Hillary absolutely positively cannot win the general election

[cali]

without young voters. So why are so many Clinton supporters bound and determined to alienate them? The attacks on young voters who support him over Hillary has been non-stop. It's incredibly shortsighted.

It's no secret that I think Hillary will be the nominee. Nor is it a secret that I think she'll fare poorly in the general, particularly against Marco Rubio, who I think will be the republican nominee. Hillary's supporters, some of her surrogates, and lots of the pundits are doing her no favors by trashing Sanders supporters or piling on Bernie.

No, those young voters won't vote republican, but lots of them, could very well just not vote.

And that will be the death knell in the general election. Hillary is not going to be able to replicate Obama's success with black voters.

She desperately needs these young voters.

[treestar]

1. Why are they so much more important than the rest of us?

Than African Americans and Latin Americans and women and everyone else?

[TCJ70]

2. Youth voters...

...covers any demographic you can think of or are at least a part of those groups you mention. Young African Americans, Young Latin Americans, Young women...the list goes on...

[treestar]

5. Even so, older people get one vote each too

and young AA voters don't necessarily support Bernie. His only positive demographic is white, and that barely.

[elias49]

25. '..young AA voters don't necessarily support Bernie..'

I don't know what this means, especially with the "necessarily" adverb.
Do young AA voters necessarily support Hillary?

[treestar]

56. Is there a poll showing who they support?

If so, why do they matter more than older AA people?

[retrowire]

69. there are more young voters than there are old. nt

[treestar]

81. that's not proof regarding minority youth

[retrowire]

94. youth is youth. i thought we were talking all youth combined nt

[kath]

70. IIRC, Bernie got 34% of the non-white vote in Iowa.

Not sure if that 34 was defined as African-American or as "non-white" or "minority".
That is significantly higher than previous polls showed him doing with minorities.

[treestar]

82. not proof regarding youth, and he got minority as it is

[Hortensis]

92. Right! Mother Jones: "Millennials Like Hillary Clinton Just Fine"

Langer Research polled millennials in general, no racial/ethnic breakdown, on ENTHUSIASM, which is likely to translate to amount of turnout. From Mother Jones:

It's the first election day of the cycle, so I might as well go with the flow. Langer Research recently asked millennials how they'd feel if various candidates won the presidency. Here were the choices:

* like declaring a national holiday
* like there's a light at the end of the tunnel
* like shrugging
* like going back to bed
* like fleeing the country

And here are the results:

Needless to say, Donald Trump elicited the most extreme reaction. More interesting, I think, is that even among millennials there's really no enthusiasm gap between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. This has decidedly not been the conventional wisdom, and most poll results seem to confirm that Sanders has more support among the young. But this one, which explicitly measures enthusiasm, shows no difference. Apparently young liberals are just as excited about a Clinton presidency as a Sanders one.

That "excited" is obviously a wry note.

Bernie got 30% positive, 28% shrug, 0 excitement.
Hillary got 30% positive, 25% shrug, 0 excitement.

Not exactly promising for turnout... (Dammit!)

[jham123]

101. Yet again

Another example of a 50/50 split in the Dem party....just like Monday night

[Hortensis]

145. Split in Dems? I don't think so - really!

Most Democrats like both Bernie and Hillary. Hillary does have a strong % advantage over Bernie, but that same large majority is mostly happy with Bernie as their second choice. That's not a split. That's unity.

Only here on DU and in a few other places where certain types of Bernie supporters gather do you find the "split," marked with real enmity toward Democrats and especially against Hillary. Their dreams of Hillary being lead off in handcuffs are passionate, true, but they're an aberration, even among Bernie supporters as a whole (see above).

[jham123]

223. Wait, What?

I'm confused, you are stating that since we spit damn near 50/50 in Iowa, we're united??

That's got to be a bit of Common Core type math if you ask my opinion. I've not seen this much of an insurrection in the Dem party in decades. There is no Unity there at all....and the trial balloon they are floating now is that all the Sanders supporters will magically back Hillary if Sanders drops out and endorses her...

Newsflash: The ones that voted for Bernie did so cause they didn't like Hillary despite her political machine and the DNC cramming her down everyone's throat. With all her political ties, one has to fight to stand against her via a vote for Bernie.

And why Bernie and not MoM??

MoM was just another of the same ol' same ol' The people want Bernie, his message is clear and hits home. His message and his honesty is the 'only' thing he has going for him. Not the power brokers, not the DNC, and surely not the Clinton Political Machine with $6M in donations from Soros....

Honestly, I wonder when I read a response like yours

[Hortensis]

225. Here's what unity looks like, Jham.

See? Two people who are separate but agree. The little one on the left likes both Hillary and Bernie but prefers Bernie. The one on the right likes them both too but prefers Hillary.

Now multiple them by over 100,000 and you a fairly representative picture of where Democratic Party voters really are.

[jham123]

226. You can "see" whatever you want..

But a little research and little reading on THIS SITE would lead anyone to believe that there are plenty who do not "like" Hillary even in the slightest.....that's a fallacy that the DNC would like to float out there to get the weak minded to vote for Hillary should Bernie drop out.

[kracer20]

107. What???

Those are the most ridiculous responses in a poll I've ever seen. If I were Langer Research I'd be hanging my head. Come on, they are millennials, I think they understand a numbering system of sorts.

[Glamrock]

121. In that same poll

She's running negative favorability. 41 negative to 30 pos. Second highest negative number in the poll.

[BillZBubb]

129. The "flee the country" response for Hillary is dangerously high.

Second only to trump.

[Hortensis]

131. This includes CONSERVATIVE millennials, BillZ.

They've been brought up on Hillary Hate, a negativism which is so deeply inculcated on the right that it's served up with dinner like chatting about the weather.

[PyaarRevolution]

199. Weird.

Yes more shrug when it comes to Bernie but then more feel there's a light at the end of the tunnel compared to Hillary. Interesting that it says 15% more would feel like leaving the country when comparing Hillary to Bernie.

[workinclasszero]

217. No kidding

He couldn't even win 90 percent plus white Iowa.

Bernies campaign is going to die in large states with many delegates that actually resemble the real America, starting with SC and then its all over after super tuesday.

[kcr]

222. Not to mention older people tend to be more reliable voters as a bloc

So it's foolish to discount them.

[cali]

10. Oh didn't say that. Now please tell me how

she puts together a winning coalition without a healthy turnout of young voters.

[H2O Man]

17. Exactly right.

We simply need to look at the past four presidential election contests for confirmation of this. The Obama coalition was able to win in both 2008 and 2012 by wide margins, by appealing to a variety of groups that included the youth vote. His ability to inspire young people to get out the vote created the margin of victory both times.

[malthaussen]

54. Seems simple enough.

Why is this, apparently, so hard for supporters of both Democratic candidates to see?

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

158. In my opinion,

there are some individuals who mistakenly believe that by purposely avoiding recognizing obvious truths, they are displaying loyalty to their cause.

[malthaussen]

164. Alas, there is much of that going around.

As obvious and unpleasant truths are piling up all around us. I sometimes fear that institutional thinking will write the epitaph of Western Civilization. We've "progressed" to the point of having the vices of our virtues.

-- Mal

[Hortensis]

46. Bernie does not have the minority millennials.

They favor Clinton overall, but the question is how many will come out to vote. In any case, whether they vote or not, Bernie doesn't have this big chunk of the youth vote.

BTW, speaking of Hispanics (let's not forget them, right? -- "Hispanic voters matter."?)

