2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhy Can't Sanders Supporters admit he's a Socialist?
There seems to be some reluctance to do so on the part of many. The say he's really just an old-fashion liberal democrat in the FDR, Truman mode rather than a DLC style democrat.
But that's not how Sanders has presented himself throughout his long career. He seems like a sincere, authentic, and proud Socialist.
I know the word has some negative valences with some. But you can't combat those negative valences by saying that well he's not really a socialist. The way to combat those negative valances would be to own the word and explain the approach.
I take it that's what Sanders is trying to do. His supporters -- at least those on this board -- seem less inclined to own the label.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)He may be a socialist but so what?
His policies are mainstream progressive policies, nothing too weird.
Socialism is awesome.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)where Bernie is planting his flag. I'm more of a socialist but this is close enough. I'm thrilled. Bernie is really opening doors for the conversation on socialism.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)Have you ever had an over-zealous prosecutor arrange to have you indicted by a grand jury?
tblue37
(65,483 posts)EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.
That's not what he believe in
Here's what he believes in:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
That's Bernie.
Socialism on the other hand is this:
"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."
Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.
Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Democratic socialism can mean a bunch of different things.
The election isn't about theories anyway, it's about practical policies and his policies certainly are mainstream American ideas.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Has a feature social ownership. Full stop.
Democratic Socialists do not believe in social ownership.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Depends what you mean my social ownership.
That could be implemented in a lot of different ways, with a lot of different mixes and combinations of government ownership, community control, and worker control.
These are some readings I'm drawing on for my understanding:
http://www.dsausa.org/toward_freedom
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/dsausa/pages/440/attachments/original/1372712435/Introductory_Readings_on_Democratic_Socialist_Theory_and_Practice.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism
It's OK if you have a different understanding than me on these definitions. I'd be interested to see what readings you are drawing on to arrive at your understanding.
Armymedic88
(251 posts)EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.
That's not what he believe in
Here's what he believes in:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
That's Bernie.
Socialism on the other hand is this:
"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."
Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.
Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)He is not a socialist. He does not advocate the govt taking over the means of production. He is not against regulated capitalism.
He IS for programs such as social security and he IS for govt regulation. That is Democratic Socialism, which is how he describes himself.
Now that you know, you can stop playing your little less than 'artful smear' games.
.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)He's a democratic socialist. Says as much himself. Why do you deny that? He's not a communist, that's to be sure.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Leave out "democratic"?
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Tells so much about the poster
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)Karma13612
(4,554 posts)the OP just feels bored and wants to stir up stuff.
I fell for it too, but got wise so, on to another diary.
Change has come
(2,372 posts)would be one guess
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Why are you pretending he said something else?
Do you not understand words yet? Or maybe it's numbers that throw you? There are two words in democratic socialist. The word democratic is a qualifier/descriptor. Did you not get that far in school yet? I'm not sure how much to explain to you since I don't know how old you are or what level you have reached in education. You seem to be struggling with very elementary concepts such as descriptors, qualifiers, even basic words and amounts of words.
.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)Well THANK YOU, KENNETH.
I'm glad we have that cleared up.
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)so am i.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)dana_b
(11,546 posts)and so that is what he is
tm1323
(23 posts)I honestly think in the objective sense, Sanders isn't a socialist, regardless of what he calls himself. The central tenant of socialism is government control of the means of production, and that's not Sanders' position. He's much more aligned with syndicalism than he is socialism.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Here's what he believes in:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)she's a Republican?
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)JRLeft
(7,010 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Our side would have a fit
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Ted Cruz. That one? Needs to go away forever. He actually groses me out on site. Slimy. Oily. Creepy. Like a park rapist.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)JRLeft
(7,010 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)bernie but i will have no problem voting for hillary.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Really, the only reason she was a "Democrat" in Arkansas was that she HAD to be, for the sake of her husband's career. In those days especially, it was almost the kiss of death to be a Republican at the state level, or being the governor with an overtly Republican wife. But she did lots of things that were certainly Republican-lite, including working as a corporate lawyer who defended utility companies against ACORN's citizen initiative to reduce electric rates, rubbing shoulders with Sam Walton and Don Tyson, and getting financing for Bill's presidential campaign from Mr. Arkansas Republican himself, Jackson Stephens.
