Some advice for my A/A friends

[Heddi]

from someone who knows about this first hand:

Don't give them what they want. Don't give them the argument, don't give them the pleasure of having a post of yours to alert on. Don't personally attack them. Don't be baited by them. Don't give them the cause to complain

I was (by one of them, at least) in another forum, on another DU, long ago. I almost lost my posting priveleges because of it.

They will not back down. They want us GONE. And they won't be happy until that happens. Don't give them the ammo. They will twist, and they will lie, and they will play innocent victim. And *we* will go away...voluntarily or by mandate...and they will remain, victors of an unfairly fought war.

If you do not think there is a vindictive, angry bunch here that are watching your (I say "your" because I'm more an active reader than active partipant these days) every word, your every post, and looking for the smallest sign of something to alert on...something that could be considered the "fatal flaw" that will get you banned forever, you are thinking wrong.

If you think a bad host will ever step down as host, you are *sorely* mistaken. Heels have been dug in, and there will be no stepping down unless that person is removed by higher-up hosts. Iif you think the behaviour will stop, or improve, or the hypocracy will end, wrong. Again, heels have been dug in. To change admits defeat. To improve behaviour means that you were right all along.


--be concise
--use facts, not personal attacks
--don't drag out the subthreads. Answer once then let it go.
--Don't be stupid about things. They are looking for ammo. They have friends on MIRT, other hosts, facebook. They are watching you, and they want the you to make the "fatal flaw" to get you out of here.

It happened to Laconic. It almost happened to me. Don't let it happen to you. We have lost too many good voices for stupid reasons.

On edit: I want to be clear this is not a call to "let it go". Anything but. I'm not suggesting at all that we be silent or complacent or let them just take over any forum. I'm saying that we can win any argument because we have facts on our side, because we are an intelligent bunch who can make an argument using facts and logic and without having to resort to hyperbole, personal attacks, or other hideable things. Don't give them the ammo they want. It should be clear that *they* have the upper hand. They have the upper hand in society, and how many of our personal attacks are hidden vs. theirs.

Play the game smart, and you'll still win in the end. Don't give into base emotions, like I did. That's what they want. I Swear they get a smug smile when one of us loses it, when we go from logical to hyperbolic, or PA mode. It fills them with glee beause it shows weakness on our part (my thought).

Don't try to play their own game because it is clear WE WILL NOT WIN BY THAT METHOD. Alerts to juries have shown that Du'ers really don't like Atheists. They don't mind attacks against Athiests. But they don't like the same things said about Christians. They like Christians. They *are* christians. Don't play a game you can't win.

[trotsky]

1. Well said, Heddi.

They demand not just tolerance but admiration for their religion and beliefs. Anyone who has even neutral commentary on it is clearly an enemy. There are some really poisonous believers on here on top of the general anti-atheist hatred that we see in society at large.

And it makes me happy to know those who despise us the most will read this because they simply cannot leave us alone.

[Curmudgeoness]

2. Many of us have said the same thing,

maybe not so eloquently, but we have warned some to find a different way to handle discussions with believers. Some will listen to you, and a few will not. I hope none of them push it too far.

There is a reason I do not normally go into Religion. I have no desire to argue or defend myself. Others enjoy it.

[2ndAmForComputers]

3. I fear they are going to win by Zerg Rush and completely fuck up the entire world

just as they did 1,700 years or so ago.

We need a Foundation.

[Warpy]

4. "--don't drag out the subthreads. Answer once then let it go. "

That alone will save you untold grief, whether it's in Religion, the Gungeon, or Health.

Not replying to some oaf who is looking for a fight is the meanest thing you can do to him.

[onager]

5. Good advice. And welcome back!

Haven't seen you around much. I missed you.

The only advice I would add - some threads are clearly posted as flame bait in Our Fave Group. I try not to answer, no matter how much my mouse-finger twitches.

When one of these threads gets no/few responses, the poster will just try again with a slightly different title, or go find a very similar article and post that.

Don't fall for the bait. Unfortunately, sometimes I can't take my own advice...

[mr blur]

6. Good advice - I really need to take it.

I've always been an atheist - it's no big deal over here. But being on DU really shows me what it must be like to be an atheist in the US.

[RKP5637]

13. Some would turn the US into a religious dystopia given the chance. It all gets a bit freaky. n/t

[JNelson6563]

7. Excellent advice! Incestuous forums are trouble.

Yeah, I used that word. hahahahaha!!!!!!!

Distraction aside, I couldn't agree more with Heddi's post. I go into religion rarely and, if I engage, it's briefly. One or two posts and I'm out.

