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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:08 PM Feb 2016

Where did the meme that POC are anti-Left even start?

That would be news to the many, many POC who spend their lives on the Left themselves.

And the many who work side by side with dedicated left allies in every struggle for any form of justice.

And it contradicts the polls that show, on the vast majority of issues, POC voters take positions on the issues that are well to the left of most whites.

Obviously, like most folks in general, POC want to improve their standard of living, get a better job(contrary to racist myth, most POC are employed), buy a home, get a decent car and things like that. But that doesn't mean POC don't, in general, believe the system isn't rigged in favor of the current rich(most of whom are white, since race privilege and class privilege intertwine) and don't care about economic justice as well as the fight against institutional racism.

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Where did the meme that POC are anti-Left even start? (Original Post) Ken Burch Feb 2016 OP
Generally conservatism is common in folk communities? JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #1
Social conservatism was once common, especially conservatism on family structure issues. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #2
As an additional note, SOME lefty people can rub traditional peoples the wrong way JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #12
Agreed. That has always been a bit of a problem. n/t. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #13
When did everything someone once said on the internet get labeled a "meme"? PeaceNikki Feb 2016 #3
Don't know...I was using it as a shorthand for "talking point" or "factoid" or "canard". Ken Burch Feb 2016 #7
It's just silly. It's so grossly overused/misused here on DU. PeaceNikki Feb 2016 #11
This OP? PowerToThePeople Feb 2016 #4
Link inside to a lot of this meme being intimated amongs the left uponit7771 Feb 2016 #10
Uh PowerToThePeople Feb 2016 #14
I think it has to do with religion. Oppressed people are often deeply religious since that is the Live and Learn Feb 2016 #5
When we didn't support far left candidates in large numbers and after we were labeled victims of ... uponit7771 Feb 2016 #6
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2016 #26
Thanks so much because I just can't! Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #36
Aw poor Hillary Clinton choie Feb 2016 #41
Posted to for later. eom. 1StrongBlackMan Feb 2016 #8
This is a thread about false claims regarding AA voters. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #15
Probably the same place the memes about "Stockholm syndrome" came from Blue_Tires Feb 2016 #9
That was put to rest months ago. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #16
But look at how many Sanders supporters rec'd that OP ... 1StrongBlackMan Feb 2016 #17
That was months ago and it goes without saying now that Sanders people reject that comparison. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #24
Just yesterday a BS supporter here blamed lack of AA support for Bernie on the Stockholm Syndrome Empowerer Feb 2016 #19
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2016 #27
But a lot of Sanders fans agreed with it, too Blue_Tires Feb 2016 #22
We can't be held responsible for Twitter. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #25
My hostility isn't towards Sanders Blue_Tires Feb 2016 #30
equal zealotry on both sides. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #32
I'm just calling it as I see it on twitter Blue_Tires Feb 2016 #43
Many Sanders supporters have been unbelievably condescending and arrogant towards POC Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #37
Nobody is condescending to you...people are trying to persuade you. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #38
I wasn't aware there was any such meme Empowerer Feb 2016 #18
I wasn't saying it was. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #33
I think this is a fair assessment. There are many POC who distrust white liberals in particular. Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #39
Bernie and his supporters are white leftists, though, not white liberals. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #42
Never? OilemFirchen Feb 2016 #40
Who said this? gollygee Feb 2016 #20
Well, if you're actually interested, I'd go back to the populist leader Thomas Watson in Georgia Recursion Feb 2016 #21
Nobody on the left today defends Thomas Watson(nobody has since Debs emerged, at the least) Ken Burch Feb 2016 #31
Well, we know it wasn't from these jerks! TheBlackAdder Feb 2016 #23
Well, that's Fox, isn't it? Ken Burch Feb 2016 #34
Bookmarking. nt. NCTraveler Feb 2016 #28
2 Republicans which was then picked up mmonk Feb 2016 #29
In a dark-money funded boiler-room operation. hifiguy Feb 2016 #35

JPnoodleman

(454 posts)
1. Generally conservatism is common in folk communities?
Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:15 PM
Feb 2016

Generally among peoples for whom their sense of Nationhood or Ethnic folk community is important, conservatism is somewhat there as a kind of cultural and philosophical norm.

This however is not GOP Conservatism but a kind of traditionalist and skepticism to change.

My family deeply identifies with our Gaelic roots, And indeed many of us even took to speaking specifically a kind of pidgeon Manx Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic language in the home. While very much Labor-Lefties, faith, what some call "Family Values," ect enjoy great primacy. Granted we don't fall under the PoC umbrella but in general national identity communities are often skeptical of change.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
2. Social conservatism was once common, especially conservatism on family structure issues.
Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:18 PM
Feb 2016

POC used to to be more anti-gay and anti-reproductive choice, but this has changed.

Thanks for the informative post, btw.