"Clinton also enjoys a significant lead in the contention for the nomination of her own Democratic Party. Of the Hispanic voters interviewed, 73% state that they would vote for her, while none of her Democratic rivals approaches showing double digits. Of those interviewed, 68% have a favorable opinion of the former Secretary of State, 26% have an unfavorable opinion, and only 6% do not know her or have not formed an opinion about her, according to Univision’s exclusive survey."

[KingCharlemagne]

100. Friendly word of advice: my Latino and Latina friends tell me they prefer the

word "Latino" to the word "Hispanic" (for reasons that currently elude me).

Perhaps one of our Latino or Latina members here can weigh in on this.

[Hortensis]

152. Yes, that one seems to be all over the place.

Maybe they could unite on one label and have another 200,000 "HispLat" march. 2016 would a good time to remind themselves as well as everyone else that they have real weight to throw around.

Personally, I'd like to see minority conservatives march on the GOP and take it over. Isn't it way past time? The hard-right white supremacists, who are powering so much of the right's craziness and nastiness, belong in a marginalized little party of their own where they can froth at everyone else from the sidelines.

[loyalsister]

196. I'm not Latina, but I found this useful....

If you still don’t know the difference between the terms “Latino” and “Hispanic,” perhaps this mini comic from cartoonist Terry Blas will help you gain a better understanding of what the two words mean.

Blas, whose mother is Mexican and father is white, said his comic "You Say Latino" was inspired by his bicultural upbringing.

“Growing up I was closer and more familiar with my mom’s side of the family,” wrote Blas in the comic. “So I started saying ‘I’m Hispanic’ or ‘I’m Latino’ and using them both interchangeably.” It wasn’t until he visited New York City as a missionary and met people from “almost every country in Latin America,” that he said he was finally able to understand the difference between both terms. Now he’s out to share what he’s learned with others, through the mini comic below......

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/this-comic-illustrates-the-difference-between-the-terms-latino-and-hispanic_us_55d4fe67e4b07addcb457343

[treestar]

59. Explain how any Democrat does that without AA voters

[cali]

99. Do try to focus. I said right in the op that I expect Hillary

to be the nominee. But even if I hadn't made that crystal clear, your response is ludicrous. Obviously, if Bernie did beat Hillary, he'd have AA support. Basic logical thinking. Employ some.

[OilemFirchen]

154. Do you have any evidence of this?

Obviously, if Bernie did beat Hillary, he'd have AA support.

What data show that black voters will turn out for Sanders if Clinton isn't the nominee?

[cali]

157. Oh for the love of logic. How many times have Hillary

supporters said (and accurately) that he can't beat her in the primary without strong minority support? Clearly if he does beat her he'll have substantial minority support.

[OilemFirchen]

171. OIC.

Circular logic is still logic, eh? Fine. Sanders supporters insist that she can't win the nomination without millennials. If she does win the nomination, then obviously she'll have substantial millennial support.

Did I miss anything?

[Hortensis]

169. Cali, many AA voters are pretty conservative.

Even their liberals trend centrist and moderate. Very large numbers live in the conservative Deep South (over 30% of the populace here in Georgia) and large numbers are strong churchgoers.

I think it's reasonable to assume that some conservatives might head for the GOP (who, tho!) or just not go vote if Bernie were the nominee. Not a stampede or anything like that, but he has not committed himself to earning this very important block's support and they're very aware of that.

[malthaussen]

49. Seems like a disengenuous question.

The argument that the candidate requires a certain demographic to push her totals up to the point of victory does not equate to the claim that that demo is "more important," simply that it is required to make up the numbers. A similar argument can be made for Mr Sanders: he requires additional demos besides the ones he already has, or he won't win the nomination.

-- Mal

[treestar]

60. He certainly requires a lot more additional demos than Hillary does

considering he has only one so far.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

52. They are the future - and...

the future is what is being destroyed by the our system

[treestar]

74. Well damn, I'm still alive and I care about my future too

LOL.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

87. Then vote Sanders

Greatest threat - hillary -isis

Sanders - Environment

We spend a trillion a year on the military - isis is an irritant - brought to you by hillarys vote

don't look at the shinny object

[m-lekktor]

58. damn, Treestar, last time I checked all those catagories have young voters.

[treestar]

76. Well you did not check any polls to determine that minority youth

prefer Bernie.

There so far has been no differentiation between age and race - no breakdown that proves AA youth go with youth rather than with AA.

[quakerboy]

83. More important? No

more likely to take their leave of us if ignored?

That yes. They dont feel obligated to chose the lesser of two evils.

One measure that I would look at: Bernie won among those who do not regularly caucus. Interpreting a bit, that means bernie brought people to the polls. Are we more likely to win the election with the addition of new voters, or with a focus mostly on maintenance of our regular voters? We need both, but practically speaking, the regulars tend to vote whether they like the candidates the best or not, whereas the new voters dont. Which suggests the answer to me. I would argue that we need a 2008 style electorate showing, not a 2014 style electorate, if we are to keep a republican out of the white house.

[eridani]

213. They are now the largest voting bloc, displacing Baby Boomers n/t

[gyroscope]

3. Hillary would depress the youth vote

while motivating the republican vote like nothing else can. a double whammy.

she would be a disaster for us in the GE.

[JaneyVee]

7. Even though the new polls show her beating every Repub.

[gyroscope]

9. What polls?

got a link?

[cali]

29. No they sure the fuck don't.

You made the claim. Substantiate it. As it's a false claim, you'll have a tough time doing that.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_presidential_race.html

[cali]

44. Run, janey, run.

[eridani]

214. The same polls show Sanders beating them by more n/t

[SheilaT]

123. Hillary would depress this senior's vote.

[jillan]

144. Me too!!

[ChiciB1]

178. It Will This Senior's Vote! n/t

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

179. I thought Obama was supposed to motivate Repubs unlike anything else? n/m

[Pisces]

4. This is nothing to 2008. The voters will support Hillary in the general. Quit trying to make it more

of a feud than it is. The absolute anger and dislike in 2008 was real and felt by supporters on both sides. No one dislikes
Bernie or his supporters.

[stillwaiting]

13. This is not true for me anecdotally.

It seems quite a lot of the youth vote and independents don't like Clinton (with many saying they won't vote for her).

You're right though that very few people dislike Bernie.

Those two facts compel me to believe that Bernie would be stronger in the General Election. Much stronger.

We can't win without the youth votes and independents coming in for the Dem candidate.

We have a lot at stake here. I hope we choose wisely.

[pinebox]

14. You are flat out WRONG

It's not 2008, you're right, it's worse, a lot worse. Years of stagnant wages have hurt the American people badly and to say the anger people don't feel now isn't real ignores the realities of both Sanders & Trump's campaigns. We're fed up! Period!
People will support Hillary? Democrats maybe and some of them, many people will NEVER vote for Hillary and that includes Dems and indy's. She is 100% untrustworthy and lies through her teeth.

Nobody has time for that. Including myself.

If Hillary is the nominee she will lose. Cruz and Rubio both beat her according to polls. Bernie beats all of them.

[earthside]

26. It really is the fate of the nation and the Democratic Party.

It is not 2008 ... it is worse, a lot worse.

If the Clinton corporate establishment machine is able to insinuate its way into getting the nomination for president, the Democratic Party as the "party of the people" is over. The Democratic Party will indeed become a wholly-owned subsidiary of the investment banking elites.

If we don't elect a person like Sen. Sanders to the presidency, then the rightward tilt of the United States will become so pronounced that we might just as well turn governance of the country over to Goldman Sachs/Morgan Stanley (if Hillary were president) or to Raytheon-Lockheed Martin (if a Repuglican wins) and do away with the travesty of elections.

