. They know she can't be trusted

[SammyWinstonJack]

53. The "I'm a woman, so vote for me" isn't going over all that well.

It's insulting!

Lexis gets it.

[amborin]

57. because the corruption is so blatant and shameless

[Fearless]

75. She's like the tea party uncle at thanksgiving dinner

We just shake our heads and ignore her.

[MrMickeysMom]

76. That is an ageist based assumption...

The truth, once exposed, applies to EVERY WOMAN. The women who can't believe this stopped reading comprehension at the elementary level.

Remedial reading is a good path to seeing through all the bullshit headlines from a press that doesn't do their job very well.

[beam me up scottie]

80. After reading the nasty comments about them from her supporters I'm starting to think it's them.

Maybe not all of it but they're not helping.

[LibDemAlways]

81. Not so much a dislike of Hillary as a dislike of

her message. Young people are idealistic and are looking for political leaders who inspire them and give them hope for a better future. In Bernie they see a candidate who knows we can and should do better as a nation. He champions diplomacy before war, cracking down on the tax dodging 1%, a fair shake for students burdoned by debt, and fundamental change to our health care system. He asks young people to vote for change. Hillary represents the old guard -- sabre rattling, cozy with banksters, telling students the government can't afford to provide them with a higher education and that single payer or Medicare for all will "never ever" happen. Not much there that is inspirational. She's promising more of the same in a system that is clearly rigged. No one should be surprised that young men and women prefer Bernie and his hopeful message by wide margins.

[jalan48]

83. I think it's because she's perceived as being a phony.

[Katashi_itto]

88. She just comes across as just another self-entitled oligarch that is only slightly more

charismatic than Trump. My personal opinion. No one's else.

[IronLionZion]

90. Definitely my mommy issues

which is why my mom is a big Bernie supporter! And she supported Obama 8 years ago!

[Nonhlanhla]

93. I would not call it Mommy issues

It is counterproductive to say that anyway. But as someone who has been teaching college freshmen for over a decade, I do think that a lot of the same dynamics that we perceive in academia are probably at play here as well. There's some research that indicate that students perceive and assess male and female professors differently. A female professor is less often seen as knowing what she is talking about, less often described as brilliant, and more often negatively reviewed if she does not somehow "mother" her students. A male professor who walks around with wild hair and tweedy jackets is seen as cool. A female professor who walks around with a similar look is seen as frumpy. (But if she wears business attire, she is seen as cold and distant.) I have seen this and experienced this myself over the years, and my colleagues (of both genders) have also discussed the different assessments that male and female professors receive.

I suspect that at least some of the visceral reaction to Hillary among younger people (and some older ones) have to do with underlying (and to themselves hidden) gender expectations. Hillary is not a soft and cuddly persona, and never has been, and she does not fit the ancient and to some extent still underlying image of what an older woman should be.

We've come a long way. And negative assessments with Hillary are certainly not only due to this kind of stuff. But some of clearly is.

[bettyellen]

116. Yep, I think there is an assumption that the youth are immune to that sort of stereotyping....

but someone else brought up the point that many think she is the "mean Mommy" because she is being pragmatic? I know a lot of people don't reconcile with their parents or really understand what it means to "make hard choices" till they are there themselves, but damn. If that kind of thing resonates with a voter, they might need to check on how irrational that actually is. I see a lot of anger, and much is beyond rational.

[Atman]

98. She's not the "cool mom."

Last edited Tue Feb 9, 2016, 09:03 PM - Edit history (1)

She's the mom who won't let 12 year olds watch PG-13 movies. She's the uncool mom. She reminds young people of everything they dislike about their annoying, hypocritical moms who grounded them for getting caught with a Budweiser while she was toking off the bong.

[bettyellen]

113. Wow, you are on to something.

But it's not actually a good something. I'm a bit horrified. Is Bernie the cool Dad who gives them stuff?
Oy vey, the electorate scares me.

[Atman]

140. We all knew them when we were teens.

The cool house you could hang out at. Billy's mom would make you pizza and talk to you without being condescending.

Then there was Susie's mom. She was a shrew, always in your business, making sure all the lights were always on, doing a hand check. That's Hillary. She's just not cool.

Bernie is cool. He's the uncle who'll sneak you a beer.

Love it or hate it, hark back to your youth. Who the hell wants to hang out with Susie's mom?