JPnoodleman

(454 posts)
12. As an additional note, SOME lefty people can rub traditional peoples the wrong way
Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:28 PM
Feb 2016

Though its somewhat best exemplified by the Lefts troubles with rural white underclass it likely applies to other groups too. That "Whats the matter with Kansas?" "Why are rural people so stupid?" mentality that emerges do to a failure of cultural understanding.

Some on the Left find that folkish identity and sensibilities to be outdated, backwards, and well uneducated and sometimes chastise aspects of their culture for "making them dumb." like "Their guns and their God!" or with Black America its "The Churches make them homophobic!" ect or the "I'm a citizen of EARTH!"/"I belong to the HUMAN RACE!" types CAN come off as condescending.

And thank you. I try. ^_^

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
7. Don't know...I was using it as a shorthand for "talking point" or "factoid" or "canard".
Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:24 PM
Feb 2016

Can you accept the usage in that context?

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
5. I think it has to do with religion. Oppressed people are often deeply religious since that is the
Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:22 PM
Feb 2016

only hop they feel they have. Preachers especially those of the Baptist and Catholic religions tend to be conservative and pass those values down to their congregations since it helps to keep them in power.

Just my take on it.

uponit7771

(90,347 posts)
6. When we didn't support far left candidates in large numbers and after we were labeled victims of ...
Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:23 PM
Feb 2016

... of syndromes and labeled LIVs (just this today) by intimation.

The poor, blacks, Hispanics, gays and women all support the very person who has a good and imperfect left leaning resume and now is being marginalized by mostly well off white males and the young.

That's were this meme comes from...

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #6)

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
15. This is a thread about false claims regarding AA voters.
Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:43 PM
Feb 2016

Nothing for you to be offended at in any of it.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
16. That was put to rest months ago.
Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:45 PM
Feb 2016

Sanders supporters denounced that OP. Some of us tried to get it locked.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
17. But look at how many Sanders supporters rec'd that OP ...
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:34 AM
Feb 2016

even compared to those that denounced that OP in the thread.

The numbers don't compare.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
24. That was months ago and it goes without saying now that Sanders people reject that comparison.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:51 PM
Feb 2016

The issue is that HRC has never been there on anti-oppression issues(other than the most bland, economic-royalist, Sheryl Sandberg form of feminism).

Obviously, everyone gets to back whoever they want.

But it insults no one to point out that the candidate they currently support hasn't really ever been on their side.

I'm a union member, and I'm fine with people pointing it out that a lot of unions sell out their members when they back the least-progressive candidate in a Democratic primary(that's in reference to all levels of electoral politics, btw).

I'm a white dude, and I'm fine with people pointing out that white folks who vote Republican generally vote against their own interests.

I'm going to be retired in a month, and I'm fine with people saying that retired folks tend to screw themselves over when they vote for people like Reagan and either Bush(as most of those folks have).

And obviously, none of the groups I'm in has a history of pain comparable to that of AA people and POC in general, so please don't think I'm making THAT comparison. Give me a little credit for not being a total idiot, ok? A partial idiot on Tuesdays and Thursdays but not total.

Not everything is a collective attack. Sometimes critique is just a cigar.



Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
19. Just yesterday a BS supporter here blamed lack of AA support for Bernie on the Stockholm Syndrome
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:42 AM
Feb 2016

That racist assumption has NOT been put to rest.

Response to Empowerer (Reply #19)

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
22. But a lot of Sanders fans agreed with it, too
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 11:41 AM
Feb 2016

And that meme still gets heavy circulation on Twitter, FWIW...

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
25. We can't be held responsible for Twitter.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:52 PM
Feb 2016

Trump still gets heavy circulation there too, y'know.

That one stupid post doesn't justify hostility to Bernie as a candidate. You know perfectly well HE doesn't feel that way.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
32. equal zealotry on both sides.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:26 PM
Feb 2016

It was zealotry to ever attack Bernie on race, when he had no weaknesses in his actual record on that issue, OR on LGBTQ rights, or on feminism. And to keep attacking Bernie on that when he had put the issue of not including institutional racism in the stump speech to rest.

And it was zealotry to pretend that "social justice" and "economic justice" were struggles that could only be at odds with each other, when they never have been.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
43. I'm just calling it as I see it on twitter
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:57 PM
Feb 2016

and as far as I can tell, black pundits are mostly getting smeared from one direction...

Couple of examples -- Check out some of the conversations on Ta-Nehisi Coates' TL starting around Jan. 20:
https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/with_replies

Or check out Imani Gandy pretty much any day:
https://twitter.com/AngryBlackLady/with_replies

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
37. Many Sanders supporters have been unbelievably condescending and arrogant towards POC
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:35 PM
Feb 2016

because a good number of us haven't yet "felt the Bern". I don't see that changing for me, at least.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
38. Nobody is condescending to you...people are trying to persuade you.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:40 PM
Feb 2016

You can make any choice you want...fine...but you can't expect people to defer to HRC just to prove they aren't disrespecting YOU.