The stakes are that high.

I have never not voted for a Democrat to be President of the United States, but dynastic politics is anathema to me, as is oligarchy.

Maybe Hillary can beat a Cruz ... I don't think she can beat Trump or Rubio.
But speaking just for myself, I'm done voting for the lesser of two corporate evils.

[pinebox]

37. Hillary loses to Cruz

Check RCP.

If Hillary is nominated, the Dem party is finished. As it is, both parties are bleeding people & only 1 person on the left is growing the party--Bernie.

Period. Full stop. Otherwise you can say hi to the rise of a legitimate 3rd party. People have absolutely had it!

[SoapBox]

53. The "Anybody but Hillary" vote will be strong.

IF she's in the GE...Dems will not vote and the CRAZY will be out in force against her.

She can't yell her way out of that.

So many feel as I do...No More Clintons.

[Locrian]

63. So many feel as I do...No More Clintons.

Esp the young voters. They can't stand her. And they'll stay home. They don't have the same view on picking the lesser of two evils.

[earthside]

61. The party establishment doesn't get it.

This is anecdotal, but here in Colorado in the last month, I've encountered several people who used to be Democrats who changed their registration to 'unaffiliated'.

Democrats, liberals, progressives I know don't think Pres. Obama is bad, but they also believe that he has been a rather ineffective leader of the party and of the nation. Clinton is running as a continuation of that milquetoasty kind of leadership (it's barely leadership at all).

People are angry and very frustrated. We are still making what we made in 2007 ... but our Obamacare premiums and detectable are going up; the cost of sending your children to college is still skyrocketing; local and state governments are raising taxes and giving even more money away to big corporations; fees for public school are going up; services are going down; it just goes on and on.

And all we hear from Hillary and the establishment Democrats is that, well, we can elect the first woman president and, jeez, we have a Repuglican Congress so get used to it.

So, a lot of folks who care are giving-up on the Democrats and becoming independents or unaffiliated ... because why not? The Democrats like Hillary aren't doing anything for us, so why be associated with them.

This is very serious stuff and the Democrats are blowing it by going down this corporatist banker path with the Clintons and the risk averse, insider party elites.

There is now only one chance to save the Democratic Party from itself right now.

[pinebox]

64. I'm a Colorado indy

who switched to Dem in order to caucus for Bernie.

[dana_b]

141. same here but in California

as well as my daughter, her boyfriend and 5 of their friends (all millenials!). I know this is all anecdotal but none of the will vote for Hillary. It's scary.

[PyaarRevolution]

200. Kansas indy here.

I'm going Democrat so I can vote for Bernie in the primaries. I hold NO hope Hillary can win Kansas in the GE but I truly believe Bernie could carry Kansas, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, etc. I don't think Hillary fans realize the power of the message Bernie will send towards MSM, Congress, etc. The view will be a shockwave, that we want real change and won't tolerate anymore of this Corporate bullshit, this Trickle Down Economics set up where we get table scraps like a dog begging for them under the kitchen table.

[ChiciB1]

176. I Haven't Said I Won't Vote For Hillary, BUT I HAVE Said

I WILL LEAVE The Democratic Party! I'm extremely fed up and totally DISGUSTED at what the Democratic Party has become.

Right now Obama is in New Zealand, and because of the time difference HAS ALREADY signed the TPP Treaty!!

I think Hillary said she's against, or that she's evolved on this which may or may not mean she now is against it! SAY WHAT YOU MEAN and MEAN WHAT YOU SAY! When it comes to her "EVOLVING" on other issues and also NOT saying Yea or Nay on others, this evasiveness says so much to me! I DON'T TRUST HER!

I also want to add another comment, I DO know people who have told me THEY won't vote for her. I will add that I've tried to make them understand what it might mean regarding the Supreme Court, BUT they've told me that they're not even sure they can trust her on this.

I don't like repeating this, but UNFORTUNATELY too many long time Democrats have lost faith. I haven't gone so far as to say I won't vote for her, but my support is extremely weak and should she become POTUS I know I'll leave the Party. To remain a Democrat when THIS Party has turned so far to the right it will be very difficult for me to support the policies that now define the Democratic Party I joined so long ago. I have never been ANYTHING but a Democrat in my entire life since way back when I was 18!

So this is a real TRUTH that this Democratic Party MUST take seriously and it had better take it VERY SOON!

[Dragonfli]

188. I understand you completely, I also became a Democrat at 18, to vote for something

That something was the working class and the poor, demographics I grew up in. I believed in the New Deal and how it helped us, The Great Society and how it helped us, and finally I believed in civil liberties because I have always lived in diverse neighborhoods where we were all together and were friends. I also joined to vote against the Republicans that kept hurting us and helping those that did not need help at our expense, the wealthy that already had everything they needed and wanted, yet wanted even more at our expense anyway.

I now find myself in a party that is extolling and implementing the same policies the Republicans I always voted against were offering. If I wanted that I would have become a Republican at 18.

With a new Fascist party, and a Republican party using the Democratic name. I have nothing left to vote for, only Sanders and a handful of others remain that are still offering what I want to vote for and all the others offer only things I would vote against, or not at all.

I no longer have a party to vote for, or a party that doesn't want to take from those that work hard and give it all to those that have it all.

This is my last election as a Democrat, because the party no longer exists and there is only loss in the future for the poor and working classes. Civil rights have gone to hell along with the economics as those without WASP privilege are losing there rights by way of being the poorest and least represented by both parties. Lip service will not help those that are being hit the hardest by the right wing, even when that lip service comes from a right winger that calls herself a Democrat.

The party must go back or it will lose so many that the Greens may have more members.

There are reasons for this if anyone cares why we have reached this abysmal state as a party:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12774832

[ChiciB1]

227. Hey, Just Want To Say I Was Going To Reply To You

earlier, but I began reading your journal entries and I see we are very probably close to the same age and that we also DID know a very different Democratic Party.

I once entertained becoming a Green and attended some of their meetings, but decided not to. I've been a wavering Democrat for a long time now, but living in FL our Primaries are closed so changing back forth seemed kind of stupid. Voting was a way of having my voice heard. I WANT to still believe this BUT I DO live in Florida! We KNOW what happened and it not only happened in 2000, but during other elections here in some way or another.

I don't want to get long winded, but recently I've begun to feel OPTIMISM about what's happening in this country. It's NOT the hope & change thing, it's a movement optimism that I absolutely doubt would not have and absolutely believe would not be present if Bernie wasn't running. I WANT and WILL help to get him elected, but even if he doesn't make it I've begun to see small changes. One huge change is here in Florida with Tim Canova who has decided to challenge DWS for her seat in Congress. He's gotten some great response and I'm sure it's because of how she's now perceived. He would NEVER had thrown his hat in had it not been for Bernie.

I listen to Thom Hartmann all the time and he has a guest named Bob Nye on who wrote a book called "Sideswiped." He was a former Repug who was prosecuted and went to jail, you may know who I'm talking about. Anyway, he was on his show today talking about Bernie and How Well and How Effectively Bernie worked with Repugs. And at times telling the other member to put their name on it and he would co-sponsor the bill. He talked about him passing more bills than anyone in Congress and HIS PASSION and belief. Basically, he's THE REAL DEAL! He praised him as one who is absolutely able to get legislation passed.