[bettyellen]

145. There is something deeply primal and stupid about those connections.

but I think you are right. when i brought up congress to a (newly political 30 year old) friend, she looked at me like I literally kicked her puppy. I felt sort of guilty (and NOT FUN!!) , she is 30 and yapping away about a candidate now- and only vaguely familiar with the three branches of government?

[Atman]

146. It's been a long time since I was young...

...but I still remember. Kids don't think the same way old folks do. Surprise! But far too many people overlook that. How on earth does anyone think an old lady in a purple polyester pantsuit is going to connect with 20-somethings?

In contrast, Bernie is NOT screaming "Get off my lawn!" He's telling young people to come hang out on the porch and share a kegger.

Just my armchair political psychology.

[bettyellen]

150. What's sad is she would have to be a younger and slimmer lady, soft pedaling it all

and buying the kegs to get any traction with some people. very odd.
I've always thought people who vote for who they want to have beer with are idiots, and I guess there are still lots of idiots out there.

[Atman]

153. I totally understand.

I'm just trying to get into a younger headspace. Hillary is just not a person anyone wants to hang with. Unless you're looking for someone to sell you the answers to the trig exam.

[bettyellen]

157. Yeah, I get it. I was amazed my friend just felt the Bern in the last month- previously her BF

had said Bernie was not at all viable, but it seems like they have both done a turnaround. She just has no idea how DC works and is a bit bummed to hear about congress. Ah well, I never liked hanging out with politicians. I feel like everyone only does it because they want something from them. I am deeply cynical, and only want to hang out with interesting and fun people. Politicians usually bore me, lol.
As always, very nice to chat with you, Atman... I'd buy you a beer before anyone running!

Cheers!

[noiretextatique]

188. She is not appealing...period.

The status quo simply does not appeal to peopke working three jobs to pay off student loans. Or just survive.

[Babel_17]

102. Lack of rapport (nt)

[NorthCarolina]

110. E S T A B L I S H M E N T

eom

[ejbr]

144. I agree

It's not her necessarily, but what she represents

[NorthCarolina]

149. People thought they were voting for Change with Obama. This time

they're guaranteeing it.

[malokvale77]

112. Because...

They know their future has been stolen so people like her can become ever wealthier.

[Arugula Latte]

119. As a middle-aged person, I have a visceral dislike for Hillary because

I've observed the sleazy maneuvering of both Clintons for 24 years.

[840high]

139. ..+1

[Matariki]

120. "Bernie Sanders, as flawed as he might be"

what does *that* mean?

[RKP5637]

128. In short, they see Hillary as the SOS which has not been good for many of us. n/t

[gyroscope]

134. Her deplorable low-down ugly campaign tactics of 2008

tells you all you need to know about her and her husband,
not the kind of people you ever, ever want leading the country.

And in 2016 nothing has changed, the Clintons are still as sleazy, mean-spirited and disgusting as ever.

[davidn3600]

137. Establishment. Young voters don't want the status quo

[billhicks76]

142. All Older People I See That Detest Her

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

147. A lot of old people listen to Rush Limbaugh

Who's made a cottage industry of lying and smearing the Clintons.

[bettyellen]

152. I feel like the only person on DU who actually knows a mix of supporters of all ages.

LOL. All these bizarre generalizations don't hold up in liberal areas.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

154. My parents are 82 and support Hillary

Hell, my father supported Kucinich, Bradley, Harkin, McGovern. He is normally the contrarian.

I have to play devil's advocate with them about Sanders.

My brother supports Bernie because he's still brainwashed by years of Rush that Hillary is pure evil.

[bettyellen]

159. honestly, there are many people I am afraid to ask- I don't want to hear it- LOL.

Half this board sounds brainwashed by Rush these days. Or Manny. Same shit, different format.
BTW- tis for the nice chat!

[billhicks76]

158. Have You No Shame?

Are you comparing Bernie to Rush now? Wow.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

164. That's what you got from my reply?

I don't really know if you are being disingenuous or what I said really went over your head.

So I'll say it again.

Rush Limbaugh had made a cottage industry of lying and smearing the Clintons

So if a lot of old people don't like Hillary, maybe that's where that's coming from.

By the way, you didn't even mention Bernie in the first post, you only said "All old people I know detest her"

For all I know, they could be fucking Trump or Bush supporters.

Have a nice evening.

