Hillary: "I'm not going to cut SS." Bernie fans: "Hillary is going to cut SS".

[DanTex]

[dsc]

1. because lies and smears is all they have at this point

[Squinch]

2. Exactly. It's surreal now.

[cali]

3. Nope. Not what is being claimed

[DanTex]

4. Evidently Hillary didn't use enough all-caps and exclamation points to satisfy the Bernie following.

[Live and Learn]

5. I guess it comes down to who you should believe.

Last edited Sat Feb 6, 2016, 06:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Honesty factors:

Bernie - 99.99%
Hillary - .25%

If you really want to complicate things, add in the flip flops:

Bernie - 0
Hillary - irregular depending on the who is asking and why.

You do the math since we know how good you are at doing tax returns!

[gwheezie]

8. I think Bernie is a liar

I don't trust the guy.

[Live and Learn]

16. And you base that on what, exactly?

Funny most Americans find him quite authentic and honest which is a big distinction between him and Hillary. I am in the camp with the majority.

[MrMickeysMom]

26. Answer: HATE

Nice comment, eh?

[Live and Learn]

29. Ain't that the truth? nt

[gwheezie]

150. OK so maybe he's authentic 1% of the time

Or it could be 5%. I'm just guessing on the percentage of authenticity it could be .25% or if I didn't do the decimal right, it might be 25% but I'm declaring there is a percentage of lying going on, or something.

[metroins]

19. Bernie is flipping on gun rights

I don't really care about that subject, but he is changing his views.

He's allowed to, it's a good thing for politicians to evolve.

[AgingAmerican]

27. No he isn't

His position and her position have been the same for over a decade.

[DanTex]

35. Except on the whole immunity thing. He changed his mind on that a month ago.

And on background checks. Voted against them in the Brady Bill, now apparently in favor.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

98. Bullshit.

True or false: Bernie is on record saying he voted for immunity for gun dealers, not gun manufacturers, because BOTH were included in the same bill. True or false? I predict you won't give me a straight answer.

[DanTex]

100. I've heard a few bizarre explanations from him, I don't recall that specific one,

but it wouldn't surprise me. The thing is, whatever excuse he wants to give, at the end of the day he voted for a horrible bill that gave broad immunity to the gun industry, and was the NRA's top legislative priority.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

102. Are you OK with a mom and pop gun shop

being put out of business without doing anything wrong? I'm not. Like Bernie, I don't want gun manufacturers to escape liability for selling guns that get into the wrong hands. So let's craft a damn bill that does that without targeting small businesses. It's not hard, let's do it.

[DanTex]

105. If they didn't do anything wrong, then no. If they did something wrong, then yes.

Fortunately, we have a court system to determine whether a corporation did something wrong or not. Unfortunately, thanks to Bernie and the GOP, the gun industry doesn't have to play by the same rules as everyone else in that court system.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

109. The bill Bernie voted against exposed small businesses

regardless of wrong doing. That is precisely why he voted against it. Can you comprehend my words?!?!

[DanTex]

114. Well, yes, the gun industry was "exposed" to the same tort laws that every other industry

was exposed to at the time. But now they have a special immunity.

If he had advocated for an across-the board immunity, so manufacturers and dealers of other products would also get the same sweet deal, that would have at least been consistent. But what he voted for was a naked and corrupt giveaway to an industry with a strong lobbying arm.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

119. What's the source for your claim?

Here's my source:

A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/s397

Conventional tort law allows people to sue manufacturers for negligence, e.g. defective manufacture or design. Misuse of products by consumers is typically not a basis for suing a manufacturer or dealer. I'm OK with expanding liability beyond traditional tort law for manufacturers, but not dealers.

[DanTex]

123. My source is right there. The bill only applies to the gun industry.

Under standard tort law, criminal misuse is not automatic cause to dismiss a case. And even if you didn't know that, you could have figured it out easily, because if it was, then there wouldn't have been any need for this new bill that the NRA was pushing so hard for. What you are trying to argue is that the NRA fought hard for a bill that changed absolutely nothing.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

148. So if I run over somebody

with a lawnmower, the manufacturer can be sued? Can you provide examples, under standard tort law, where a manufacturer is liable for criminal misuse of a product?

[Duckhunter935]

32. no he is not

If you care to actually read his positions like I have. I do not get swindled by a 30 second sound bite.

[2pooped2pop]

33. I think Bernie's problem with that bill was in the way it was written

He did not feel that the small time gunship should be held responsible when they followed all of the rules on the sale and that gun was later used to commit a crime. He said he would be glad to take another look at it and would vote otherwise if it was written in a clearer manner.