Small potato information right now, but it's growing. Most important of all, people are beginning to listen AND by watching RT they've had programs on with millennial groups who are growing and building in a much different way than Obama. Not necessarily affiliated with the 2 major parties, but to issues. The TWO issues that mean more to them right now?? CLIMATE (Bernie) and College Debt (Bernie Again) and they are building and building. They are Bernie supporters.

One more thing I want to add. I'm a Boomer White Woman who knows MORE of me. We ARE NOT supporting Hillary. A friend of mine just arrived from Chicago and she told me last night that she has decided to vote for him. We've talked politics a lot and she always asked me if I didn't want a woman POTUS. I told her sure, but not her. She stuck with Hillary, UNTIL NOW!

Ok, I did get long winded. And maybe I'm on a little high because of Iowa and stuff I'm seeing, but MAYBE I'm not dreaming THIS TIME!

[senz]

207. One little question.

What's RCP?

[pinebox]

208. Real Clear Politics

http://www.realclearpolitics.com

[senz]

209. Thank you!

Looks like it's talking about the things I'm thinking about. What a nice find!

[pinebox]

210. Welcome!

[Pisces]

193. I guess we will see, but I know the 2 camps do not dislike each other like 2008. Hillary will beat

any of the Repub candidates easily. They are all unqualified. Good luck on your agenda.

[pinebox]

219. No she won't

I don't know why you guys fail to believe this. Hello, wake up! Her favorability is underwater and nobody has EVER won with a negative number. The polls show her losing to Rubio and Cruz.

When given the choice between the Demopublican and Republican candidate, people choose the Republican.

Wake up! http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511131226

[cali]

50. You offer no evidence or reasoning for that claim.

And sorry, but the attacks on Sanders supporters have been well documented. And there have been a lot of them.

[eridani]

215. Yes--the ones that actually vote n/t

[JaneyVee]

6. New polls show her beating every Republican...

Even as they run attack ads 24/7. And she will shellack them all at debates.

[elias49]

28. Still no supporting evidence for your claim.

What polls? MSNBC? Harris? CNN?
The Gold Standard poll from Iowa?
Which one(S)?

[jham123]

98. She...

She keeps posting that without any sort of link to substantiate

[frylock]

108. Nuh-uhh

[dana_b]

142. proof?? n/t

[restorefreedom]

8. i heard a plug for rubio and one of his selling points

is that he beats hillary in the ge!

she can't win, and that is becoming increasingly obvious.

[artislife]

135. I wonder how many of us Latinos would vote to get one of us in?

We are historically a low voting group, but how many of us would break from Hilary and vote for him.

Lets face it, she really hasn't done a lot of good for our community specifically, no matter what the common wisdom tries to say.

[restorefreedom]

160. wow, excellent point

there are so many factors that people consider when they vote, and she unfortunately appeals to very few of those factors, unless one is very wealthy or really really wants to see a woman president above all else.

[emulatorloo]

184. However, Rubio is bat-shit insane. Just like Trump and Cruz

[Autumn]

11. No she will not, and she can't win without Independents.

There are also Democrats who will not vote for her.

[NCTraveler]

12. I don't attack and alienate young voters. Just the opposite.

I take some time each year to do voter registration on a college campus. I love getting youth involved. I have talked to a number of millenials about Clinton and all but the republicans/libertarians are really receptive to her.

Also, I don't put weight behind anything you say about Clinton. I find the claim that she can't win the general to be funny crystal ball kind of stuff. Amusing. Nothing more.

Your argument is based in supporters. Always a wasted effort in debate with very little point. These are the arguments that come down to "someone on the internet said." What you are doing is an attempt to promote a feud. That is extremely clear. Stoke the flames. lol.

[ElliotCarver]

20. Chris Matthews attacks and alienates young voters

And I'm sorry Mr NCTraveler to break it to you:

Almost every single person around my age with whom I have spoken dislikes Hillary enough not to vote for her. Which should frighten the shit out of ye who clamor for the anointed one.

[NCTraveler]

23. .

"Almost every single person around my age with whom I have spoken dislikes Hillary enough not to vote for her."

I get that is who you are surrounded by. It seems to be a lot different around me. The young people I talk to are for the most part receptive. Except the conservative/libertarian/anarchist crowd.

I could care less about Chris Matthews.

No need to apologize to me. I will accept your apology as you were sincere enough to offer. Thanks for being gentle with your anecdote. Seems our anecdotes cancel one and other out, therefore we will have to simply stick with facts. Clinton won the first primary and is moving forward to the nomination. I will continue to talk to young people about her.

[ElliotCarver]

30. Whereabouts in NC are you?

My siblings are at Duke and UNC.

The problem as I see it is that she needs to be spoonfed to young voters before they will consider supporting her. It's almost like...supporting Hillary entails a process of self-abnegation...overriding the gut reaction and "coming around" to see the light. She's...just kind of off-putting.

Whereas, we hear Bernie and we automatically like him. He irradiates truth and honesty. He embodies fighting the good fight.

Is it not those qualities that make him a strong GE candidate? And make Hillary a liability?

[NCTraveler]

32. Not in NC.

Though I do spend time at UNC. Have some family up there and for educational purposes. Been to Duke a couple of times as well.

[ElliotCarver]

41. Gotcha gotcha.

But what say you to my last point about the GE, in terms of likability / liability?

I believe we are of the same mind that under no circumstances can the Repubs be allowed to get the White House. Which is why I am genuinely frightened of nominating Hillary...I just don't think people on our side will show up in droves for her. But we know - without a scintilla of doubt - that the Republican turnout against Hillary will be historical.

[NCTraveler]

43. I believe there are direct quotes of Sanders that aren't even allowed for discussion here.

There are videos of him, taken in full, not out of context, that are hidden here.

I don't agree with your likability assessment at all. We have no Obama in this race and think we would be best served to stop talking as if there was one. I don't think Sanders is our best bet in the general. To be fair, we are both simply guessing on that one. I think either is going to have a tough time in the General unless we get to face of against Trump. I believe that is our only cake walk.

[jham123]

97. I have a bone of contention...

...your first assertion NCT, "republicans/libertarians are really receptive to her"

I'm not sure which Pubs you are speaking with, but the ones that travel in and out of my circle are vehemently opposed to "anything" Clinton. They applaud the "Anyone but Clinton" vote. They aren't going to vote for Bernie, but they hate hate hate Clinton.

This is the issue with the independent voter as well......hence the 50/50 split in our party from Monday night.

[treestar]

62. +1

You nailed it.

[BigGLiberal]

15. According to keyboard warriors or actual Democrats?

[frylock]

109. I hope you're not relying solely upon actual Democrats.

Hi. Non-affiliated voter here. You know, we actually have a say in the matter, and we vastly outnumber you Democrats.

[jeff47]

117. Actual Democrats are 30% of the electorate.

You don't win the White House with 30%.

[DanTex]

16. This is true. Bernie's greatest moment will be when he endorses her and manages to bring those

young voters into a broad Democratic coalition.

[ElliotCarver]

21. In what alternate universe do you really think millennials go to the mat for Hillary? nt

[DanTex]

22. I'm expecting a strong endorsement from Bernie. Aren't you? Do you think millenials won't

be able to understand what's at stake in the presidential election? Even when Bernie is explaining it to them?

[ElliotCarver]

24. Condescension aside, people vote with their hearts

Yes, Bernie would endorse Hillary, but I doubt that endorsement would bring the whole brigade to the GE

[DanTex]

27. Maybe not the whole brigade, but you overlook that Hillary also has a brigade, which

by all indications is larger than Bernie's brigade. And she also hasn't gone around calling herself a "socialist", a decision that I truly can't understand, since Bernie isn't actually a socialist (anymore at least), nor is he a "democratic socialist" in the standard definition.

