2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhere did the meme that POC are anti-Left even start?
That would be news to the many, many POC who spend their lives on the Left themselves.
And the many who work side by side with dedicated left allies in every struggle for any form of justice.
And it contradicts the polls that show, on the vast majority of issues, POC voters take positions on the issues that are well to the left of most whites.
Obviously, like most folks in general, POC want to improve their standard of living, get a better job(contrary to racist myth, most POC are employed), buy a home, get a decent car and things like that. But that doesn't mean POC don't, in general, believe the system isn't rigged in favor of the current rich(most of whom are white, since race privilege and class privilege intertwine) and don't care about economic justice as well as the fight against institutional racism.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Generally among peoples for whom their sense of Nationhood or Ethnic folk community is important, conservatism is somewhat there as a kind of cultural and philosophical norm.
This however is not GOP Conservatism but a kind of traditionalist and skepticism to change.
My family deeply identifies with our Gaelic roots, And indeed many of us even took to speaking specifically a kind of pidgeon Manx Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic language in the home. While very much Labor-Lefties, faith, what some call "Family Values," ect enjoy great primacy. Granted we don't fall under the PoC umbrella but in general national identity communities are often skeptical of change.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)POC used to to be more anti-gay and anti-reproductive choice, but this has changed.
Thanks for the informative post, btw.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Though its somewhat best exemplified by the Lefts troubles with rural white underclass it likely applies to other groups too. That "Whats the matter with Kansas?" "Why are rural people so stupid?" mentality that emerges do to a failure of cultural understanding.
Some on the Left find that folkish identity and sensibilities to be outdated, backwards, and well uneducated and sometimes chastise aspects of their culture for "making them dumb." like "Their guns and their God!" or with Black America its "The Churches make them homophobic!" ect or the "I'm a citizen of EARTH!"/"I belong to the HUMAN RACE!" types CAN come off as condescending.
And thank you. I try. ^_^
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Can you accept the usage in that context?
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Just a guess because I do not think I have had any exposure to that "meme" before.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Maybe an OP from my list of ignored rightwingers. I do not see anything such as this OP mentions.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)only hop they feel they have. Preachers especially those of the Baptist and Catholic religions tend to be conservative and pass those values down to their congregations since it helps to keep them in power.
Just my take on it.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... of syndromes and labeled LIVs (just this today) by intimation.
The poor, blacks, Hispanics, gays and women all support the very person who has a good and imperfect left leaning resume and now is being marginalized by mostly well off white males and the young.
That's were this meme comes from...
Response to uponit7771 (Reply #6)
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Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)choie
(4,111 posts)Is being marginalized.... Are you for real?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Nothing for you to be offended at in any of it.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Case in point:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251687330
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Sanders supporters denounced that OP. Some of us tried to get it locked.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)even compared to those that denounced that OP in the thread.
The numbers don't compare.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)The issue is that HRC has never been there on anti-oppression issues(other than the most bland, economic-royalist, Sheryl Sandberg form of feminism).
Obviously, everyone gets to back whoever they want.
But it insults no one to point out that the candidate they currently support hasn't really ever been on their side.
I'm a union member, and I'm fine with people pointing it out that a lot of unions sell out their members when they back the least-progressive candidate in a Democratic primary(that's in reference to all levels of electoral politics, btw).
I'm a white dude, and I'm fine with people pointing out that white folks who vote Republican generally vote against their own interests.
I'm going to be retired in a month, and I'm fine with people saying that retired folks tend to screw themselves over when they vote for people like Reagan and either Bush(as most of those folks have).
And obviously, none of the groups I'm in has a history of pain comparable to that of AA people and POC in general, so please don't think I'm making THAT comparison. Give me a little credit for not being a total idiot, ok? A partial idiot on Tuesdays and Thursdays but not total.
Not everything is a collective attack. Sometimes critique is just a cigar.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)That racist assumption has NOT been put to rest.
Response to Empowerer (Reply #19)
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Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)And that meme still gets heavy circulation on Twitter, FWIW...
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Trump still gets heavy circulation there too, y'know.
That one stupid post doesn't justify hostility to Bernie as a candidate. You know perfectly well HE doesn't feel that way.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)it's toward his zealots, as I said...
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It was zealotry to ever attack Bernie on race, when he had no weaknesses in his actual record on that issue, OR on LGBTQ rights, or on feminism. And to keep attacking Bernie on that when he had put the issue of not including institutional racism in the stump speech to rest.
And it was zealotry to pretend that "social justice" and "economic justice" were struggles that could only be at odds with each other, when they never have been.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and as far as I can tell, black pundits are mostly getting smeared from one direction...