Not exactly a flip flop. No weathervaning involved.

[MrMickeysMom]

40. That's not true, either...

Had anyone listened to the way the gun law was "negotiated" when he voted against it, which is the thing you now say he "flipped", you may know (if you did your homework) that the no vote was in response to this logic:

Gun manufacture sells legally to retailer...
Retailer sells legally to purchaser...
Purchaser sells illegally to someone who purchases and then shoots someone..

Therefore, the wrongful suite should trail back to the manufacturer... That is wrong. The failed negotiation, had the law been right would have not included suing the manufacturer, who complied with the law..

Meanwhile, with all the other gaps in the law that allowed these assholes to walk through those loopholes, Sanders wants to close those loopholes and evolve on this nation wide atrocity. This includes, by the way, the components in mental health through the single payer health care laws that should be in place.

One has to read and pay attention to say, "he's changing views". Not allowing you to get away with that "drive by comment", because it is not true.

[metroins]

46. Yet....he still voted the way he did

And defended it.

Again, I'm not knocking Bernie, I don't care about this issue. I just know he changed stances.

[MrMickeysMom]

50. Yet, you don't know why...

How wise is it to give an opinion without doing your homework on why you give your opinion.

Yes... this is the reason he voted the way he did. I hope you do more research when than that.

[metroins]

84. On I know why

And he has since changed his stance.

It's not a bad thing to evolve.

Just like he was an independent and now a Democrat.

[mythology]

124. Because those numbers are in any way grounded?

Off hand Sanders flipped on same sex marriage, he's seemed to flip on guns, he's running as a Democrat after saying it would be hypocritical to do so. All of those are positive changes, but they are still changes.

[Live and Learn]

154. Wrong. It is Hillary that flipped several times on gay marriage. Bernie NEVER did. nt

[NorthCarolina]

6. I recall some folks here on DU

insisting that Chained CPI was NOT a cut to Social Security, back when Obama was putting that on the table. I would venture to guess that those folks, if still around here on DU, are likely Hillary supporters now.

[DanTex]

9. That's a charmingly irrelevant hypothesis. Thanks for sharing.

[AgingAmerican]

28. It is totally relevent

And most likely where she would look first for cuts. "Pragmatic" is code for 'willing to cut SS'. She will try to obfuscate the cuts in the form of chained CPI or raising the retirement age.

[DanTex]

30. So when do you think she would start eating kittens? About a year in to the first term maybe?

[AgingAmerican]

34. She will start messing with chained CPI and raising the retirement age.

Stop trying to change the subject.

[DanTex]

37. And you know this because...

[AgingAmerican]

42. And you don't want to talk about it because.....??

[DanTex]

53. Because I don't have much faith in your crystal ball.

[MrMickeysMom]

44. It's totally relevant...

You're welcomed.

[treestar]

36. Taking a different way of calculating cost of living raises

as a "cut" is just showing a clear desire to find something to use to twist to make it seem like someone wants it cut.

[NorthCarolina]

41. So then, you believe the object of Chained CPI is to increase

Social Security benefits to recipients?

Please, by all means explain how Chained CPI is NOT a cut to benefits.

[treestar]

108. It's a method for calculating cost of living increase

[NorthCarolina]

112. With the goal of maximizing COLA benefit to the recipient, or of cutting costs by

reducing the cost of COLA to the system?

If you had to guess which of the two goals for such a program is the correct one, which would you pick?

[AgingAmerican]

43. So your saying it depends on what the definition of 'cut' is?

[treestar]

111. Cut should mean an actual decrease

in the amounts - not cost of living increases that are somehow deemed not enough.

However the cost of living increase is calculated could be subject to debate, but in the end it is about an increase (and it's odd how people seem to be upset when then is no increase in benefits because there was no increase in the cost of living).

One could argue that other methods are better, but when one instead calls it a "cut" - that's trying to make the issue something other than it is. And for no real reason, since the law provides the benefits increase when the cost of living does, to account for that. Nothing else had changed.

Cut should be reserved for a proposal that actually cuts the benefits. Calculates the benefits themselves on a lower percentage of income.

[NurseJackie]

7. Disgusting. Contemptible. Makes me sick.

But it will make Hillary's victory all the sweeter.

Bernie will not be the nominee.

[SMC22307]

17. No Pepto in Hillary's Thx Box?

Pity.

[Motown_Johnny]

10. Also. Marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman

If she can flip on something she held as sacred, why should we believe she will not flip on anything and everything when it benefits her politically to do so?

