2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHow can Bernie ever hope to match the record of Hillary and her foreign policy advisers?
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/why-isnt-hillarys-hawkishness-a-dealbreaker/433887/Why Isn't Bernie Sanders's Superior Foreign-Policy Judgment a Decisive Edge?
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Lets quickly review the consequences of the Iraq War that Hillary Clinton favored:
The rise of ISIS.
Hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis.
Roughly 4,500 dead American soldiers.
Tens of thousands of Americans wounded.
$6 trillion in costs.
Heres what Sanders said when he presciently opposed that same war:
Mr. Speaker, in the brief time I have, let me give five reasons why I am opposed to giving the President a blank check to launch a unilateral invasion and occupation of Iraq and why I will vote against this resolution.
One, I have not heard any estimates of how many young American men and women might die in such a war or how many tens of thousands of women and children in Iraq might also be killed. As a caring Nation, we should do everything we can to prevent the horrible suffering that a war will cause. War must be the last recourse in international relations, not the first. Second, I am deeply concerned about the precedent that a unilateral invasion of Iraq could establish in terms of international law and the role of the United Nations. If President Bush believes that the U.S. can go to war at any time against any nation, what moral or legal objection could our government raise if another country chose to do the same thing?
Third, the United States is now involved in a very difficult war against international terrorism as we learned tragically on September 11. We are opposed by Osama bin Laden and religious fanatics who are prepared to engage in a kind of warfare that we have never experienced before. I agree with Brent Scowcroft, Republican former National Security Advisor for President George Bush, Sr., who stated, An attack on Iraq at this time would seriously jeopardize, if not destroy, the global counterterrorist campaign we have undertaken.
Fourth, at a time when this country has a $6 trillion national debt and a growing deficit, we should be clear that a war and a long-term American occupation ofIraq could be extremely expensive.
Fifth, I am concerned about the problems of so-called unintended consequences. Who will govern Iraq when Saddam Hussein is removed and what role will the U.S. play in ensuing a civil war that could develop in that country? Will moderate governments in the region who have large Islamic fundamentalist populations be overthrown and replaced by extremists? Will the bloody conflict between Israel and the Palestinian Authority be exacerbated? And these are just a few of the questions that remain unanswered.
This isnt hard. Sanders has much better foreign-policy judgment than Hillary Clinton. You could hardly make up a more stark illustration. They were on different sides of the most consequential and disastrous war since Vietnam. Yet this difference is dismissed as if it amounts to no more than an afterthought in most comparisons.
more...
djean111
(14,255 posts)As far as I can tell, Hillary seems to be getting her foreign policy direction from folks like Kissinger and the MIC.
No thanks.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)PatrickforO
(14,576 posts)to simply starve the 'useless eaters.'
Now, this doesn't mean Clinton advocates starving people - I'm not saying that.
But I am saying she's not doing herself any favors hanging with this crowd.
But then, they are all in the top 1/10 of 1%. Could it be that such wealth corrupts? Could it be that desire to keep wealth and gain more wealth chases away common decency? Empathy? Concern for the plight of our fellow humans. Does Clinton know, for instance, that 868 million people are hungry, dying because they don't have enough food? Because the commodity machinations of Wall Street, for the sake of more profits to line the pockets of a few, has very much created this problem. Yet Clinton's biggest donors are the slithering snakes on Wall Street.
A picture is worth a thousand words, and this one makes me wonder about many things.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Russian Federation over Ukraine and the Crimea. Zbig's NeoLiberal Russophobic regime changers at State and the White House were chomping at the bit to get their war on. It fell to Kissinger to warn them that the RF was and is a world- and nuclear power with a legitimate sphere of influence. I still chuckle at the memory - Kissinger doing his part to avert global nuclear Armageddon.
PatrickforO
(14,576 posts)weapon sights. Instead of turning their head away as they depress the trigger and saying, "If Allah wills it..." the Russians adjust for windage and aim as well as we.
And, they have nukes just like we do.
War with Russia...BAD idea.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)the Universe of homo sapiens is really such a bad idea after all.
PatrickforO
(14,576 posts)be said that if we went extinct ALL OTHER LIFE ON THE PLANET would actually be BETTER OFF.
That's a pretty scathing indictment, and I wish it wasn't true. But it is. We'd be a truly worthless species except for those millions that are fighting our descent into oblivion, trying to preserve and protect the earth and impose peace, economic and social justice.
But to do that, we need to end capitalism. Not entrepreneurship, small business, employee owned coops and so on, you understand - I can definitely uphold those things. But we've got to get rid of this neoliberal/neoconservative colonialist, exploitative, world destroying version of capitalism. It is unsustainable and has created a few million billionaire parasites that prey on the rest of us.