[ElliotCarver]

31. We need to debunk the socialist stigma, that's for damn sure!

Because a little socialism would be good for everyone!

[DanTex]

35. I agree with that, but I'd rather not mix the stigma debunking with a presidential election.

At least wait until the stigma is already debunked before putting up a self-described socialist against the GOP.

[ElliotCarver]

38. There's no worry, though, if the myth is thoroughly debunked amongst an energized

Democratic electorate.

Because the GOP can slander socialism all they want, but if all the newcomers to the Dems (thanks to Bernie) and all the old guard rally around him, we still win the GE

[DanTex]

40. I'm not worried about the stigma among energized Democrats. I'm worried about the stigma among

everyone else. They get to vote too.

[treestar]

66. Exactly, it should be the opposite in that Bernie can't bring in those voters

so how does he expect to win.

OP puts it all on one demographic as all important because that's the one Bernie has. Doesn't make them an overall majority that can sink us and put a Republican in the WH due to their inaction. It's insulting to them really.

[Codeine]

168. I've never once voted with my heart.

Doing so is childish and silly. Democracy is a responsibility, not a love affair.

[ElliotCarver]

175. goodness, me, the epitome of a VSP nt

[Codeine]

180. Elections are VSB. nt

[ElliotCarver]

183. then elect someone who is Very Serious about helping the American people

as opposed to factions of billionaires and corporate backers

[JPnoodleman]

75. Unless we are staring down the Trumpocolypse....

What major differences can I expect from a Clinton presidency that wouldn't Also be granted by a Rubio presidency?

[Nitram]

39. Elliot, if millenials don't vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination...

... they will be harming their own future irreparably. If they can't see that, then their reasons for voting for Sanders are also suspect.

[ElliotCarver]

42. You can't call 'suspect' the passion Bernie is inspiring amongst young voters

But you are right that it would be against our best interests not to vote in the GE just because Hillary is the nominee. I agree with you there, which is why I personally would show up and vote. Without a doubt. But sooooo many of the kids who are feeling the bern from, for instance, a college campus, will shrug their shoulders on Nov. 8 because it's just another school day and they have class so why would they deviate from what's really important to them to go vote for a candidate they don't think cares about them?

[Nitram]

45. If they don't vote for clinton it neans they don't have a clue what is at stake.

If they really are that clueless, their support for Bernie would seem to be based purely on emotion rather than on the facts. That's a lousy way to pick a candidate.

[ElliotCarver]

57. Nah...I think most just won't see Hillary as a reliable figure

to protect the values that Bernie is espousing. We see who funds her campaign and blanch. She might as well be Republican with that roster of benefactors

[JPnoodleman]

79. Yeah I mean, don't us Youthful morons know Clinton is trying to establish a dynasty here! /nt

[Beowulf]

130. If you had a clue what's at stake

You wouldn't offer such a compromised candidate as Clinton. No one with her negatives has ever won a general election. She can't win the primary without going negative and she's hired one of the best at going negative (Brock). Then there's the possibility of being indicted. If she isn't indicted, the GOP will say it's because Obama pressured the FBI not to recommend indicting her. If the FBI recommends indictment but the Justice department disagrees, she's finished and so is Obama's legacy. If the Justice Department indicts, she's finished, guilty or not. I get the sense that she and her supporters aren't all that interested in issues, with the possible exception of women's reproductive rights. If she truly cared about issues, if she truly appreciated what's at stake for most Americans in this election, she'd get out of the way. Robert Strauss used to say back in the 80's, that the candidates who the Dems could get nominated for president couldn't win the general, and the candidates who could win the general, couldn't get nominated. I fear that's the situation now.

[treestar]

67. It is hard to consider Bernie as inspiring any passion

when one lived through the Obama era.

And older people can also have "passion" so it's ageists to insist only the young people can do anything and they are a more important demographic. No matter how much their "passion" if it does not bring in votes, it is just more drama.

[ElliotCarver]

84. Oh, please, it's not ageist to say that young people are the future

and old people are on their way out. Wouldn't you want to leave behind a world that is a little less gilded age, a little more equality?

[Nitram]

159. Elliot, your statement that "old people are on their way out" is both crude and ageist.

People in their 40s still have another 40 years at least. they are not "on their way out". We all want to un-gild the age. You seem stuck in the rut of your petty little us against them, young vs old mentality.

[jeff47]

124. And if they vote for Clinton, they are harming their own future irreparably.

The status quo is actively harming people 40 and under. GenX is going to be the first generation in US history to die worse off than their parents, and Millennials are even worse off.

Clinton's main promise is to maintain the status quo that is actively harming these voters.

A campaign of "I'll hurt you less" isn't going to do it.

[Nitram]

162. Let's dispense with your straw man argument, jeff, and admit that Clinton is not for the status quo.

She differs form Bernie in wanting to build on the hard-fought gains Obama has made rather than throw it all away in an effort to change everything all at once.Unless you get a Democratic majority in both the Senate and the House, Bernie's promises are mere pipe dreams. We want change, and the only way to bring it about is with patience and hard work.

[jeff47]

174. To do that, you'd have to actually demonstrate some place where she can change it

And your post, while properly loaded with buzzwords to pretend to be knowledgeable, utterly fails to do that.

Unless you get a Democratic majority in both the Senate and the House, Bernie's promises are mere pipe dreams

Ditto for Clinton. Absolutely nothing she has proposed on the domestic front can occur without a Democratic Congress. That's why she hasn't quite explained what "executive actions" she would take to implement her plans - there aren't any. Everything she proposes requires money, which means Congress has to be involved.

We want change, and the only way to bring it about is with patience and hard work.

And here's the actual strawman: The erroneous belief that Sanders supporters believe he has a magic wand.

The point of Sanders's proposals is not to pass them in a year or two. The point of his proposals is to stake out where we will be after lots and lots of hard work. The only people pretending otherwise are Clinton supporters.

We've been fighting for single-payer for 80 years. We are well aware that we can not win in the next two. And you really should not lecture us on hard work and patience, when you demand we abandon those 80 years for what can't actually happen in two.

[Nitram]

189. And your post, while thoroughly loaded with insults, perfectly manages...

...to avoid the points I raised. But that's OK, that's what we'd expect of you.

If you don't believe Bernie has a magic wand, how is he going to accomplish all he has promised in 4 years? Or 8? That's all he's going to have, tops. Magical thinking, my friend. And if I am pretending patience and hard work are not necessary, why did I say they are in my post? You are either a poor reader or a troll, hard to tell which.

[jeff47]

192. What points?

Feel free to actually list them instead of plugging together words you think sound good.

If you don't believe Bernie has a magic wand, how is he going to accomplish all he has promised in 4 years? Or 8?

He isn't.

Guess what? Clinton won't accomplish what she has promised either.

The difference is Sanders is laying the groundwork to accomplish them eventually. Clinton stops at "it can't pass now, so we're not going to bother working towards it".

And if I am pretending patience and hard work are not necessary, why did I say they are in my post?

Try reading. You'll find that I didn't make this claim. But it is a whole lot easier to attack me with it than with what I actually posted.

[cali]

55. Bernie's greatest moments, to date, have been in exposing what a weak candidate

Hill is.

[DanTex]

71. I don't see it that way, and I doubt Bernie would.

His greatest moments have been inspiring millions of people to become engaged in the political system using his strongly progressive message.

[senz]

212. I can't believe you wrote that.

It actually sounded like you meant it and it was true.