[Go Vols]

70. +1

[Broward]

11. Yesterday, her campaign said "she has no plans to cut benefits."

Not the same thing as will not cut. She refuses to take cuts off the table.

[DanTex]

12. She also said "I like ice cream."

[SMC22307]

21. Who doesn't like ice cream? She still can't be trusted on Social Security.

As "has no plans" indicates (along with her long history of sucking up to greedy Wall Street vultures). Does Camp Weathervane really not know how to read between the lines?

[AgingAmerican]

47. And she said the TPP is the gold standard of trade deals

[DanTex]

51. She said she hoped it would be. TPP didn't exist yet when she said that. Details...

[AgingAmerican]

56. Dishonest bullshit, that was her paraphrasing herself years later

EXACT QUOTE:

"So it's fair to say that our economies are entwined, and we need to keep upping our game both bilaterally and with partners across the region through agreements like the Trans-Pacific Partnership or TPP. Australia is a critical partner. This TPP sets the gold standard in trade agreements to open free, transparent, fair trade, the kind of environment that has the rule of law and a level playing field. And when negotiated, this agreement will cover 40 percent of the world's total trade and build in strong protections for workers and the environment."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/13/hillary-clinton/what-hillary-clinton-really-said-about-tpp-and-gol/

[DanTex]

60. Yes, but that TPP was not the same as the TPP that emerged from the final negotiation.

Everyone knows this, it's a simple chronological fact. The lengths of self-delusion that Hillary haters go to sometimes surprises even cynical me.

[AgingAmerican]

61. The lengths exact quotes go to!

How dare I quote her verbatim! Think of the children!

[DanTex]

62. Playing dumb, huh? Well, whatever you need to do. Unfortunately, outside the Bernie bubble, people

understand that that quote was made well before the TPP was finalized.

[AgingAmerican]

71. Projecting, huh? It depends on what the meaning of "Exact quote" is...

[DanTex]

74. So you won't answer. LOL. Let's try one more time.

Are you aware that that quote was made before the final version of the TPP was released?

You can answer, or you can duck. My money's on ducking, but we'll find out.

[AgingAmerican]

96. You are spinning

She only changed direction once it became obvious TPP had turned into a landmine.

[DanTex]

104. So I was right. You didn't answer the question.

It's been fun, but if you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that the quote was made long before the true final version of TPP was released, I don't see much point in continuing.

[SMC22307]

101. "exciting" "innovative" "ambitious" "groundbreaking" "cutting-edge" "high-quality" "high-standard"

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/13/hillary-clinton/what-hillary-clinton-really-said-about-tpp-and-gol/

There must have been some pretty MASSIVE changes from draft to final. Or else Campaign Hillary is just saying whatever is politically expedient... not enough good-paying jobs for Middle America! Is that her (supposed) biggest beef with the deal?

[DanTex]

107. Yes, that was the objective. It didn't live up to it. The negotiating process for something like

TPP is long and complicated, so it's not particularly surprising that changes were made.

[SMC22307]

133. Claims Campaign Hillary, as a matter of political expedience.

Ruler Hillary will do bupkis for Middle America. Which brings us back to the OP... Social Security. Trust her at your peril, unless you're one of the lucky ones not reliant on Social Security. Too many Americans are, especially AAs.

[DanTex]

135. There are facts and opinions. You have every right to guess at her motives,

but it is simply inaccurate to pretend that the favorable statements she made while the TPP was under development referred to the actual treaty that came out of the negotiations, which she opposed.

To be honest, I don't really care much about this, because I'm basically neutral about TPP, so if she had been in favor it wouldn't have bothered me, but facts are facts.

[Persondem]

93. Well now that the full text of the TPP is available why don't you point out via quotes

EXACTLY what sections are problematic? You know, back up your talking point with some actual facts.

[AgingAmerican]

95. Read the subthread

Exact quotes are provided.

[Persondem]

99. No, my request was for exact quotes from the TPP text showing why it is bad.

The text has been available for months now and you'd think if it were such a stinker as the uber left made it out to be that there would be quotes galore available to show how bad it really turned out.

You are just rehashing a BS meme from the uber left echo chamber that has zero basis in fact. I have read a good chunk of the actual document; you are welcome to do the same, then judge.

[SMC22307]

13. Slap your forehead all you want, I don't trust Hillary on this issue.

Cuts, raised retirement age... however Camp Weathervane wants to frame it.

[DanTex]

18. Fair enough. I'm sure some people don't trust her not to eat kittens either.

Of Bernie for that matter. Not everyone is interested in facts.