And it's not all strategy, in large part it's because the nasty little dishonesties and whatnot by the believers sicken me. It's that damn simple.

Julie

[progressoid]

8. Hey Heddi!

Nice to hear from you again. And good advice.

I've mostly stopped playing their game. Every once in a while, I respond to something that is over the top. But I'm not in it for the bloody knuckles.

[Evoman]

9. Ha. I'm a boiling pot of base emotions.

Let em kick me off. More time to play video games.

[cleanhippie]

10. Heddi, you summed up the problem here very well.

You HAVE been paying attention, and your advice is the best I've seen in some time.

Now the question is, are the "higher ups" paying attention, and do they care?

[madmom]

11. I rarely go to religion, when I do I mostly just read. What I

do is read and laugh at their idiocy and sometimes share it with my family (hubby and daughter are also atheist) so they can laugh at them too.I can always find something that we can ROFLOL over

[AlbertCat]

37. I rarely go to religion, when I do I mostly just read.

Me too. Although there's one major poster over there that is kinda fun to play with. He's so predictable. He MUST have the last word and sub threads will go on forever if you keep replying to him. It's kinda cruel.... but you could just reply "PPPFFFFSSSTTT" and he would HAVE to comment on it. He can't help himself.

Pitiful really.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

12. Heddi, you're one of my favorite DUers

Thanks for the fantastic and timely post. I need to remember your words before I start in on the flame-thrower threads; I just have very little tolerance for stupidity.

BTW, you should hang out more often - your posts are some of the best stuff at DU.

[RKP5637]

14. Excellent advice! Thanks! I avoid religions and religious people like the

plague, I see so much evilness in them.

[Bradical79]

15. Yeah, good advice :-) Had my first post hidden today :-P

I called someone who wrote a mocking offensive lie about atheists a "liar" and got my post hidden by jury. In turn I alerted on the offensive post I'd responded to and got that hidden, so I guess I broke even on that one, lol. Normally I'm fairly tolerant (maybe too tolerant) of the religious, as I used to be deeply religious myself and remember what it's like. But when it comes down to outright lies and dishonesty in an argument from someone claiming moral superiority through their religion, then I tend to lose my temper.

[Rob H.]

16. My experience over there improved considerably once I started using Ignore again

Of course, I can only see a few posts in some threads I click into that supposedly have 20+ responses, so I'm thinking my Ignore list is just about right.

Edited for spelling.

[trotsky]

17. I concur with your results.

Ignore list has been very useful. There's really just one more person who should go on mine, but I find it's far more entertaining to expose them and their hypocrisy, frustrating the hell out of them in the process.

[onager]

18. Kicking because I am stupid...

And ignored Heddi's excellent advice.

We are being watched VERY closely. And that's not just paranoia.

[WillParkinson]

19. Of course we're being watched...and with good reason!

[mr blur]

20. Quite sad, really, isn't it?

Sad that they should be so insecure...

(and yes, you can quote this post in your next paranoid rant... )

[WillParkinson]

21. I don't do paranoid...

All my rants are well thought out and coherent.

[mr blur]

30. Er...not you,

our friends in the Lurking Troll Gallery.

[awoke_in_2003]

34. I work out...

http://www.vevo.com/watch/lmfao/sexy-and-i-know-it/USUV71101468

Sorry, that song got stuck in my head because of the chocolate M&M commercial

[Heddi]

31. What happened? PM if you'd lilke

I can only read so many threads in R/T before my brain starts to turn into goo

[EvolveOrConvolve]

33. They're kinda like god

You can't see them, but they're always there.

[trotsky]

22. Get a load of this load...

You don't even have to give them what they want - they're gonna try to smack us down (or spank us, evidently!) anyway. Someone (gee, who?) alerted on one of my posts. I do like how DU will let you know the results whether your post stands or not. But I won the jury lottery this time around - 6-0 in my favor!

At Thu Aug 9, 2012, 01:06 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Right, I've said exactly that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=39608

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Rude, condescending, offensive, intolerant. Poster needs a good spanking.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Aug 9, 2012, 01:10 AM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Alerter needs a good spanking for wasting the jury's time. Run along now.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Nothing wrong with this post.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Go ahead then. Spank him. I won't spank him for you.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No worse than the rest of this back-and-forth bickering

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Goblinmonger]

25. DU doesn't send you the results if you "win"

That was sent to you by someone on the jury.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members

I usually do that if I know the person or if it is something they would like to know but wouldn't unless someone sends the results to them.

[trotsky]

27. Oh I didn't know that.

Interesting. Thanks! I thought the phrasing was weird but figured it was just an automatic thing.