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)She pissed off a lot of liberals during her time there, including several of my professors at the University of Arkansas, and my high school history teacher, who was as dyed-in-the-wool Democrat as you could ever find.
Her stint with as a corporate lawyer in Arkansas is documented, as is her defense of Arkansas utility companies against residential rate-payers, and her rubbing shoulders with Sam Walton on his board while not lifting a finger to help the unionization effort at Walmart.
Now you tell me, would a Democrat do that?
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)are acting like republicans.
the way some of you people act i'm almost ashamed to say i'm a bernie supporter. i don't want any connection with you -- that's why i'm not part of the sanders group.
flame away.
farleftlib
(2,125 posts)same as her husband.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)boobooday
(7,869 posts)We've ever had.
I've said that for years and years. And I voted for him twice, but not enthusiastically.
farleftlib
(2,125 posts)It's funny because the exact expression you just used "he was one of the best Republican presidents" is something I heard during his second term and it was what finally made me see him clearly. I hadn't realized how many passes I'd given him until the whole picture was put in front of me and I finally had to admit that he was way more to the right than I (and the Democratic Party was.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Beacool
(30,250 posts)Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)THe fascism hasn't been working. Lets try Socialism AGAIN. It worked before
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)I'll gladly say he's a Socialist". I'll even admit to him being a "Populist", and a "Liberal", and a "Progressive". Satisfied?
Armstead
(47,803 posts)When Bernie starts suggesting that all private property be banned, free enterprise capitalism outlawed, and requires that everyone report to a collective workcamp, check back with me.
I haven't seen anyone trying to deny that he's a socialist.
Why can't YOU leave the red baiting behind?
kennetha
(3,666 posts)LWolf
(46,179 posts)that is, sincerely or disingenuously, blind to the fact that there are different kinds of socialism, and that the "socialist" label used to red bait is not the democratic socialism that Sanders espouses, that's some of what you are going to get.
Or you could acknowledge that Sanders' democratic socialism is not the same thing as stricter, more conventional socialism.
Either way, I don't think any Sanders supporters won't freely acknowledge that he's a DEMOCRATIC socialist.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)at all
Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.
That's not what he believe in
Here's what he believes in:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
That's Bernie.
Socialism on the other hand is this:
"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."
Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.
Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)but in fairness, there are those who see it your way too:
http://www.salon.com/2016/01/16/bernie_sanders_is_no_socialist_socialism_is_his_brand_but_hes_a_democrat_in_every_way_but_name/
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)'"When Bernie is asked, Are you a socialist? he doesn't deny it, and he immediately talks about Scandinavia. He uses them interchangeably. But if you look at his history, he knows the distinction," Schwartz said.'
You can fixate on a word if you want, and you obviously are dishonesty doing just that, but at NO POINT has Sanders EVER advocated for social ownership. Without that there is no socialism - says anyone with more than a passing knowledge of socialism, and Scandinavia, or capitalism, or Bernie Sanders.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Almost all posters on this thread are Sanders supporters and you guys are all over the map. He's owned the term. He can't drop it. You can't call it red-baiting to have it pointed out. He has to deal with it. Obviously your side currently has no clue. Denying that he is a socialist will look like the very opposite of authenticity. the guy has been at this for decades. No way around it. I'm not saying the 'socialist' deserves the negative valences it has in some places of our body politic. But it does have them. You're not going to get around them by trying to shout down the use of the word, when the word comes out the candidate's own mouth.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)between the socialism that you are defining and the democratic socialism that Bernie espouses.
That's my point. The OP is pretending not to know the difference.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)He isn't proposing the government nationalize the financial industry, the energy industry, the telecomm industry, and the other sectors vital to national security. Go read some of the ACTUAL socialist websites, and you'll see them sneer at talk of him being a socialist.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Just as he describes himself.
H2O Man
(73,593 posts)dchill
(38,518 posts)What are you?
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.
That's not what he believe in
Here's what he believes in:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
That's Bernie.
Socialism on the other hand is this:
"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."
Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.
Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)It's the workers or the community owning the means of production that I see most often cited. The state need not even participate. Those systems don't usually allow for capitalism, but Bernie does.
I peg Bernie as a new, new dealer. Democratic socialist means about the same thing.