[SMC22307]

22. Oh, that we know. "Saddam has WMDs" is a biggie.

And someone (Bernie) was interested in the facts, unlike someone else (Hillary).

I'm interested in facts, as is most of DU. It's why bullshit posts are pounced on with such zeal.

[DanTex]

23. My favorite is "we need to protect the gun industry."

[SMC22307]

24. Fact: Sanders' D-minus NRA rating. (n/t)

[DanTex]

25. And yet he voted for their most important legislative priority, which was to protect the industry

from lawsuits.

Still, it's funny how much Bernie fans trust the integrity of the NRA's ratings.

[Duckhunter935]

39. with six major exceptions

To that protection from SLAAP suits. They can and are sued. Badger guns just lost a lawsuit.

[DanTex]

45. So brave of him to stand up for the poor gun corporations. I look forward to him blessing other

industries with the same kind of largesse. A very generous man, that Bernie Sanders.

[Duckhunter935]

48. and I do not agree

With him on banning weapons for cosmetic features or banning standard size magazines. You will be disappointed when Annie Oakley shows back up when she needs those votes.

[DanTex]

49. I've been to the gungeon. I know the NRA talking points.

[Duckhunter935]

57. yes we know

Anything you disagree is an NRA talking point. The funny thing is nobody has been able to post a list like we produced from the gun cilantro groups. Hillary will drop the anti gun message if she makes it to the general.

[DanTex]

64. True, I disagree with most NRA talking points. Because they are idiotic right-wing drivel. YMMV.

[Duckhunter935]

79. too bad

As many of of firearms owners actually want things that will actually work and are just not feel good measures that will do nothing. But everything we suggest or say is automatically dismissed as an NRA talking point. That helps a lot with the discussion.

[DanTex]

81. It is too bad. 30,000 gun deaths per year, far more than any other wealthy nation, and thanks

to people like Bernie, the GOP, and the NRA, this is going to continue for the forseeable future. Pop the champagne!

[Duckhunter935]

88. too bad 2/3

Of those are suicides that AWB and background checks fights will not fix. But we mention better mental heath care or single payer and it is an NRA talking point or no we can't. Just your response shows how you do not know the real facts.

[DanTex]

89. Yes, the suicides are too bad, and the homicides are too bad, and the accidents are too bad.

It's all too bad. Every other wealthy country has figured out this problem except for the US, thanks to the gun lobby and people in congress who give them their votes.

[Duckhunter935]

90. so what are your big plans

Since we have a 2nd amendment that owning a firearm is a limited right under the constitution. What will Hillary do to prevent those deaths. The AWB will not as it is a ban on cosmetic features and the Newtown weapon was AWB compliant. Better background checks are good and both candidates are for that. Magazine limits, both are for but magazines do not get used up and there are hundreds of millions out there. So just what will Hillary do?

[DanTex]

91. Well, we need to get some more liberal justices to overturn those preposterous 5-4 right-wing

decisions regarding the second amendment. What we really need is a national registry for handguns and semi-automatic rifles, basically regulate handguns and semi-autos under NFA.

I'm fully aware that this is just as unlikely to happen as single payer or free college, but that's what we need.

[Duckhunter935]

94. talking about pie in the sky

Seems to be the same thing you accuse Bernie about for single payer. I also found not think that would help with criminal use of guns or suicides. Remember suicides are 2/3 of firearms deaths. I think mental health care as a right would save more lives and could actually be passed., but that's right it is just an NRA talking point.

[DanTex]

97. As I said, I agree. It's just as pie in the sky as single payer or free college. I'm a realist

when it comes to the prospects for sane gun policy in this country and it's not going to happen anytime soon. Maybe if the millenial generation remains as liberal as they are now, in a decade or two we might have a chance.

As for suicides, there is a lot of research showing that gun availability is a significant contributing factor.

I do agree that mental health care is important.

[Duckhunter935]

120. I am for free COMMUNITY

College for qualified people, the rich idiots like Trump and Bush can still pay for Yale and Harvard. Many other countries seem to do that and some states also were able to do it in the past. Free K-12 should be brought into the 21st century to include some level of higher education or trade school.

[SMC22307]

52. "Funny" because Sanders' D- ranking doesn't help Camp Weathervane. (n/t)

[DanTex]

65. Well, if you trust the NRA, then Bernie is definitely the candidate for you. On that we agree.

[SMC22307]

118. Didn't O'Malley say he wears his NRA "F" rating as a badge of honor?

Teabagger Ted Cruz gets an "A+".

Where do you disagree with those rankings?