[jeff47]

119. You utterly misunderstand the people supporting Sanders

We are not the kind of people who follow orders from on high, just because they come from on high.

Also, we aren't supporting Sanders because of who he is. We are supporting Sanders because of the policies he supports. Clinton does not support those policies, no matter how many nice things she can get Sanders to say about her.

Clinton would still have to sell herself to the vast swath of Sanders supporters. You can not rely on "who else you gonna vote for?".

[DanTex]

122. Well, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Do they understand how bad a GOP presidency would

be? I'm thinking yes, particularly after Bernie, who they respect, explains it to them.

But if I'm overestimating them, that could be unfortunate.

[jeff47]

125. Do you understand that the status quo is actively hurting them?

"We will hurt you less" is not a winning strategy.

[DanTex]

127. Do they not understand how immeasurably worse things would be under the GOP?

Maybe some of the younger ones have never really seen a GOP presidency in action, and that's where I think Bernie can go a long way towards explaining.

[jeff47]

136. So, no, you do not understand.

When you are drowning, it really doesn't matter if someone throws you a small anchor or a large anchor.

[DanTex]

149. If they believe that it wouldn't be much worse under the GOP, then they are the ones who don't

understand. Bernie certainly understands. It remains to be seen whether Bernie will be able to share his wisdom with his supporters, or whether they are too irrational.

[jeff47]

165. You continuing to say the same thing does not change that you fail to understand.

Maybe a gun analogy? Does it matter if you're shot in the head with a small shotgun or a large shotgun? You're dead either way, even though one is worse.

[DanTex]

177. I am right. Your analogies are silly. Unless you think that most Sanders supporters

are going to suffer comparable to drowning/getting shot in the head if Hillary is president.

The fact is, things for almost all Americans could be either better or worse than they are now. Very few people are so bad off that they couldn't possibly be any worse. A lot of Sanders fans might be melodramatically insisting that on that (despite the fact that they are on average wealthier than Hillary supporters), but once the GOP gets into office they will find out how wrong they were.

[jeff47]

181. They are not nearly as extreme as you pretend

which is why you do not understand, and refuse to try to understand. Instead, you lecture from your relative comfort about how you are right.

I eagerly look forward to your angry denunciation of everyone under 40 when Clinton loses the general. 'Cause you still won't get it, even when it hurts you.

[DanTex]

186. Of course they are. Your analogies are about immediate death.

While I'm sure there are some, the number of people who are going to die within, say, six months of the election if Hillary or the GOP win, but who Bernie is going to somehow save, is very small.

It's absurd that I even have to point this out. People have all sorts of serious struggles, economic, health, violence, justice, etc. but these drastic and inaccurate metaphors are totally useless.

[Dawgs]

182. Congratulations jeff47.

You win DU on this day.

[retrowire]

138. This is literally a "who else you gonna vote for?" kind of statement to my generation. nt

[DanTex]

150. It's a situation where there is one better and one worse alternative.

Here's hoping that your generation understands that better is better than worse, and that Bernie can talk some sense into those who don't.

[retrowire]

153. Bernie's the better. nt

[DanTex]

156. I'm talking about the GE, in the hypothetical situation where it's Hillary vs the GOP.

Which is what the OP was talking about -- Hillary's GE electability.

[dana_b]

146. He may endorse her, if he loses the nomination,

and some may listen to him and vote for her. I think that is very likely. But some won't. They are tired of being told that they are stupid, lazy and don't care. They do pay attention and hear what is said about them. I live with a couple of them and hear what they and their friends say. They are tired of being insulted and then disregarded.

[JPnoodleman]

18. BAH! Haven't you heard, the youngin's are basically worthless trash!!11!eleven!?

The wise, INFINITELY knowing DLC types have said so!

/s

[Nitram]

51. Oh. Look, there goes another straw man!

Can you link to a quote where the DLC said "youngin's are basically worthless trash" or something similar? Or was that just sarcasm?

(actually that should be "youngin's IS basically worthless trash&quot

[JPnoodleman]

68. Jesus Christ! Are you correcting grammar on a post that deliberate?

Seriously though what went through your brain that made you think that was a wise retort? NO SERIOUSLY?!

[link:http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1125327
|http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1125327
]
I'll also cite the tone and tenor of the recent Matthews interview with Hillary.

Also I said "DLC types," not DLC itself. JESUS CHRIST man!

[Nitram]

104. It was a joke, Noodleman, just a joke.

Your grammar was correct, I was just making it incorrect to go with the colloquial "younguns'. That's why the smile.

Your link goes to a statement that belittles people with less money, not young people.

[treestar]

72. It's that childish style of argument

of extreme black and white, if you say it is more subtle than that the young vote gets to determine what the rest of us better so (as they say) or lose than you must hate the young people.

Then by their standards, they must hate the older people. If they are going to argue childishly, that's where they stand.

[book_worm]

19. Bernie absolutely positively cannot win the general election

without enthusiastic support among people of color. Yes, African Americans and Latinos will vote for the Democratic nominee but will they be enthused enough about him to do so in sufficient numbers? Hillary has a much better chance to replicate Obama's success with black voters than Bernie. Her husband has a deep bond with black voters, for example, and was often called "the first black president." He also needs blue collar workers to win--a lot of working stiffs are not going to be happy to hear about his plans to raise taxes when they are already struggling to make it from paycheck to paycheck. Bernie is also going to need people over 29--he isn't going to win with lily white very liberal college students supporting him.

As for people under 29--I think many younger female supporters of Bernie once Hillary is the Democratic nominee will not pass the historic implications of voting for the first female nominated for the presidency by a major party--just as blacks in record numbers supported Obama as a great historic first.

[pinebox]

47. Bernie beats EVERY Republican nominee. Hillary does NOT

Hillary loses to Rubio & Cruz. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/

[mythology]

103. Those are worth pretty much nothing

They don't accurately measure what would happen as the dynamic of a race changes drastically when it's actually one candidate versus another in a real campaign rather than a theoretical race.

Do you really think Sanders' numbers won't change once attack ads against him start airing, once the Republican media machine turns from Clinton to him if he wins the nomination?

[pinebox]

112. That's the new goalpost cry now?

It's flippin' serious and it shouldn't be spun. The truth is, right now, polls indicate she loses.
This isn't theoretical. That is basically a 10 point gap. She will LOSE a general.

[dana_b]

147. oh look! Real proof!

imagine that.

[Tarc]

33. You are forgetting one rather simple thing

If Bernie does not win the nomination, he is going to tell his more stubborn voters to stand down, drop the Hillary hate, and join him in supporting her...just as Hillary did for Obama in 2008 once she conceded.

So are you going to still stand with Bernie when he sides with Hillary, or will you revive the P.U.M.A movement?

That choice is on you.

[pinebox]

48. It doesn't matter

I've said this before.
Millions of Bernie supporters are NOT voting for a Democrat. They are voting for Bernie. Period.

[Tarc]

78. That is what they say now

Just as many Hillary supporters said "Clinton or Bust" during the primaries...and I should know, as I was one of them for a time, til I came to my senses.

Don't project your own shortcomings on those "Millions of Bernie supporters"; I have more faith in in them that they will come around than you apparently do.

[pinebox]

85. No you aren't getting it

They won't. Period.
Go see why Loonix was banned and you'll see what I am saying. Many Bernie supporters aren't Dems, they are Indies, Greens, 3rd party and Republicans. They hate her & see her as part of the problem we face.

She is a weak candidate and you know what, she's flat out wishy washy on every single issue. EVERY. ONE.