--imm
H2O Man
(73,593 posts)The one about state ownership is, of course, from the 1880s, during the industrial revolution. It is still accurate and fits in the context of that long gone time period. It does not fit today. And it in no way applies to Bernie, or the type of socialism that we advocate for today.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)redstateblues
(10,565 posts)I see where BSS accuse people of red baiting when they say he is a Socialist. Bernie has called himself a Socialist many times. He only added the word "Democratic" when he started thinking about running.
madokie
(51,076 posts)A proud socialist at that
kennetha
(3,666 posts)They're in denial.
Karma13612
(4,554 posts)But you knew that.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)hoosierlib
(710 posts)I'll admit, I'm a socialist.
I believe the government has responsibility to regulate the market place in order to ensure fair competition and to protect consumers. I believe that for certain parts of the economy, profit should NOT be the motivating force. This includes education, healthcare, basic utilities (water, power and the internet), transportation and food. I believe in a meritocracy, but at the same time acknowledge that factors like race, ethnicity, income and genetics (medically speaking) are inhibitors to a person's ability to achieve their highest potential (assuming they chose to) and those factors require government intervention / programs in order to mitigate their impact / influence. I also believe that those that benefit the most from our country, should pay the most in taxes. Lastly, I also believe that we should take of our elderly ensuring that they can age without having to struggle poverty and choose between medical care and giving up their home / assets.
If that makes me a socialist, then guilty as charged...
kennetha
(3,666 posts)seem like you. The other half seem in denial. Strange thing.
hoosierlib
(710 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)We're farther left than Sanders. We actually WOULD be socialists in office, not just 'democratic socialists'.
A 'democratic socialist' is a political label. A 'socialist' is an economic label. For all that Sanders might say about 'socialism', he's still a believer in capitalism, albeit a more tightly constrained capitalism. He fits in better with the Scandinavian countries, none of which is a purely socialist country either. They all still have varieties of capitalism.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)By this time, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to not know the difference between socialist and democratic socialist, as well as the way the term has been deliberately conflated with communism for the past 50 years.
So please, explain yourself as you are so innocently asking for explanations from others. Why are you asking the question you ask in the Op and why are you asking it in the manner of pretend naivety?
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)It would appear that OP is craving attention this evening. And I might point out to him that the only people afraid of socialists are right wingnuts.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Try not being so coy, I am sure you are a smart person. Why did you intentionally leave out "democratic"?
plus5mace
(140 posts)Socialists usually want to nationalize more than just health insurance. It would be better if he were more of a socialist; the US would be better off with banking and internet service provision served by public utilities, among others.
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)I was thinking he is more like a Social Democrat. So I began searching for what some of my favorite economists had to say, and I was surprised that they were favorable. Even Reich is happy with him. Richard Wolff has scrutinized what Bernie wants, and his comment was surprising: he sees what Bernie is doing as the next better phase of Socialism. I know, part of it was to give workers first option whenever a business is being sold. And federal assistance to do it.
So there's some really good potential that's within our present reach.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)than a socialist as far as his current platform goes. Doubt he's dumb enough to advocate for flat out socialism, in the current political climate.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Not gonna happen. Not even if we win back the House and the Senate
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)Going to the moon was difficult. This is relatively straight forward and academic. It's already being done. Putting highways through this country was a big job. The only difference between what we have now and what we could see with a Sanders president is more citizens would have a say in how things are done. In other words, a better democracy.
Its a testament to how fucked we are as a country that Bernie's modest reforms are viewed as an attempt on society
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)Imagine being ashamed to talk about something that's an improvement.
They're going to do it again soon. It'll be interesting to see how far they go.
cali
(114,904 posts)jen63
(813 posts)Pretty much admits to the shit stirrin'.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)not that you care
Red scare!
kennetha
(3,666 posts)is Socialism. It's a particular form of socialism, but it's socialism. It's not Marxist-Lenninist, that's for sure. The Democratic Socialists don't believe in the "revolutionary vanguard" that acts on behalf of the not ready for self-rule proletariat. That's for sure. The believe that social control of the means of production should be democratic social control.
Democratic Socialism is a huge political advance of the Marxist-Leninist vanguardism. But it's still socialism.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Gregorian
(23,867 posts)It's going to be painted something frightening, no doubt. I have a feeling Bernie can handle it. He's on his game.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)You are completely wrong.
And I fear you know that.
cali
(114,904 posts)libdem4life
(13,877 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)week it is.