[bettyellen]

169. Are you tripping? Who brought up Bernie here-- YOU, not the other poster.

Snap out of it and realize people here too, are literally posting RW crap all day long against the Clintons. Much of it originated with Limbaugh.

[billhicks76]

184. Just Being Real

Just to be clear if people want to have a brain. My enemies enemy is not my friend. That's where Democrats went immaturely astray.

[bettyellen]

194. So you think it is trolls posting all the links to Breibart, Rush and RW trash here?

If so, this place is infested now.

[jeff47]

143. Because they don't pay bills.

I'd like to thank some of our resident Clinton supporters for digging that piece of information up:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511184052

[noiretextatique]

189. Insane eom

[Babel_17]

207. If by "pay the bills" we're talking about paying the price for the thievery involved in the econ ...

If by "pay the bills" we're talking about paying the price for the thievery involved in the economic collapse, and supplying the bodies for The Forever War, I'll agree it's insane to say they don't pay the bills. I salute that generation of voters. Salute!

[Babel_17]

208. Like Colbert said, he doesn't trust young people ... (wait for it, lol)

He has the feeling that they're here to replace us.

But you have one thing that may save you, and that is your youth. This is your great strength. It is also why I hate and fear you. Hear me out. It has been said that children are our future. But does that not also mean that we are their past? You are here to replace us. I don't understand why we're here helping and honoring them. You do not see union workers holding benefits for robots.
Knox College commencement address (3 June 2006)

Another good one:

... Cynics always say no. But saying yes begins things. Saying yes is how things grow. Saying yes leads to knowledge. "Yes" is for young people. So for as long as you have the strength to, say yes.
Knox College commencement address (3 June 2006)

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Stephen_Colbert

[Logical]

151. She is not a good candidate. Not likable IMO. nt

[noiretextatique]

190. +1000 the bottom line

Is she comes off as unlikable and untrustworthy.

[senz]

174. She gives off a strong whiff of "phony" with deep undertones of "ego."

An especially pungent combination for those who are not dulled and jaded.

[yourout]

176. Its simple.. they don't trust her

[DebbieCDC]

177. This "old Democrat" shares that visceral dislike...

so put me with the young whippersnappers. I share their feelings about HRC as outlined in the Slate article.

I cast my very first presidential vote for George McGovern and if anything, I've gotten more liberal and progressive since then. This meme of getting older = getting more conservative is a load of bunk. I know plenty of boomers who support Bernie. I don't support nor will I support HRC just because we both check "Female" when asked for gender on a form.

[glinda]

179. Young people know we are out of time. Do it now or never. They get it. And Sanders knows it also.

[Hekate]

180. The Wizard of Oz called. He wants his straw man back.

My my my my. What a won-der-ful thread.

[djfm]

182. corporate war monger

I have a visceral dislike for any board member of Wallmart and any supporter of the Iraq debacle. Endorsements from Kissinger and Albright only support my position. To say I'm sexist or a Rush listener shows the desperation of Hillary trolls.

[marble falls]

196. What "Hillary trolls" are those? I'm confused.

[mhatrw]

183. Hillary is the political equivalent of a corset.

Young people just don't get why a candidate has to be so rigged and phony.

[GreatGazoo]

193. Big Brands are in trouble. Politics are no exception.

The era of big brands with big ad campaigns is closing. The era of transparency and peer-to-peer structure is coming to politics. The social media generation are especially tuned to separate BS from fact.

Clinton is much like the big food companies in this article, stunned and struggling in a new world of social media and transparency:

“We look at our business and say, ‘How can we remake ourselves?’ ” said Richard Smucker, CEO of his family’s namesake jelly giant. A second exec—this one at ConAgra, which owns 29 food brands that bring in $100 million in annual retail sales apiece—bemoaned to Credit Suisse analyst Robert Moskow that “big” had become “bad.” A third conveyed what her industry feared would be the largest casualty of the public’s “mounting distrust of Big Food”—that shoppers would turn away from them for good. “We understand that increasing numbers of consumers are seeking authentic, genuine food experiences,” said Campbell Soup Co. CEO Denise Morrison, “and we know that they are skeptical of the ability of large, long-established food companies to deliver them.”

http://fortune.com/2015/05/21/the-war-on-big-food/?src=longreads

[Katashi_itto]

195. Shes a Mcdonald's Big Mac. Cheap, filling, easy to understand and lousy for you in the long term.

[EndElectoral]

206. It's her constant evolving when it is self-serving.