[DanTex]

121. The NRA calls anyone who doesn't favor AK-47s for 12-year-olds a gun grabber.

They scored the vote to Eric Holder in contempt as part of their rankings -- the organization is becoming nakedly partisan. O'Malley has a strong record on guns, not because the NRA gave him an F, but based on his actual record as well as his platform.

Bernie's votes are there for everyone to see. He voted against Brady, and in favor of immunity. The fact that he doesn't support crazy right-wing stuff like holding Holder in contempt doesn't change that.

[SMC22307]

143. Vermont has one of the lowest homicide rates in the nation...

or is it *the* lowest rates? Lots of hunters and lots of guns. As a new member of the House of Representatives, Bernie was representing his constituents. Since then, he's been praised by the Brady Campaign (not an NRA lapdog, or something to that effect).

Yes, Bernie's votes are there for everyone to see:

1994 - Voted to ban semi-automatic assault weapons

1996 - Voted against repealing the semi-automatic weapons ban

1998 - Voted to increase minimum sentencing for gun crimes

1999 - Voted to impose 3-day waiting period for gun show gun purchases

2006 - Voted against an amendment which would have prohibited funding of trigger lock enforcement

2009 - Voted against allowing concealed and carry across state lines

2013 - Again voted against allowing concealed and carry across state lines

2013 - Voted to list those prohibited from buying a firearm in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System

2013 - Voted to ban high-capacity ammunition magazines carrying more than 10 rounds

2013 - Again voted to ban assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines

None of that screams gun-humper, no matter how hard Camp Weathervane tries to portray him as such.

[DanTex]

144. Which is great. Bernie's politics fit well with Vermont, but not so much for the whole nation.

[SMC22307]

145. The votes I listed fit well with the whole nation.

He's ticked off gun-humpers and gun-grabbers, which to me shows courage. The "extremist" label many are trying to pin on him just doesn't follow...

[DanTex]

147. "Gun-grabbers", huh. Sorry, I don't see any courage in voting to give the gun industry immunity,

or to vote against the most significant gun control legislation in decades -- the Brady bill. Particularly not in a nation that loses 30,000 lives to guns every year.

He likes to talk about how we are the only advanced nation without universal healthcare. I wonder why he doesn't talk about how we are the only advanced nation with anywhere near this level of gun violence, the only nation where handguns aren't registered, the only nation where you can walk to a gun store and walk out with 10 AR-15s a half hour later.

He likes to talk about the senseless waste of American lives fighting in Iraq. I wonder why he doesn't mention that the gun toll right here at home in a single year exceeds the total number of Americans lost in Iraq and Afghanistan in all the years since 2001 combined?

[SMC22307]

149. He does talk about gun violence, and has called (again) for a ban of assault weapons.

Why aren't you listening?

"Instead of people yelling at each other..."

[Jenny_92808]

54. Bernie's vote on that was

If a shop sells a gun legally, they should not be held responsible (if sued) if that gun falls into the wrong hands. Bernie said, he could rethink that vote and go the other way. Bernie has a D minus grade from the NRA. I am feeling very disappointed with the Hillary deceptions. It appears to me that Hillary is taking a page out of the right-wing play book on how to smear your opponent with lies. Anything to win mentality, I guess.

[DanTex]

58. It was exactly what the NRA wanted, and what gun control activists and Dems were opposed to.

A blatant giveaway to the gun industry, protecting them from lawsuits that were succeeding and had a real chance of holding the industry accountable for practices that they knew were resulting in more gun deaths.

Gun companies shouldn't have any special privileges, they should play by the same rules as everyone else. And if it hadn't been for the fact that their hero voted for this, Bernie fans wouldn't be here spouting absurd NRA talking points.

Bernie talks like he wants to put people ahead of corporations, but when the chips were down, he put the gun industry first.

[Duckhunter935]

59. maybe Bernie needs to almost cry

But we know any criticism of Hillary is sexist. Like men are not able to cry too.

[stonecutter357]

14. K&R!

[MoonRiver]

15. Liar, liar pants on fire!

Shows how few real arguments they have, when they resort to lies.

[Enrique]

20. maybe they don't believe her

when someone thinks a politician may not be revealing their true intentions, that's not something to smack your head over. Skepticism is a good thing.

My own view is that I fear that Hillary will cut SS. I have to say, I feared that about Obama, it didn't come to pass.

[treestar]

31. I have to wonder what's the point of the blatant misrepresentation

Bernie doesn't have supporters so much as people who use him to diss Hillary. Far more Anti-Hillary than pro-Bernie.

[Jenny_92808]

67. (off topic, a little) I see you are a bigot, etc.

