Five atheists who ruin it for everyone else

[redqueen]

I don't think they ruin anything but their own reputations, but the association fallacy is so popular (yes, even on DU)... it's not hard to see their point.

http://www.salon.com/2012/08/04/five_most_awful_atheists_salpart/

I already knew about most of this, but I'm not familiar with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and had no idea SE Cupp was an atheist.

[ret5hd]

1. "Many notable atheists believe in some powerfully stupid stuff, ...

thereby eroding the credibility of all atheists"

That may be sir, that may be. But for every crazy thing notable atheists believe, how many crazy things do notable xtians (or any other religion) believe?

So I guess all you are saying is "some people believe crazy stuff"? Have I about got it right?

[redqueen]

2. It makes sense when you look at it from this kind of perspective...

Except the default group in question wouldn't be 'boys', but rather 'religious people', and the subgroup not 'girls' but 'atheists'.

http://xkcd.com/385/

(i.e. a stupid one)

[AlbertCat]

16. "Many notable atheists believe in some powerfully stupid stuff, ...

Does 5 constitute "many notable atheists"????

[trotsky]

19. And not only that, but True Christians (TM) tell us repeatedly...

that the numbnuts in their group in no way represent or reflect on them. Yet here we have this delightful double standard. Gotta love it.

When people (including the author of this piece) can get past the idea that atheism is some monolithic group or movement or... *gag* "religion", they'll see the absurdity of these kinds of arguments.

Don't see that happening any time soon, however. It's too useful to dismiss us.

[redqueen]

24. Gah, yes... don't they love the No True Scotsman fallacy.

It's as predictable as the cycles of the moon.

[awoke_in_2003]

35. we can have a new internet meme...

no true atheist

[truebrit71]

3. Disagree about Bill Maher...in fact he's about the only openly-atheist star that gets any exposure..

No clue who the fuck Sippy Cupp is other than the fact that i've heard she's a douche-bag, Penn Jillette IS a douchebag, but that has been common knowledge for a long while, and I've never heard of the other two...

So yeah, I think this entire article is pretty much worthless...

[redqueen]

4. It's worthwhile as an example of how atheists are smeared, as a group.

Even in supposedly clued-in, progressive publications.

Some people seem to think it's only religious people who are smeared this way, but as pointed out above, that's the opposite of reality.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. Bill Maher is goofy on the subject of vaccination, etc.

But i think some people have an axe to grind with him becuse he mocks uptight puritans.

[truebrit71]

23. True, and his 'friendship' with Counter-geist sets my teeth on edge...

...but at least 90% of what he says I agree with and/or find funny..

[Warren DeMontague]

26. I thought he finally told her to piss off.

I could be wrong, though.

[Lucy Goosey]

5. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has a fascinating story

She grew up a believing Muslim, endured genital mutilation, fled an arranged marriage, became a refugee in the Netherlands, got an education, became a member of Parliament.

But I think this article has it right - saying she is to Islam as Ayn Rand was to communism is an excellent analogy. It's too bad - I've read one of her books, she's clearly an intelligent woman, but she is simply not rational about religious freedom.

S.E. Cupp is just a total fucking idiot who happens to be an atheist.

[redqueen]

6. Hahahahaha...

well said re: SE Cupp

[mr blur]

7. Maher and Harris are the only ones most people have heard of,

and most people (in the US?) appear to think that atheists are beyond the pale anyway, so I don't see how they "ruin it for everyone else".

Does the Pope ruin it for all the other Christans? Doesn't seem to.

Just because Maher is an anti-vax idiot, doesn't mean God exists. But I agree with you about the smearing of atheists. And you don't have to look beyond DU to see it.

[redqueen]

8. Well earlier someone said they had no idea who Harris is...

and I'd have thought most would know who Penn Gilette is... so I guess it all depends.

Either way, exactly re: smearing. It's only lazy thinkers that get sucked in by it, sadly there's no shortage of those.

[Warren DeMontague]

9. And Karl Rove is also, supposedly, an Atheist. But why would you come into this protected

Group to toss out examples of "bad" Atheists?

Would a similar thread be tolerated in the LGBT group? "5 awful gays who ruin it"? How about a thread in the feminists group about 5 feminists with some noxious opinions?

I think this thread is in violation of the SOP, frankly.

[PassingFair]

12. I disagree. I think we can talk about atheists we don't like.

And those that make the rest of us look bad.