Nope they won't.

[Tarc]

172. I really doubt that

People are no longer dim enough to waste votes in large numbers on 3rd-party candidates, not after seeing how they were directly responsible for Dubya's 2000 win.

But if somehow you're right, and if we wind up with a Trump presidency, those people will get the leader that they deserve, according to that de Maistre guy.

Again again, if Bernie is the one to concede, he will be out there actively campaigning for Hillary and for other Democrats up for elections. Bitter Bettys lose their bitterness after a little time.

[jham123]

110. +1

You are correct, they are voting for Bernie and an endorsement to Hillary from Bernie is no magic wand.....they'll just stay home

[cali]

65. Sorry, that does not mean they'll support hillary

And I've said repeatedly I'll vote for her if she's the nominee.

Better corrupt, dishonest neocon Hillary than any of the reactionary batshit pukes.

[2banon]

116. Better corrupt, dishonest neocon Hillary than any of the reactionary batshit pukes.

well since you put it that way... nahhhhhh...

In the G.E. I'll vote Dems down ticket, but I won't be marking an X along side her name. my vote won't matter, cuz California Electoral she'll get anyway regardless of what I want or don't want. That's essentially what's she's banking on as well. She certainly doesn't give a damn about me or my grand daughters for that matter. Her "grandma" schitk doesn't work with me.

[dana_b]

148. I live in California too so I'll do the same

my vote does not matter here. It's a good/bad thing.

[underpants]

96. I agree. Millineals aren't going to vote Repub

and, assuming a Hillary nomination, Bernie asks his people to support her. I don't see any hate by the Bernie crowd anywhere but here on DU (other forums probably are the same).

[pinebox]

113. Again it doesn't matter

They see Hillary as Republican-lite.

[jeff47]

126. "I'll hurt you less" is not a winning strategy.

Clinton's main campaign theme is she will maintain the status quo. The status quo is actively harming everyone 40 and under. And they are well aware of this.

"I'll hurt you less" will not move them.

[artislife]

139. +100000

[EdwardBernays]

34. The cynical vote

Had better be huge, because the optimistic vote is not interested in Hillary. Neither is the anti-corruption vote. Or the anti-lobbying vote. Or the anti-Wall St vote.

It would be fairly ironic if the AA vote selects Hillary who then loses to a racist candidate...

[elias49]

80. No need for the "fairly" modifier, EB

It would be irony gold.

[stonecutter357]

36. .

[SheenaR]

73. I will say this

She would beat Ted Cruz....

That's all I got. Because she isn't beating anyone else and that's depressing if that's the basket everyone wants to put their eggs in.

[KittyWampus]

77. Attacks on young voters has been non-stop? No, they haven't.

[pinebox]

89. Yes they have and here's your proof

#MillennialBillOfRights
Trending at #3 world wide on twitter this very second.

[NurseJackie]

86. LOL!!

The attacks on young voters who support him over Hillary has been non-stop.

[pinebox]

90. Ya it's hilarious isn't it?

Welcome to reality this very second and what's trending #3 world wide on twitter.
#MillennialBillOfRights

/end reality

[Betty Karlson]

220. Thanks for that excellent retort. eom

[pinebox]

221. :)

[LonePirate]

88. Um, what are these attacks agsinst youth voters which you allude to get n your post?

[Enthusiast]

91. You're right, cali.

[AzDar]

93. Astonishing that people don't see this... SO MANY negatives, omg.

[99th_Monkey]

95. Apparently Hillary's more worried about a Bernie win, than she is about the GE or a GOP White House

Not saying it's necessarily true, but it sure looks like that from here.

[jeff47]

128. Like all Third-way Democrats, she thinks "Who else you gonna vote for?" works.

They apparently did not learn from 2014, 2010, 2004, 2002 or 2000.

[99th_Monkey]

140. Oh they "learned" alright.

They've learned that the tawdry tactic of holding progressives' dreams & aspirations for
a more humane society hostage, in order to extort progressive vote through intimidation
and fear, works just fine ... well, until it doesn't, once people see through their lies.

And We the People are definitely WAKING THE FUCK UP... Woot!!!!!

[dana_b]

151. I am so sick of the

expressions: "It's not time for that" "just wait - this election is too important" "do you want a pony too?" "we need to be pragmatic" "you're unrealistic" - EVERY single major campaign season!!! No more!! The time is now for me. I will not be made to feel guilty for NOT voting for her. They should feel guilty for supporting a blatant Wall Street capitalist who votes for war, every time, and puts profits before people. If a Repub wins, it's THEIR fault this time.

[beachbum bob]

102. lol...ok/...lets make sure the younger voters take their naps so they don't throw a tantrum...

is that better??? If younger voters want america ruled by batshit crazy conservatives but throwing a tantrum then THEY will have to live with all the repercussions....as it will most likely negatively effect the rest of THEIR lives...which in the grown world is a VERY LONGTIME.....

[Avalux]

105. I agree, and it's becoming more apparent as time goes on.

She's definitely lost the young people, and they WILL NOT vote for her if she's the nominee. Sure most of us Democrats will hold our noses for Hillary, but the kids don't think that way. There is nothing she can do at this point to win them over as it will be seen for the phony charade it is.

I wrote this in a post earlier, it's relevant to put here:

I had a lengthy conversation with my daughter last night about her generation, the millenials, and why they (at least those she knows in person and on social media), do not like Hillary Clinton, do not like the establishment.

These are smart kids, and they, in many ways are more advanced and worldly than us older people. It is insulting to them to be told they shouldn't try to implement their dreams and instead face reality, it is insulting to them to be told that they cannot change the way things are and go in a different direction. They do not want to be restricted by the old guard - they can see that it isn't working out so well and they want a future. Hillary represents an old school marm to them, a stern older woman who won't tolerate their ideas. Hillary and those in her corner don't hear them and certainly don't respect them.

This young generation loves Bernie because he listens to them and respects them, he tells them there isn't anything we can't do if we all work together. It's an inspiring message, and our young people need to hear it and believe it while they are at a point in their lives where they can be the impetus for change.

[jham123]

115. That's the success of his whole campaign

and exactly the reason he did so well on Monday night despite the pundits counting him out.

I don't think that response is owned entirely by your kids friends....I believe that response is what a lot of us are thinking

[Karmadillo]

106. But at least she can maybe keep the Democratic Socialist out. A small price

to pay for Republican control of all three branches and maintenance of the one percenters' status quo.

[dana_b]

155. exactly. n/t

[KingCharlemagne]

111. I cannot disagree with your analysis, but I think there is still plenty of time

for Hillary to propose policies and legislation that will induce young voters to come out for her. If not free tuition at public colleges and universities (to which Sanders rightly can claim first dibs), she could propose a bold new initiative to forgive existing student loan debt in exchnage for some bold new plan of national service perhaps like the CCC or WPA, tailored to young people just beginning their post-collegiate careers.

Full disclosure: I still have about $6,000 in student loan debt from graduate school. But I'm suggesting this type of initiative on behalf of newer undergrads who are leaving school often with $100,000 in debt.

[jeff47]

134. It won't be believable.

Clinton has changed so many positions to suit the next election that anything she says now will not be believed.

Especially with bad her actual proposals are. Her student loan proposal revolves around lowering the interest rate on student loans. That doesn't reduce debt. Lowering the interest rate makes it possible to take on more debt. So tuition can continue to skyrocket because now students can qualify for $150k instead of $100k.