You do know that your avatar is a disrespectful picture that was photoshop-darkened to disrespect our president (to appeal to bigots).

(back on topic) The Hillary team is being deceptive and it turns me off big time. What you are saying is blatantly false.

[treestar]

106. I think you mean sig line

No I did not know that but I didn't notice. I just like the meme. It's funny. Geez what a twisted mind you have. I am one of the President's biggest supporters. I do not bend to that type of bullying.

The misrepresentation was made by Bernie supporters, who are really not supporting Bernie or helping him much. They are just anti-Hillary.

[Squinch]

110. I like the photo. To me, darker does not mean less respectable.

[Andy823]

73. I agree

The sad thing is they, the anti Hillary bunch, have invaded DU, and joined up with our old time "anti Obama" bunch who also became the local anti Hillary bunch. In reality they seem to only want to destroy Hillary, not promote Bernie. The "real" Bernie supporters have been pushed aside and the shit stirrers have taken over. As for all the lies, well as long as you can get people to believe those lies and not actually check them out, you can lie all you want. It seems like in the long run it's all about making sure a Democrat is not elected to the WH.

[Vattel]

38. Well, to be fair, she is a liar.

[BillZBubb]

55. Hillary would be open to changing Social Security in a deal with repugs.

She has said as much. She'd sell it as keeping the system solvent for another 50 years. It wouldn't be a direct cut, but she would be willing to at a minimum raise the retirement age if she got something in return from the repugs. After all, she's "pragmatic".

She's not going to directly cut benefits. That won't happen.

[Jenny_92808]

76. I agree with your reasoning

That is how it appears to me, as well.

[pokhum]

63. lies lies everwhere

[Kalidurga]

66. If she isn't going to cut benefits what's the big deal?

Surely there are quotes or something that shows she is saying she will absolutely not do anything that results in lower benefits for retirees and that she absolutely will not raise the retirement age.

[DanTex]

69. Of course there are. Bernie fans just ignore them.

Fight any attempts to gamble seniors’ retirement security on the stock market through privatization.
Oppose reducing annual cost-of-living adjustments.
Oppose Republican efforts to raise the retirement age—an unfair idea that will particularly hurt the seniors who have worked the hardest throughout their lives.
Oppose closing the long-term shortfall on the backs of the middle class, whether through benefit cuts or tax increases.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/social-security-and-medicare/

[mcar]

68. Recycled memes

They come around every few months. It's gotten kind of sad,'really.

[Gothmog]

72. Agreed

[Ferd Berfel]

75. It will depend on what your deffinition of the word IS, IS

She seems to be refusing to rule out raising the retirement age. To me this is a cut.

She wants to continue OBama's legacy - He doesn't think ham-stringing SS with Chain CPI is a cut. But it IS a cut.

I simply do not trust her with Social Security or Medicare....among many other things. She is a creature of Wall Street and that is her base.

[DanTex]

77. Wrong. She's ruled out raising the retirement age. And also reducing cost of living adjustments.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/social-security-and-medicare/

[Ferd Berfel]

82. Triangulation?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511156107

[DanTex]

83. Whatever helps you ignore the facts.

[Ferd Berfel]

125. From her website

Demand lower prices for prescription drugs for seniors receiving Medicare.
"Demand" ... i.e. beg in harsh tones? And what about the rest of the country that pays 5 times what the rest of the world pays? How about forcing the greedy bastards into submission? They sure as HELL won't do it out of their kindness.


Expand Social Security benefits for widows and those who took time out of the paid workforce to care for a child or sick family member.
expanding for widows and sick leave is fine but WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF US?

It depends on what your definition of the word IS, is.

[DanTex]

126. Moving goalposts. You, two posts ago:

She seems to be refusing to rule out raising the retirement age. To me this is a cut.

She wants to continue OBama's legacy - He doesn't think ham-stringing SS with Chain CPI is a cut. But it IS a cut.

Wrong on both counts.

[Jenny_92808]

78. I think you got that right

However, I will vote for her if she wins because the alternative would be a nightmare.

[Duckhunter935]

80. Bernie would be a nightmare?

[Ferd Berfel]

113. Only to Wall Street and the 1%

he will be a godsend to the rest of us.

[Ferd Berfel]

87. Revolutions

always exact a toll in pain and suffering - at least. Even Political Revolutions are never 'free'.