Rocky the Leprechaun
(222 posts)not a regular socialist.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)And wtf is wrong with being a democratic socialist? Do explain. Scandinavia is positively crawling with them and those countries have the highest QOL and happiest people in the world.
islandmkl
(5,275 posts)I think this qualifies as the 'Pain Mixer' on sale category...
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Happy now?
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)as opposed to democratic socialist.
In other words, he's and FDR Democrat....ya know the good kind.
As opposed to the Nu-Democrats that are basically corporatists and militarists with some social equality bits thrown in here and there just to keep the horde at bay.
Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)People that think he is are confused.
He's a Democratic Socialist.
Which is not a socialist.
In the same way that a moon pie is neither a moon or a pie.
He believes in the Nordic Model.
He probably won't admit it because it's not true.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)just below
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.
That's not what he believe in
Here's what he believes in:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade.[7]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
That's Bernie.
Socialism on the other hand is this:
"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production;[7] as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment.[8] Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these.[9] Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[10] social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."
Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.
Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.
grntuscarora
(1,249 posts)For those quibbling with labels, I don't care if he is or isn't the textbook definition of "socialist".
I care that he's the best hope for the working class, for the disenfranchised, and for the poor.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)I am EXTREMELY aware that if we all get our wish and Bernie makes it to the GE these words WILL matter... Every vote counts and if being able to allay some fears helps then we gotta allay some fears...
grntuscarora
(1,249 posts)grntuscarora
(1,249 posts)and I have no problem with it.
I have a feeling many people working 3 jobs to make ends meet don't have a problem with it either.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)just above.
grntuscarora
(1,249 posts)People working three jobs to feed their kids don't give a damn about what you call Bernie Sanders. They give a damn about how their strugging to put food on the table.
Do try to wrap your head around that.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)he's been told the truth repeatedly and I think he's just trying to cause a fight or something...
grntuscarora
(1,249 posts)I'm out
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)smarter than me
okasha
(11,573 posts)Bernie isn't much of a socialist. He was a longtime conservative on gun issues and marriage equality, voted for the Border Wall and protection of white militias operating in the area, looooves him some MIC.
I suspect that he's kept the label long past its sell-by date to reinforce his chosen narrative of maverick independent. However honest it may have been once, it's now just a part of a carefully crafted image.
Z_California
(650 posts)Won't find many of them around here.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Apparently it works just fine with his low-info high-dudgeon supporters.
Thanks for confirming.
Z_California
(650 posts)Obviously I'm referring to your narrative that Sanders is on the wrong side of immigration, gay rights, and gun policy. I'm not sure who you think you'll convince with that sort of dishonest tripe.
There may be a position opening up for you in the HRC campaign though...
djean111
(14,255 posts)H-1B visas, I'm good with him. Don't care what label anyone is trying to slap on him, really.
Issues. Issues. Issues.
okasha
(11,573 posts)with the US version of the Berlin Wall--a position Sanders shares with Trump--and white terrorists operating along the Border.
Issues.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Plus I don't think it will happen.
I DO think Hillary will strive for war and the TPP/TPIP, fracking, cuts to Social Security, increased H-1B visas. And the GOP and DINOs will be glad to oblige.
Here is where those jeers about "purity" bite the dust - even if there are one or two things I don't like about Bernie's positions, there is not anything whatsoever that makes Hillary a better choice for me. Nothing.
okasha
(11,573 posts)The wall will result in a major loss of US jobs. It will crash not just the Border economy but every US business that relies on the Pacific Rim goods coming through the deepwater ports at Lazaro Cardenas and Nayarit and forwarded on US-owned carriers.
You think Mexico won't retaliate by damming a major economic stream? You think those goods can't go to markets elsewhere? You think economic aggression by the United States won't result in violence? Think again.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)And his votes regarding Vermont on guns his hardly an endorsement of "white terrorists operating along the border."
Sweet Jesus.
Z_California
(650 posts)It's so much more fun to play around with words than to have a nuanced discussion of issues when your candidate seems to be on the wrong side of the issues.
OkSustainAg
(203 posts)I'm a Democratic Socialist. I believe there should be Democracy in economics. People have rights as workers and should have say in the work place.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)dana_b
(11,546 posts)He proudly claims to be a Democratic Socialist. Happy now??