(Her plan also calls for more federal grants, but the amount of grants she proposes is utterly miniscule compared to the number of students)

[Agnosticsherbet]

114. Should Clinton be nominated, and they choose not to vote, they want what Republicans will give them.

And if Sanders wins the nomination, and Clinton's supporters choose not to vote for him, they want what Republicans will give them.

People who stay at home because their favorite candidate did not win the nomination in the primary do not give a shit about a good government. If the government elected chooses to screw them, they deserve it.

Those of us who go out and vote for best available choice in general election (that will never be a Republican) deserve our concern. They will be the people who do not deserve it.

[DesMoinesDem]

118. Hillary Clinton will never be president.

[CharlotteVale]

120. K&R

[snooper2]

132. Um, if you are talking about random comments on DU, Guess how many fucks are given by young voters

I'll give you once chance for right answer LOL

[liberal N proud]

133. Is there suddenly going to be a cap on voting age

Anyone over 30 can't vote?




A little self righteous with the age thing are you not?

[George II]

137. How has anyone "attacked" young voters? I haven't seen it ANYWHERE either in the media....

...or on DU.

[randome]

161. Neither have I. It's a strange claim.

If youth is more essential than the rest of the country, then surely they will understand the consequences of having a Republican in the Oval Office. My 18 year-old daughters know.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[mrmpa]

143. See my post from the other day......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1124648

I'm not against Hillary Clinton..... [View all]

it's just that I can't see her winning the general election in November.

What will happen, has all ready started. The repugs going on and on about Benghazi, emails, her husband's impeachment, her "crimes", etc. They will repeat this ad nauseum for the next 10 months. People will begin to believe it and will not vote for her because of this. This crap will keep democrat voters away from the polls.

Her response(s) to these attacks by the repugs, I have noticed recently, is a snide smile by her and a dismissal out of hand. But that is not enough, because what the repugs are saying is propaganda that will air in the media and will be believed by the masses.

Debbie Wassermann Schultz and the entire DNC, must get their heads out of their butts and realize that the party will only continue if it can give America a candidate that can unite the masses, particularly the young and bring them to the polls and that is Senator Sanders.

If I can read the repugs for what they are and what they will deliver, why can't the DNC?

Even my 85 year old mother, over dinner tonight said..."she can't win". & my mom in 2008 was a die hard Hillary fan. Mom still likes her, and would give anything to see a woman president in her life time, but thinks it's more important to have a Democrat in the Oval Office.

[amborin]

163. she can't win w/o Indies, either, and they favor Bernie nt

[randome]

167. And when Sanders endorses Clinton, what will they do?

The majority, I think, will support Clinton.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[eridani]

216. Voting is the bare minimum of support

I've convinced some young Sanders supporters to vote for the Dem nominee even if it isn't Sanders. But no way in hell are they going to phonebank, doorknock or donate to her.

[sadoldgirl]

166. You are right, but there is more.

The party makes up maximally 30% of the voters.

Around 40% are unaffiliated, and about 60% seem
to go for Bernie.

After several canvassing trips in my precinct, I was
amazed how many dems told me: anyone but her!

Sure that is only one person's experience, but it
showed me that HRC is not that much beloved in
our own party.

I don't know what will happen, but the party and
TPTB have decided on her or a repug. They don't
care about the people.

If she becomes the nominee, the party will shrink
even more than it has already.

[DrBulldog]

170. According to the recent national polls, she already loses to Cruz!

I wonder what the obsessed Hillary supporters think of that.

[Tarc]

173. We probably think that we're thankful we paid attention in civics class...

...where we learned that the overall popular vote is not how a president is elected...

[Bjorn Against]

203. If you paid attention in civics class you would know how important the popular vote is

While it is true that Presidential elections are ultimately decided by the electoral college, with only a few exceptions the electoral college vote has almost always gone to the popular vote winner. If your strategy is to field an unpopular candidate thinking that the popular vote doesn't matter you have a really bad strategy.

[Tarc]

205. That sure sailed over your head...

A caucus is not a primary, the popular vote does not count for anything in a caucus.

We have many straight up-and-down votes coming up where the popular vote will matter.

[Bjorn Against]

206. You were responding to a post about how Hillary performs against Cruz

The post you were responding to was about the General Election, there are no caucuses in the General Election.

[ismnotwasm]

185. Wait wut?

She needs every vote she can get-- including millennials, PoC, Democrats. Just as anyone else would. What Is happening is Sanders message of "revolution" appeals to a large group of millenials. Hillarys campaign is courting and winning them, but not to the degree Sanders has. DU, however you see politics, because I'm not sure how you've arrived at the conclusion of your OP, is not representative of anything but an snapshot of on-line politics. Which includes a healthy dose, a majority dose, of trash-talking Hillary--also not helpful.

As far as criticism--Sanders supporters, and Sanders campaign--they did this to themselves, without, I might add, decades of right-wing smears that the left now cheery-picks through when it feels like some smacked down Hillary bashing.

I hope to hell nobody thinks Sanders is going to get through the primary season without a lot of vetting, and a lot of criticism, he's in the spotlight now. Unlike you, I believe he has a chance.

[backtomn]

187. For all the talk about the "youth vote"......

.....it rarely changes. The numbers did not even go up appreciably for Obama and were probably down for his re-election. He won based on increasing the black vote and just brought more Dems to the polls.

[lumberjack_jeff]

190. Older voters will turn out to vote against anyone who promises to cut SS.

Younger voters won't turn out unless there's something to vote for, and Hillary hasn't given them one.

The GE turnout will be 15% higher with Sanders in the race.

[Blue_Tires]

191. The funny thing is I could say the exact same thing

about Sanders and just put "minority" in place of "young"

Evidently both camps have some gaps to make up...

[cali]

194. Funny thing is, Hillary will almost certainly be the nominee.

She will lose. Horrible campaigner. The more people see her, the less liked and trusted she is.

[Blue_Tires]

195. I see nothing funny about the Dems losing a presidential race

but that's just me...

[Puglover]

198. Agreed Cali.

And for the 90th time I hope to hell I am wrong. She will lose to Rubio.

Another Clinton in the WH stirs up about as much enthusiasm as a dead flash light battery.

[cali]

218. Hey, Pug. Certainly hope we're both wrong.

[OldHippieChick]

197. I continue to be so saddened by those

who will not vote for the Democratic nominee if it's not their candidate. What children you are!! You MUST consider the Supreme Court. I realize this might mean holding your nose, but you have got to vote for the candidate or AT THE VERY LEAST vote down ballot for ever Democrat. No matter who wins, they cannot accomplish anything w/ a Repuke Congress. It will continue as it has been for 8 years and we will very likely have vacancies on the Supreme Court. Wake up and grow up. Abortion, gay marriage, Citizen's United -- ALL are on the line. Please stop being so bull-headed. You cannot stay home. That will only take us further backwards.

[still_one]

201. Guess what, Sander's cannot win a general election without Clinton supporters

[MFM008]

202. WHY cant people just say

They will vote for the nominee? Im supporting HRC but if Sanders is the nominee I will vote for him. Do we want Trump--Rubio--Cruz in the Oval office? This election is for the fate of the planet itself, now PONDER that statement. Sure you may think some other democrat may be better but ANY democrat is better that a republican. Nothing less than our survival as a species depends on it. So quit the petty squabbling .

[RBInMaine]

204. And if they choose not to vote they are being STUPID LAZY PURIST ASSHOLES!

[Lorien]

211. Plus no candidate has ever won the Presidency with an unfavorable rating

this high: http://www.gallup.com/poll/185324/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating-one-worst.aspx