Couple of examples -- Check out some of the conversations on Ta-Nehisi Coates' TL starting around Jan. 20:
https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/with_replies
Or check out Imani Gandy pretty much any day:
https://twitter.com/AngryBlackLady/with_replies
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)because a good number of us haven't yet "felt the Bern". I don't see that changing for me, at least.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)You can make any choice you want...fine...but you can't expect people to defer to HRC just to prove they aren't disrespecting YOU.
She has had AA and POC support...but other than schmoozing and a facility for retail politics, she hasn't actually done much, from what we can see, to actually earn your support. And there have been long periods of her public life when she was actually working against you(the whole DLC project-which was basically put together to drive the Rainbow Coalition away and distance the party from voters of color).
Can you at least understand why some folks might be a little bit puzzled as to why you'd cut her so much slack?
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)Not supporting a particular Democratic candidate does not mean that we're "anti-left."
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But an argument has emerged here recently that somehow POC aren't ever a significant part of the Left, and that the Left, in general, hasn't been there on the issue of fighting racism.
I think you'd have to concede the point, if nothing else, that there have never been any situations in which centrists were better allies in the anti-racist struggles than people on the left were.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Typically it has been white liberals who have this condescending, paternalistic attitude towards blacks. They know what's best for us. They know who we should vote for, how we should feel. Oh, and my favorite: Only THEY know what is and what is not racist and can tell POC what that is.
If you're relating this to the Sanders' situation, this is only my view, of course, but there is a large segment of the black electorate that does not agree with Sanders' argument that economic justice must be achieved before racial justice can ever be attained. Through POC may agree that we need economic justice, we hold that he falls short on understanding just how central race is. Class and economic considerations do not trump race. This is a point that Sanders and his followers don't seem to understand...or they may be pretending not to understand.
That may be what's turning POC off.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It's not like any of us is Hubert Humphrey helping LBJ jerk the Mississippi Freedom Democrats around during the '64 Democratic Convention(refusing to offer them any more than a trivial two seats).
And HRC is a white liberal(or at least she's pretending to be liberal THIS week). So why trust her more than him? Especially since she spent a large part of her career pushing the Democratic Party to leave POC out in the cold and to leave collective slurs against POC(such as the right-wing equation of blackness with criminality, out of wedlock births, and welfare fraud)unchallenged...or worse, to actually embrace policies that are BASED on those slurs?
And, with respect(and I mean "with respect" you've simply got Bernie wrong on race. He has never said that fighting racism had to take a backseat to fighting against economic injustice. What he said was that, to truly defeat racism and other forms of bigotry, we need to defeat economic injustice...that we can win some victories against bigotry before economic injustice is defeated, that we need to keep fighting racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, ethnic/religious hatred, that we will keep fighting it, but that we can't ultimately end any of those things without ending economic insecurity, want, and the fear of want, because those who benefit from those three things will always keep hatred alive in order to defend themselves.
This is the awareness that Dr. King worked from at the end of his own days, that to end racism, to liberate POC, we need to liberate the human race from greed(and from war).
Do you think MLK put race on the back-burner when he said that?
Racism matters to Bernie, and to his supporters, as much as any other issue.
We are anti-racists, we join you in whatever way we can in that fight. And we understand that fighting racism is the number-one thing with you. None of us(and especially the growing numbers of POC who now back Bernie)would ever tell you to back off on that.
I'd like to see a dialogue here about how trust can be established on this.
These are two groups(POC and Bernie supporters, growing numbers of whom are POC) who are essentially united on the issues. We agree with each other probably 99.5% of the time.
We are natural allies in the fight for a just world.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)The sixties were replete with them, and the abysmal "Occupy" movement reinvigorated some of those historical enmities.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I haven't heard this at all.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)That's probably the first crack in the rupture that's happened off and on between white progressivism and people of color. And it's a pretty straight line from Watson through LaFollette to Coughlin and Long, then to Wallace. Basically, there's been a long history of white progressives blaming African Americans for not supporting a populism that inevitably becomes whites-only.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And none of us ever defended Coughlin or Wallace(it was the left who FOUGHT Wallace...the centrists did nothing but appease him).
Do you have any record of LaFollette attacking AA voters?
TheBlackAdder
(28,208 posts).
Fox Kicks Off Black History Month By Bashing Black Voters As 'Slaves' To The 'Democrat' Party
http://crooksandliars.com/2016/02/fox-kicks-black-history-month-bashing
.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)They probably expect Ben Carson to shine their hosts' shoes before he gets interviewed.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)mmonk
(52,589 posts)by the Democrats and their media and Think Tanks.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Hell's bells, you could watch it unfold in real time right here a few months ago.