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)Bernie Sanders is a Democratic Socialist
Z_California
(650 posts)I think is to demonstrate how terrible the word "socialist" will play with voters.
I liken it to having the middle name "Hussein". It's just not a deal breaker once people understand the truth.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Blueguyinthesky
(54 posts)Many people think it is interchangeable with communist.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.
That's not what he believe in
Here's what he believes in:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
That's Bernie.
Socialism on the other hand is this:
"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."
Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.
Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)I replied. I kind of like Socialism, actually.
Libraries
Schools
Roads
Bridges
Health dept
FAA
State Troopers (they're always out there helping stranded drivers, aren't they?)
De-Icing trucks
FEMA
US Military
Socialism is sort of awesome.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)and Bernie isn't a socialist.
Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.
That's not what he believe in
Here's what he believes in:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
That's Bernie.
Socialism on the other hand is this:
"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."
Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.
Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)It's not
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I've admitted to being a socialist for forty five years now and that was before the cold war ended.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.
That's not what he believe in
Here's what he believes in:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
That's Bernie.
Socialism on the other hand is this:
"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."
Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.
Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Hey Bernie:
You know you're not a socialist, don't you? So stop saying that you are dude! You're just confusing people by red-baiting yourself.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)you're just trolling... he REPEATEDLY references Scandinavia which is NOT SOCIALIST.
Seriously man, trolling is not cool.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Socialism is about pooling your resources to provide what society needs like health care, pensions, fire protection, roads, police, etc. etc. Socialism allows for private industry to make things and conduct business. Also, people confuse both socialism and capitalism as being a system of government. They are not. They are economic systems that can work under various different kinds of governments from democratic ones to totalitarian dictatorships. Look at China. It's gone from a communistic economic system to a capitalistic one but still under the same oppressive dictatorship started seventy years ago.
not at all.
Misuse of the term
See also: Socialized medicine
Particularly in the United States, the term "socialization" has been mistakenly used to refer to any state or government-operated industry or service (the proper term for such being either nationalization or municipalization). It has also been used to mean any tax-funded programs, whether privately run or government run. The term "socialized" is usually used in a pejorative sense, most commonly in reference to publicly funded health care programs.[43]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership#Misuse_of_the_term
ALL forms of socialism have social ownership... that's pretty much the only thing thing all the different strains agree on.
Social ownership is NOT government ownership. And Bernie does NOT believe in social ownership.
I know that this new pro-Bernie definition of "socialism" has been spread around, to try and make sense of what Bernie is saying, but he's NOT a socialist, and NEVER can be, because he doesn't agree with it's central tenet, which he has clearly stated.
He believes in what they have in Scandinavia, which he has also repeatedly said, which is NOT socialism, but is instead the Nordic Model, Nordic Capitalism or ... Democratic Socialism.
There is NO social ownership in Scandinavia.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I believe mine is the correct one. Communism, also an economic system, there is no real individual ownership. The Kibbutz is an example of this. Everyone works for the collective and every that is made or produced belongs to everyone. In a nation the government takes over this task. Socialism is pooling resources according to ones ability to pay to pay for things we need to do as a society like education, health care and so on, but it doesn't take over manufacturing and other commerce. That is kept in the private sector. Capitalism says that the corporations, which are little or big kingdoms, do everything best, but profit is what the end result should be. If you can't keep up with the king and nobles then you fall by the wayside and fail. No body cares if you live or die because it's your fault for being lazy or some such thing like that.
You will find that different schools of economic and political thought will have different definitions to suit their purposes. Mine work for me.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)has social ownership, which is NOT what he's advocating for America.
There is a VERY CLEAR DISTINCTION between a government run program paid for with taxes and social ownership... they are not the same thing at all.
I understand you'd LIKE socialism to not include social ownership, but it does, in every economic or polisci textbook on the planet.
It's pretty much the core thing about socialism.
Sanders ABSOLUTELY believes in individual ownership of the means of production, not socialism.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I think I said that the means of production is individual ownership and that is socialist otherwise it's communism.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Here's what the Marxists say:
Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism.
There are two kinds of private property. There is property which is personal in nature, consumers goods, used for private enjoyment. Then there is the kind of private property which is not personal in nature, property in the means of production. This kind of property is not used for private enjoyment, but to produce the consumers goods which are.