That has to end.
Peregrine Took
(7,414 posts)CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)She is not unintelligent, however her rationale for her decisions is always something less than objective... Think self absorbed... Narcissist.
tokenlib
(4,186 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)peacebird
(14,195 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)No candidate can go it alone but Bernie has already demonstrated that he makes better decisions, her support of the worst foreign policy disaster in US history demonstrated that she can't be trusted.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)selling hundreds of millions in weapons to nations with EXTREMELY POOR civil rights records...
though in fairness to Hillary she was only REALLY likely to do that for countries with poor human rights records if they also donated millions to the Clinton Foundation... so that was shrewd... for her personally... for America... not so much.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)Iraq war vote.
Drops mike....
karynnj
(59,503 posts)"Hillary, in 2008, you said (or implied) that Obama lacked foreign policy experience -- but - as Bernie will - he nominated a good Secretary of State and other good people for his national security team.
This is why vision and judgement is more important that expertise.
farleftlib
(2,125 posts)The way the military contractors droolingly lined up to ride the gravy train, makes me wonder if this mess really was all that unintended. That's the really scary thing about those on both sides of the aisle that rushed in to support the invasion. Bernie was really the only one who knew?
The taxpayers paid to tear it down, and we paid to build it back up again: rinse and repeat. And the loss of life and limb on both sides...
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)22 other senators and 150 or so representatives knew and voted against it.
Weapons inspectors and every expert not in on the drive to war knew and warned. The foreign press covered this extensively. It was easy to know a) no WMD, b) neocon plan for it regardless, c) so what even if WMD, it's an unprovoked war of aggression that will d) cause untold suffering and the breakup of the region into what we see today.
15 million protesters worldwide on Feb. 15, 2003 knew, including half a million in New York. Majorities in global polling knew. The majority of the Turkish parliament who voted against taking part knew.
No excuses, no bullshit about golly gee well I had to believe the president, what choice did I have?
The Bush mob and the neocons planned, schemed, lied, and executed the war of aggression. Three key figures outside the direct circle of perpetrators whose declarations of assent was important in facilitating and selling this greatest of all 21st century crimes were Colin Powell, John Kerry (kills me to say it) and the former first lady, "liberal" leader and junior senator from New York, the 9/11 state.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)She at State put her thumb on the scale assisting the removal of their left-of-center leader, her buddy Lanny Davis lobbying for the rightwing usurpers, the consequences including a bloody aftermath.
She plotted against Pres Obama's Syrian policy behind his back with Panetta and Patraeus, giving an interview to The Atlantic saying Pres Obama is responsible for the rise of ISIS because he rejected their recommendations to arm what ultimately turned out to be ISIS. Derp.
In her newly released emails, she dissed Joe Biden's diplomacy describing it as "a Disney ride with dips and spins."
Clinton supporters tout her foreign policy experience as a plus, but it is that very experience exercising horrible judgment that disqualifies her from getting anywhere near the levers of government.
Uncle Joe
(58,364 posts)which in turn caused desperate parents to send their children fleeing north into the U.S. to escape murder and rape, Hillary advocated sending them back.
Clinton said the main reason minors are coming is to escape violence in their home countries, predominantly Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala.
Amanpour asked if that meant they should be able to remain in the United States, since it is safer.
"Well -- it may be safer but that's not the answer," Clinton replied.
Instead, Clinton said the United States should do more to deal with violence in the region, including by providing more border security in southern Mexico.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/18/hillary-clinton-immigration_n_5507630.html
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)OMG how could I have forgotten that?
She's Dick Cheney in a pantsuit. Her foreign policy proclivities scare the crap out of me and on that I oppose her candidacy vehemently.
amborin
(16,631 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)I didn't understand it in 2004 and I understand it even less now when all the results are in.
That vote should disqualify anyone from the democratic primary.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)and call for "better mental health treatment" but ignore their own role in the suicide rate among veterans of these 2 wars.
I would have respect for a candidate who said "I was wrong and I'm sorry. My mistakes have taught me a lot about what not to do and how they can be rectified." But political rules to never admit to being wrong, and never apologize for the foreseeable unintended consequences prevent them from showing remorse.
It goes a long way toward explaining why people hold most politicians in such low esteem. Hillary Clinton living down to expectations as she boasts about her FP record is not a winning strategy.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)Vinca
(50,273 posts)The only action I can cite while she was Senator was the Iraq vote and we know how that went. I know she traveled all over the place while Secretary of State, but I don't recall any results. Look at what John Kerry has accomplished during his short term so far and compare it with Hillary. Is the qualified just because she's Hillary and it's her turn?