The DNC and 'Democratic Party' elite have used the 'we're not quite as terrible as they are', 'lesser of two evils' strategy for decades while furthering the Corporatist Agenda. I'm sick of it.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

85. She will have to write in stone that she will never never cut social security

she is known to cave under pressure

[DanTex]

86. Does it have to be stone? If she wrote it in all-caps, would that be good enough?

[Duckhunter935]

92. nope

She should just say she would remove the income caps like Bernie. I still would not trust her to keep her word. She would probably just say she would think about it to leave her an out without committing.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

103. Here is the problem with all this. We should be ALL discussing how to RAISE benefits.

Once again, we have been framed into a discussion about the wrong issue.

Like voting, where you discuss which ID to be required, when in reality any ID is a constitutional violation.

Social Security benefits must be increased, and the way you do this is lift the cap and that isnt enough, you raise the amount paid as in percentage by rich people.

Insurance isnt fair, if it was you would all be getting big refund checks for your car, auto, home and life insurance policies where you paid in way more than you ever got back.

[Vote2016]

115. Ironically, if Hillary actually did say "I'm not going to cut SS" there would be no issue. It's not

a "Sanders fans" issue; it's a Clinton equivocates a lot and flip-flops a lot and bipartisan/nonpartisan Social Security advocates do not trust her equivocation on this important issue:

Nancy Altman, a co-founder of Social Security Works who has 35 years of experience in the field, said that Clinton campaign's statement and the policy descriptions on her website, do not definitively promise not to cut the program.

"What Secretary Clinton has said about Social Security is completely consistent with the Bowles-Simpson plan," Altman said, referring to a Fiscal Commission proposal in 2010 that would have made major cuts to middle-class benefits, even as it marginally lifted those of poor beneficiaries. "From the very beginning, there have been those who have wanted to boost benefits at the low end and cut middle-class benefits -- pushing it in the direction of becoming a kind of welfare program. It is very important that the candidates not only expand benefits but promise not to cut them. Otherwise there could be cuts that undermine what the program is: insurance, where you get a fair benefit for the money paid."
...
The Progressive Campaign Change Committee, a digital advocacy group that claims one million members and has yet to endorse a candidate in the presidential race, was more indignant with the Clinton campaign's statement about its stance on Social Security.

"George W. Bush had no plan to invade Iraq," said Stephanie Taylor, a co-founder of the group, referring to the Clinton campaign's assurance that she had no "plans" to cut benefits. "It is an absolute must for a Democratic nominee who claims to be progressive to say clearly and unequivocally that they will never cut Social Security benefits. Bernie Sanders has made that commitment. Hillary Clinton should make that commitment before the New Hampshire primary so Democrats can focus on expanding benefits."

The PCCC claimed that Donald Trump, the Republican presidential frontrunner, has taken a firmer stance against cutting Social Security than Clinton had.

[DanTex]

116. Good. Then there's no issue.

Fight any attempts to gamble seniors’ retirement security on the stock market through privatization.
Oppose reducing annual cost-of-living adjustments.
Oppose Republican efforts to raise the retirement age—an unfair idea that will particularly hurt the seniors who have worked the hardest throughout their lives.
Oppose closing the long-term shortfall on the backs of the middle class, whether through benefit cuts or tax increases.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/social-security-and-medicare/

[Vote2016]

122. I'm not sure if the Kool Aid has kicked in yet, but you may notice your OP has a clear statement and

your support for that argument is not a clear statement.

Maybe that would not be an issue except the whole dispute is about the absence of a clear statement.

When Social Security advocates (who are neither Sanders himself nor limited to Sanders supporters, BTW) ask Clinton to please just say "I won't cut Social Security," you cannot claim she complied with that request with a bunch of equivocation. They are asking for clarity. Her utter failure to comply while pretending that her equivocation should stand in place of the clarity is why voters don't trust Clinton.

This issue is emblematic of why she is losing in head-to-head contests with Republican candidates.

[HassleCat]

117. Good

Now both candidates need to come out and state, without equivocation, that they would veto any bill that (1) raises the retirement age or (2) fails to lift the income cap.

[aikoaiko]

127. Do you have links for those quotes?

Hillary: "I'm not going to cut SS."

Bernie fans: "Hillary is going to cut SS"

[asuhornets]

128. Amazing isn't it?

[last1standing]

129. I've read through this thread and have found no proof NoHope Hillary ever promised not to cut SS.

Either you have decided that we don't deserve to see the quote or your OP is a lie.

Which is it?

[DanTex]

131. Here you are.

Fight any attempts to gamble seniors’ retirement security on the stock market through privatization.
Oppose reducing annual cost-of-living adjustments.
Oppose Republican efforts to raise the retirement age—an unfair idea that will particularly hurt the seniors who have worked the hardest throughout their lives.
Oppose closing the long-term shortfall on the backs of the middle class, whether through benefit cuts or tax increases.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/social-security-and-medicare/

[last1standing]

134. Nowhere in that blurb does NoHope Hillary promise not to cut SS.

It merely states she 'opposes' "gamling," "Republican efforts," and "closing the long-term shortfall on the backs of the middle class."