Socialism does not mean taking away the first kind of private property, e.g. your suit of clothes; it does mean taking away the second kind of private property, e.g. your factory for making suits of clothes. It means taking away private property in the means of production from the few so that there will be much more private property in the means of consumption for the many. That part of the wealth which is produced by workers and taken from them in the form of profits would be theirs, under socialism, to buy more private property, more suits of clothes, more furniture, more food, more tickets to the movies.
http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm
Cleita
(75,480 posts)All are merely economic systems which can operate under any government system that accommodates them. In a democracy we need a balance between socialism and capitalism to make society function well. Right now our democracy is disintegrating because capitalists have taken over and are trying to run the government.
yodermon
(6,143 posts)the wiki pages.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)When Bernie gets the nomination of course. Wikipedia tries to explain it .. but in a Wikipedia way, by which they try to link it to Marxist-Leninism at it's introduction (wouldn't you know). Democratic Socialism, is what Bernie has always claimed to be. There is a huge difference between the Communist form of Socialism and Democratic Socialism. But if anyone in this country would educate themself, rather than looking at Beyonce's big ass, maybe we could get this country on the right path.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)wikipedia explains it just fine if you know where to look...
Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.
That's not what he believe in
Here's what he believes in - it's called the Nordic Model - or Democratic Socialism:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
That's Bernie.
Socialism on the other hand is this:
"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."
Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.
Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.
Mike Nelson
(9,966 posts)...many Americans outside of his Vermont constituency equate "Socialist" with "Communist". USSR-style, not European-style. Most nations are growing more Socialist, which is the system that seems to work best. Although he has explained it nicely, Sanders is wise to drop the term.
matt819
(10,749 posts)But the label doesn't matter. The pkYform does.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)at all
Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.
That's not what he believe in
Here's what he believes in:
"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
That's Bernie.
Socialism on the other hand is this:
"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."
Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.
Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.
matt819
(10,749 posts)You may be right. And if this were an academic arena that would be fine. But the raw voters aren't exactly thinkers. They're going to attach the label and the sanders campaign, when we get there, will have to address it in terms the low info voters can understand.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)DEMOCRATIC Socialist. Do you consider National Socialists to be "Socialist" by your definition?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Democratic socialist and socialist are not the same thing.
Why won't Hillary Clinton supporters admit she is one of the lizard people, sent to Earth to rule over us and seize our precious bodily fluids?
(Hint: The answer is the same - because she isn't)
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)And still consider myself a Democratic Socialist.
There are certain functions of society that we absolutely need to do collectively without any sort of profit motivation or privatization.
Legislation
The Military
Criminal prosecution and punishment
Education
Postal Service
Environmental protection.
Health Care
Social Security/Disability
No private prisons
No private schools
No defense contractors
No for profit health care facilities
No corporate courts
I believe all political campaigns should be exclusively publicly funded.
I believe the internet is the property of every one of us and should be utterly neutral.
Our society is all of us within the geographical boundaries of the United States at any given moment plus many others overseas. A very significant portion of our society are empowered to band together and decide through voting the overall course we shall tread. We select an "action arm" to do our bidding; to handle the day to day functions and formally document our goals and rules. That is socialism.
We are now and always have been a socialistic country.
The reason our foundation documents do have the word socialism in them is they predate the socialistic movement by some 30/40 years.
The people who formulated socialism had only one country to observe in action that had transitioned to collective self rule without a bloodbath: Us, the United States.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/life-satisfaction/
Life Satisfaction
Background
Measuring feelings can be very subjective, but is nonetheless a useful complement to more objective data when comparing quality of life across countries. Subjective data can provide a personal evaluation of an individuals health, education, income, personal fulfilment and social conditions. Surveys, in particular, are used to measure life satisfaction and happiness.
Life satisfaction
Life satisfaction measures how people evaluate their life as a whole rather than their current feelings. When asked to rate their general satisfaction with life on a scale from 0 to 10, people across the OECD gave it a 6.6 grade. Life satisfaction is not evenly shared across the OECD however. Some countries Estonia, Greece, Hungary, Portugal and Turkey have a relatively low level of overall life satisfaction, with average scores of less than 5.6. At the other end of the scale, scores reach 7.5 in Denmark, Iceland and Switzerland. There is almost no difference in life satisfaction levels between men and women across OECD countries. However, when looking at peoples education level, there is a clear difference: whereas people who have only completed primary education across OECD countries have a life satisfaction level of 5.9, this score reaches 7 for people with tertiary education....