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)Bernie he is the one that has been in Congress for 25 years with nothing to show for it. ZIP NADA!!
Vinca
(50,273 posts)It was probably one of the most important pieces of legislation in the past few years and he managed to get it through a Republican Congress. He has a long list of accomplishments. Someone posted it on another thread. I'll try to find it again for you.l
bvar22
(39,909 posts)the little bombs that keep on blowing the arms off of children YEARS after any conflict ends.
She was also instrumental in the destruction of Libya, the most advanced country in North Africa, but not anymore.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)then Hillary likes Cluster Bombs.
Goose, Gander
jfern
(5,204 posts)that lead to the creation of ISIS. She totally has him beat there.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)On October 10, 2002, Sanders voted against the Iraq AUMF, but on the same day, he voted to fund the Defense Department in fiscal year 2003:
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Mrs. Clinton voted to support Smirk. Which is worse?
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)and one hasn't.
indigoth
(137 posts)Much like tires on a car, you can chose NOT to buy tires. Once you get a flat, your choice is gone and you do what you can to make the best of things. This is exactly what Sanders did. Once the decision was made by the majority, he did what he could to make the best of things.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)neverforget
(9,436 posts)dinkytron
(568 posts)gyroscope
(1,443 posts)If you like to see more of your tax dollars going to line the pockets of defense contractors,
you know which candidate to vote for (the one who takes money from the defense industry).
sus453
(164 posts)inside the Obama administration regarding foreign policy, one very hawkish pushed by Hillary Clinton and one less war-like headed by Joe Biden. I wonder if we'd be in such a mess had there been a different Secretary of State.
DrBulldog
(841 posts)In fact, she brags about it in her book. Result: thousands of young children fleeing Honduras for their lives, riding alone atop freight trains running through Mexico to the U.S. border. Her unchallenged actions completely destabilized that country into chaos.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)was a Goldwater Girl, her idol was advocating nuking southeast Asians.
PatrickforO
(14,576 posts)fleeing the carnage of war is better than millions becoming cinders in a nuclear conflagration."
"But," PatrickforO continued, "wouldn't it be better to advocate peace and put policies in place that encourage social and economic justice."
Cue the F35 Lightning which flies over, jet engines screaming, effectively drowning out further comment...
'I guess we don't want no peace,' PatrickforO thought sadly as he gazed up into the sky at the receding jet. 'We'd rather spend our tax money on a trillion dollar boondoggle, wouldn't we...oh, fuck it. Let's nuke 'em!'
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)more merciful.
Yours is a great response and deserves to be its own OP.
Z_California
(650 posts)Oh it's more complicated than that, you wouldn't understand.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)"boots on the ground" in Syria. Iran is Syria's worst enemy.
He now claims he never said that but all the millions who watched the debate heard him say it.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)At least Sanders can get a solid adviser, Hillary was the adviser. No thanks.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)oops, military action, with no boots on the ground? How will that work out?
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)I mean she didn't do a little song and dance like McCain did, but she's been very clear that she'd rather have war with them than peace, you OK with that?
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)You are or aren't ok with it?
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)nolabels
(13,133 posts)The real picture of what happened to JFK seems to be painted into a large mosaic even. This other picture of how and who set up the WTC with the metal eating thermite and all those things with it is still a little foggy though. Without WTC none of that kabuki theater with invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq would have been possible. The inner circle of bush* did not posses the brain power for the WTC take-down so rhetorical how did it happen? (I get to keep searching )
To that, of course Bernie wouldn't have voted for any of that crap that bush* was doing in the aftermath but to him and guys like Sen. Welstone they were willing to be counted what ever the costs to them personalty. Cowering to it was and is a weakness
I hope the subject gets dragged out again.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)one vote" earlier today.
I swear, you cannot make this shit up!
hoosierlib
(710 posts)Are why I'm voting for Bernie...
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)retrowire
(10,345 posts)Duppers
(28,123 posts)Great, well-needed post.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)hopemountain
(3,919 posts)in my state. many excellent reasons to back bernie and let hillary know "not now, not ever". it boggles the mind how money can make one so mean and careless with human lives.
tblue37
(65,377 posts)would have on the region, the lives impacted, the US budget, and the principles of moral action.
Her judgment was too strongly shaped by fear that her future political viability might be undermined if she didn't not only vote for the Iraq War Resolution, but also advocate forcefully for it in a speech on the floor of the Senate.
All too often her primary consideration seems to be how a given action or policy will affect her own political well being, not how it will affect the people she has promised to serve.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)Perhaps the single biggest reason I don't support her.
amborin
(16,631 posts)and represents the military-industrial complex