She has had AA and POC support...but other than schmoozing and a facility for retail politics, she hasn't actually done much, from what we can see, to actually earn your support. And there have been long periods of her public life when she was actually working against you(the whole DLC project-which was basically put together to drive the Rainbow Coalition away and distance the party from voters of color).

Can you at least understand why some folks might be a little bit puzzled as to why you'd cut her so much slack?

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
18. I wasn't aware there was any such meme
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:40 AM
Feb 2016

Not supporting a particular Democratic candidate does not mean that we're "anti-left."

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
33. I wasn't saying it was.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:28 PM
Feb 2016

But an argument has emerged here recently that somehow POC aren't ever a significant part of the Left, and that the Left, in general, hasn't been there on the issue of fighting racism.

I think you'd have to concede the point, if nothing else, that there have never been any situations in which centrists were better allies in the anti-racist struggles than people on the left were.

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
39. I think this is a fair assessment. There are many POC who distrust white liberals in particular.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:41 PM
Feb 2016

Typically it has been white liberals who have this condescending, paternalistic attitude towards blacks. They know what's best for us. They know who we should vote for, how we should feel. Oh, and my favorite: Only THEY know what is and what is not racist and can tell POC what that is.

If you're relating this to the Sanders' situation, this is only my view, of course, but there is a large segment of the black electorate that does not agree with Sanders' argument that economic justice must be achieved before racial justice can ever be attained. Through POC may agree that we need economic justice, we hold that he falls short on understanding just how central race is. Class and economic considerations do not trump race. This is a point that Sanders and his followers don't seem to understand...or they may be pretending not to understand.

That may be what's turning POC off.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
42. Bernie and his supporters are white leftists, though, not white liberals.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:56 PM
Feb 2016

It's not like any of us is Hubert Humphrey helping LBJ jerk the Mississippi Freedom Democrats around during the '64 Democratic Convention(refusing to offer them any more than a trivial two seats).

And HRC is a white liberal(or at least she's pretending to be liberal THIS week). So why trust her more than him? Especially since she spent a large part of her career pushing the Democratic Party to leave POC out in the cold and to leave collective slurs against POC(such as the right-wing equation of blackness with criminality, out of wedlock births, and welfare fraud)unchallenged...or worse, to actually embrace policies that are BASED on those slurs?

And, with respect(and I mean "with respect&quot you've simply got Bernie wrong on race. He has never said that fighting racism had to take a backseat to fighting against economic injustice. What he said was that, to truly defeat racism and other forms of bigotry, we need to defeat economic injustice...that we can win some victories against bigotry before economic injustice is defeated, that we need to keep fighting racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, ethnic/religious hatred, that we will keep fighting it, but that we can't ultimately end any of those things without ending economic insecurity, want, and the fear of want, because those who benefit from those three things will always keep hatred alive in order to defend themselves.

This is the awareness that Dr. King worked from at the end of his own days, that to end racism, to liberate POC, we need to liberate the human race from greed(and from war).

Do you think MLK put race on the back-burner when he said that?

Racism matters to Bernie, and to his supporters, as much as any other issue.

We are anti-racists, we join you in whatever way we can in that fight. And we understand that fighting racism is the number-one thing with you. None of us(and especially the growing numbers of POC who now back Bernie)would ever tell you to back off on that.

I'd like to see a dialogue here about how trust can be established on this.

These are two groups(POC and Bernie supporters, growing numbers of whom are POC) who are essentially united on the issues. We agree with each other probably 99.5% of the time.

We are natural allies in the fight for a just world.

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
40. Never?
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:50 PM
Feb 2016

The sixties were replete with them, and the abysmal "Occupy" movement reinvigorated some of those historical enmities.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
21. Well, if you're actually interested, I'd go back to the populist leader Thomas Watson in Georgia
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 09:05 AM
Feb 2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_E._Watson

That's probably the first crack in the rupture that's happened off and on between white progressivism and people of color. And it's a pretty straight line from Watson through LaFollette to Coughlin and Long, then to Wallace. Basically, there's been a long history of white progressives blaming African Americans for not supporting a populism that inevitably becomes whites-only.
 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
31. Nobody on the left today defends Thomas Watson(nobody has since Debs emerged, at the least)
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:23 PM
Feb 2016

And none of us ever defended Coughlin or Wallace(it was the left who FOUGHT Wallace...the centrists did nothing but appease him).

Do you have any record of LaFollette attacking AA voters?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
34. Well, that's Fox, isn't it?
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:30 PM
Feb 2016

They probably expect Ben Carson to shine their hosts' shoes before he gets interviewed.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
35. In a dark-money funded boiler-room operation.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:32 PM
Feb 2016

Hell's bells, you could watch it unfold in real time right here a few months ago.

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