The closest she comes is stating that she will "Oppose closing the long-term shortfall on the backs of the middle class, whether through benefit cuts or tax increases." That does not state that she will not cut benefits, only that she won't do so "on the backs of the middle-class."

Weasel words are what corrupt politicians like NoHope Hillary use as their bread and butter. There's always a qualifier there so they can slip out of it later.

[DanTex]

136. She says she's "opposed" to cuts in SS. I guess you would have preferred another term.

[last1standing]

137. That is not what she said, as I've already pointed out. Please don't post lies.

n/t

[notadmblnd]

130. Raising retirement age, denying cost of living raises

is in reality cutting social security.

Correct me if I am wrong, but HRC won't say that she won't do either of these things.

[DanTex]

132. Hillary agrees with you.

Fight any attempts to gamble seniors’ retirement security on the stock market through privatization.
Oppose reducing annual cost-of-living adjustments.
Oppose Republican efforts to raise the retirement age—an unfair idea that will particularly hurt the seniors who have worked the hardest throughout their lives.
Oppose closing the long-term shortfall on the backs of the middle class, whether through benefit cuts or tax increases.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/social-security-and-medicare/

[notadmblnd]

138. Somebody is lying:Huff Post: “Hillary Clinton Refuses to Rule Out Any and All Benefit Cuts to Social

Security"

For Immediate Release
Friday, February 5, 2016 - 3:30pm
Progressive Change Campaign Committee

WASHINGTON - Today, after Sec. Hillary Clinton’s campaign made clear for the first time that she will not commit to never cut Social Security, the Progressive Change Campaign Committee and Social Security Works have launched an online ad buy in New Hampshire to increase pressure on Clinton to make that explicit promise before Tuesday’s primary.

Stephanie Taylor, Co-founder of the PCCC issued the following statement:

“Hillary Clinton says she has ‘no plans’ to cut Social Security -- but George W. Bush had ‘no plans’ to invade Iraq. That is not a promise, and our grandparents and veterans need a promise.

“It is an absolute must for a Democratic nominee who claims to be progressive to say clearly and unequivocally that they will never cut Social Security benefits. Bernie Sanders has made that commitment. Hillary Clinton should make that commitment before the New Hampshire primary so Democrats can focus on expanding benefits.”

Facts on Social Security:

Two thirds of American seniors rely on Social Security for most of their income.

The average benefit received by women in 2014 was $13,016—just $1,346 over the federal poverty limit for an individual.

The average Social Security benefit is just $16,092 a year, less for African Americans and Latinos. This barely clears the poverty line.

94% of Americans oppose cuts to Social Security, and vast majorities of Democrats, Independents, and Republicans support expansion.

http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2016/02/05/huff-post-hillary-clinton-refuses-rule-out-any-and-all-benefit-cuts-social

[DanTex]

139. It's right there on her campaign website, and it can hardly be clearer.

She's opposed to benefit cuts. She's opposed to raising the retirement age. She's opposed to privatization. She's opposed to slowing down cost of living adjustments.

So whoever is writing that stuff, either by accident or on purpose, failed to do a simple google search.

[notadmblnd]

140. And it's right there on my post as of yesterday at 3:30

As I said, somebody is lying.

[Logical]

141. DanTex....making up shit. Nt

[riversedge]

142. Spot on. Thanks for the illuminating post.

[workinclasszero]

146. Lies, smears and fear.

Why does the Bernie Sanders campaign have the exact same atmosphere and tone as the republicans campaign???

[Hoyt]

151. Said same about Obama -- he's gonna slash Social Security, approve pipeline, abandon net-neutrality.

[Politicalboi]

152. Not going to cut it

But just raise the age for getting it. FU HilLIARy.

[Thinkingabout]

153. Who would even venture to even think about Hillary ever proposing

To cut SS. This is a direct RW point, the GOP wants to cut SS. Currently SS is funded through 2034, Hillary will be out of office and in the history books by then. Sounds like too much FOX or Rush talk shows and some are getting confused. This time spent on harassing Hillary should be redirected to the Republican candidates. Just another smear and cognitive dissonance, the Libertarian party loves cognitive dissonance.

Great post Dan, I worry more about Bernie pushing Medicare for all than Hillary ever thinking about SS cuts. We can talk about the issues but leave the lies somewhere like FOX.