For instance, the more I read of and about Christopher Hitchens, the bigger an asshole he becomes!

I found this little gem just yesterday:




"The writer Ian Parker describes what happened when a dinner party guest said something approving about Howard Dean:

Dean was "a raving nut bag," [Hitchens said]...then he corrected himself: "A raving, sinister, demagogic nutbag...I and a few other people saw that he should be destroyed. [...] "Fine, now that I know that, to you, medical ethics are nothing, you've told me all I need to know. I'm not trying to persuade you. Do you think I care whether you agree with me? No. I'm telling you why I disagree with you. That I do care about. I have no further interest in any of your opinions. There's nothing you wouldn't make an excuse for. You know what? I wouldn't want you on my side. I was telling you why I knew that Howard Dean was a psycho and a fraud , and you say 'That's O.K.' Fuck off. No, I mean it: fuck off. I'm telling you what I think are standards and you say, 'What standards? It's fine, he's against the Iraq War.' Fuck. Off. You're MoveOn.org. Any liar will do. He's anti-Bush. Fuck off...Save it sweetie, for someone who cares. It will not be me. You love it, you suck on it. I now know what your standards are, and now you know what mine are, and that's all the difference -- I hope -- in the world."


I just finished Hitchen's autobiography "Hitch 22". I started reading it as an admirer, albeit, an admirer who disagreed with a LOT of his stances, and I finished it knowing he was basically an asshole.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Certainly. Some Atheists are assholes. Look at Ayn Rand.

However, the entire purpose of this "exercise" is to make some statement about Atheists-as-a-class. Has anyone asserted that Atheists all have farts that smell like honey?

I think not.

[awoke_in_2003]

36. Hitchens just told people...

exactly what he thought. Some people find that assholish, but I don't. I may have disagreed with him on some things, like Iraq, but you always knew where he stood. I can respect that.

[PassingFair]

38. He had NO relationship with his kids. None.

According to his autobiography, he was a selfish, envious, puling individual.

I used to think I liked him, and I used to think he "believed" in
what he said, even if I disagreed with it.

Now I think he was a social climber who never bothered to resolve his issues with his parents and his "jewishness".

And not HALF as clever as he thought he was.

[awoke_in_2003]

39. I haven't read...

his autobiography, and, like probably most of DU, didn't know of his relations with his kids. You are probably wholly justified in your opinion on him. I think most people on DU, and the public in general, hate him for what he said. He said things that make a lot of people uncomfortable.

[PassingFair]

40. And I used to love him for it.

Here's an interesting article I just found:

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/86541/the-tenth-man-2

[awoke_in_2003]

41. Thanks. nt

[skepticscott]

11. I'm going to take a wild guess

without even reading the article, that the author says nothing at all about whether the fact that some atheists aren't the nicest people (and what group CAN'T you say that about, anyway?) has anything to do with evidence for the actual existence of the gods most people believe in. At best, I'm figuring they give it a handwave at the end, after smearing atheism and atheists by association the rest of the time.

[JoeyT]

18. Well no,

because it's obvious if you bother to read it that it's from an atheist that's sick to death of being associated with the people he lists.

The first two sentences of the article are:

"Like a fresh-baked loaf of sanity resting on the window of human possibility, atheism is on the rise in the United States. Will this growing constituency become a formidable political force before global warming decimates civilization?"

It's about famous atheists that claim crazy stuff (Libertarianism, racism, sexism, anti-vaxxer, etc) are "rationalism".

[PassingFair]

20. I agree with the writer's assessment of these particular atheists.

If you read the article, you might too.

[AlbertCat]

28. the writer's assessment of these particular atheists.

Well, his descriptions are really caricatures and not very "assessed". Things are more complicated. For instance, Harris' fear is not of Muslims, but of a fundy Muslim state or group getting a nuke or something like that. He doesn't fear Christians as much because he thinks they learned something from the mass murder of the Renaissance and Reformation.

Ehhhh...


I don't particularly "like" any of them or agree with a lot of them (except Maher is funny and on the money many times), but I've never met any of them so who cares if I "like" them or not? But I know they are more complicated that this article.

[PassingFair]

31. Well, they weren't BIOGRAPHIES.

Pretty succinct information about a handful of atheists who have said things that make me say "WTF!!"