Details by country...
World's Happiest Countries? Social Democracies
by
Craig Brown
A new report released by the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD) shows that happiness levels are highest in northern European countries.
Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands rated at the top of the list, ranking first, second and third, respectively.
The US? As expected, the United States failed to make the top 10 but ranked among the highest for obesity and child poverty. Americans spend less than half the amount of time eating as the French, but have three times the obesity rate. This tells us something about slow food, I think, Simon Chappele, editor of the report said in an interview with NPR.
The report also showed the United States has the lowest mean age for women when they first gave birth, at 25.1 years old.
http://www.commondreams.org/further/2009/05/11/worlds-happiest-countries-social-democracies
06/05/2015
Denmarks residents are the most satisfied with their lives, according to the Better Life Index released Monday. According to the study, published annually by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), the United States failed to crack the top 10 for the fifth consecutive year.
The Better Life Index rates the 34 OECD member nations, as well as Brazil and the Russian Federation, on 22 variables that contribute to overall well-being, including income, education, housing, health, and life satisfaction. 24/7 Wall St. reviewed the 10 countries with the highest life satisfaction score.
A healthy job market is one of the most important factors contributing to higher life evaluations. Employment rates the percentage of the working-age population that is employed were higher in each of the 10 countries with the highest life satisfaction score than the average employment rate for the countries reviewed.
Conversely, countries with relatively unhealthy job markets had lower life satisfaction scores. Unemployment rates were above 8.5% in seven of the 10 least happy countries, while they were lower than 7% in all but two of the happiest countries.
Healthy labor markets not only help promote job security, but also they can ...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/05/these-are-the-happiest-co_n_7521674.html
http://www.forbes.com/best-countries-for-business/list/#tab verall
Rank Name GDP Growth GDP per Capita Trade Balance/GDP Population
#1 Denmark 1.1% $44,600 6.3% 5.6 M
#2 New Zealand 3.3% $35,300 -3.2% 4.4 M
#3 Norway 2.2% $67,200 9.4% 5.2 M
#4 Ireland 5.2% $51,300 3.7% 4.9 M
#5 Sweden 2.3% $46,200 6.2% 9.8 M
#6 Finland -0.4% $40,700 -1.8% 5.5 M
#7 Canada 2.4% $45,000 -2.1% 35.1 M
#8 Singapore 2.9% $83,100 19.1% 5.7 M
#9 Netherlands 1% $48,000 10.4% 16.9 M
#10 United Kingdom 3% $39,800 -5.9% 64.1 M
#11 Hong Kong 2.5% $55,100 1.9% 7.1 M
#12 Switzerland 1.9% $58,100 7.2% 8.1 M
#13 Iceland 1.8% $44,000 3.6% 0.3 M
#14 Australia 2.7% $46,600 -3% 22.8 M
#15 Belgium 1.1% $43,100 1.6% 11.3 M
#16 Portugal 0.9% $27,100 0.6% 10.8 M
#17 Lithuania 3% $27,300 0.1% 2.9 M
#18 Germany 1.6% $46,200 7.4% 80.9 M
#19 Estonia 2.9% $27,900 0.1% 1.3 M
#20 Slovenia 3% $29,900 6.9% 2 M
#21 Taiwan 3.8% $46,000 12.4% 23.4 M
#22 United States 2.4% $54,400 -2.2% 321.4 M
#23 Japan -0.1% $37,500 0.5% 126.9 M
A crash course in social democracy.
By Ann JonesJANUARY 28, 2016
http://www.thenation.com/article/after-i-lived-in-norway-america-felt-backward-heres-why/
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)At least judging from your numerous OPs where you try to stick something on Sanders.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)And debating the meaning of a loosely defined label is a fool's errand. The ideas matter and not the label.
no_hypocrisy
(46,160 posts)Bernie is a democratic socialist.
Two different but related political philosophies.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Sen Sanders does not meet it. From wikipedia: "Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production;"
Sen Sanders has never expressed a desire for "social ownership and democratic control of the means of production."
Sen Sanders believes in the social ownership and democratic control of police, fire and road departments, Social Security and Medicare, prisons, etc. All the things that Clinton doesn't believe in. Clinton believes in the privatization of most of the things I've listed which is at best corporatist or at worst fascist.