[MineralMan]

14. If there is one thing that can be said about atheists in general,

it is that there is nothing that can be said about atheists in general.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Ruined, I say! You've ruined it!

Now, I'm gonna have to start over.

?v=1

[onager]

17. Ali apparently caused a big meltdown in the Tory Party...

...when she took up with Famous Bloviating Twit Niall Ferguson. Who was inconveniently married - for 17 years - to prominent Tory Susan Douglas, the mother of their 3 kids:

Today, The Mail on Sunday can reveal how Ferguson’s philandering behaviour – described by one confidante as ‘more akin to a Premiership footballer’s louche ways than an esteemed professor’s’ – wrecked his marriage to Ms Douglas, one of Tory leader David Cameron’s closest friends, a leading member of the Tory ‘A-list’ of potential parliamentary candidates and a former Fleet Street editor...

The separation is likely to affect both of their political careers, as each enjoys close links with the Conservative party, which has been focusing heavily on the promotion of marriage.



Yep, that "promotion of marriage/family values" thang sure do get tricky, don't it? Just ask Ted Haggard...

Full story at link below, with the wonderful title: The history man and fatwa girl: How will David Cameron take news that think-tank guru Niall Ferguson has deserted wife Sue Douglas for Somali feminist?

Ali and Ferguson got married last year. Among their wedding guests was Mr. Warmth-&-Chuckles himself, Henry Kissinger, subject of a fellatious Ferguson biography. The new Ali-Ferguson couple had their first baby earlier this year.

I've actually tried to read a couple of Niall Ferguson's books. IMO, he writes as if the English language had done him some terrible wrong and he's trying to take revenge. Just a lousy writer. He generally wants to make sure you get his BIG POINT, so he bludgeons you over the head with it repeatedly.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249095/The-history-man-fatwa-girl-How-David-Cameron-news-think-tank-guru-Niall-Ferguson-deserted-wife-Sue-Douglas-Somali-feminist.html#ixzz22pnIJvYf

[redqueen]

22. LOL, "he writes as if the English language had done him some terrible wrong"

That's hilarious.

Interesting company Ms. Ali keeps. Took me a bit to realize that she was the subject though. And IMO we should just get rid of the concept of marriage. It's outdated and causes more problems than it solves, again just MHO.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. So you don't feel that gay and lesbian couples who want to get married, should be able to?

I'm trying to get a read on this.

[urgk]

21. Oh, for goodness' sake...

Until we can accurately measure the total amount of good done by those five, then compare it to the total amount of harm, we're just gossiping and guessing and pretending that it's analysis.

How many atheists are armed with better arguments and/or analogies after watching Sam Harris' debates? Does his hardline stand against Islam override his thoughts on the existence of God? How many mainstream progressive/liberal Christians who've questioned their religion are exposed to the possibility of open atheism through Bill Maher? And SE Cupps? Does anybody... anybody actually think she's the prototypical atheist?

While I disagree with Penn & Teller, can't stand SE Cupps and actually get a rash watching grainy footage of Ayn Rand trying to turn her personal misery into a movement, this comes across as just another lazy "I feel X to be true, so it must be true" mush-pile.

[redqueen]

25. Gossiping, guessing, wild speculation...

These are cherished pastimes and while I agree the last two can be entertaining on any number of subjects, they're certainly not material for any serious discussion.

[urgk]

27. Speaking of gossipy speculation...

I would swear SE Cupps is an actress in a long-term performance piece. There's always an undercurrent of "I'm totally trying to get a reaction out of you," and a hint of "I'm thinking about my role before I say anything" when she speaks.

Besides...SE Cupps? "C cups"? That HAS to be a stage name.

[awoke_in_2003]

37. If she wants her name to gain traction...

she needs to change it to Dee :

[dmallind]

30. Compared to Madalyn, all of them are cheerful Dale Carnegie poster children

If atheism can not only survive but thrive under someone of far greater abrasiveness who actually WAS a spokesman at least for many atheists, it can surely do just fine with some slightly prickly people who are surely not.

[PassingFair]

32. My father LOVED Madalyn!

[redqueen]

33. I remember calling an American Atheist hotline as a teen...

It had a recorded message from her. A new one every week I think. I never knew she said anything objectionable (e.g. backing the use of torture, sexist BS, libertarian BS, etc.)

[PassingFair]

34. I'm interested in watching the rest of this video.

"Godless America"...

Looks like a real corker!