[JNelson6563]

28. That thread proved irresistible.

I can't believe someone alerted on that post. I hope they are noted for abusing the alert/jury system.

Julie

[Fix The Stupid]

23. Why can't they just answer questions?

That forum is a joke.

I see intelligent, well thought out replies and questions that never get answered. Just ignored or mocked...

I mean really? Why can I not get an answer to the questions I raised in this one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121838776


Was I out of line? It's hard to respect any believer who acts in the manners I've seen in that forum.

So insecure in their 100% certainty - kind of ironic.

[Rob H.]

24. It happens a lot over there

There are a few posters who won't answer questions no matter how many times they're asked, or worse, they'll respond with an answer to a question you never asked and then claim they did answer you when you point that out. There are also posters who answer your questions with questions of their own and then insist that you answer their questions first, thankyouverymuch.

I mostly lurk over there now thanks to that, and like I said upthread, the Ignore list has come in handy to make it a much more pleasant experience in general.

[rexcat]

26. I will second that...

and they come over here with malicious intent and use it in the Religion Forum or to alert posts here in A&A.

[trotsky]

29. They never answer the good questions.

The ones that blatantly point out contradictions in their beliefs, or even those that point out basic discrepancies. There is a core element of the religious mindset that's the same on the left and the right: "God believes what I do." To admit error in what they believe means they could be wrong in other things too, and dammit they're just positive that Jesus would have officiated a gay marriage ceremony if given the chance.

[onager]

32. Well, welcome to DU anyway!

You asked a good question, and you saw what happened. That's typical.

Yet after all the ignoring of posts, the insinuations that we're Stalinists or worse, the repeated and blatant bad faith on display...we (non-believers) are constantly being invited to "join us Lib'rul Xians" to fight the Evil Religious Right

"Hi, I'm sure you'd like to join our great Crusade to expose the lies of Conservative Jesus and spread the truth of Lib'rul Jesus. And if you don't see it my way, I'll just continue to club you over the head until you do. Peace!"

Uh...no.

[awoke_in_2003]

35. Life is too short...

to spend time in religion. Arguing with a brick wall is more productive. I am surrounded by nuttery here (DFW) and won't subject myself to more

[Taverner]

36. Christians are the least fair, the least ethical, and the least moral among us

They can get away with anything they want because they are "forgiven"

They can mask their hate in "hate the sin, love the sinner"

They can judge you, even though their bible specifically tells them not to, because they believe in "accountability"

You have to lie to yourself to be a Christian. I used to be one. Anytime you have doubts, you have to suppress those doubts. When someone like an Atheist comes around, that reawakens their doubts - that were so hard to suppress.

So they get frustrated, and think of course it was the "Devil" working through his evil Atheist minions to make them, the light of the world, lose faith.

[Rob H.]

38. I finally just trashed that group

Last edited Tue Sep 11, 2012, 11:41 AM - Edit history (2)

I love reading the oftentimes brilliant posts from the fine atheists I've met here on DU (well, virtually met, anyway), but the smug, humorless posturing, atheist-blaming, and passive-aggressive manipulation on the part (and behalf) of the religionists finally got to be too much over there. Seeing the general idea pushed that religion has only ever been responsible for things like rainbows, ice cream, and puppy breath got to be pretty damned old, too.

Kudos to those who are still standing up and making their voices heard over there. I may "un-trash" that group at some point, but I doubt it.


Edit: Okay, I just posted over there one last time. Some things (especially blatant falsehoods) shouldn't stand unanswered.

[rexcat]

39. I tried being nice but...

I failed because after a while the bullshit gets so deep it is not worth it. The religious always sees atheists as hating them. Any criticism of religion is taken personally. I just don't give a fuck about them right now. Part of my problem is the political fatigue I am currently experiencing which does not help my attitude concerning religious BS.

[MineralMan]

40. All very good advice.

It's completely possible to post in religion-based forums and groups, but the only way to do it is dispassionately. Your advice about not continuing subthreads is excellent, since it is in those that most slip-ups occur. Personally, I have a rule for contentious subthreads. I won't post more than two replies, and then I stop.

That said, I've once again abandoned hope and left. There's too much important political stuff going on to waste much time discussing religion right now. It's just not worthwhile. Maybe after the election...until then, I'll just sail off into the sunset and hope my boat doesn't sink.

[skepticscott]

41. That's certainly true at the moment

The Religion Group has gotten pretty tedious, with most of the noise coming from a few pathetic people who have nothing to do all day but scout the Internet all day for articles to post (uncritically) that promote their agenda, while steadfastly refusing to engage in real discussion of any substantial points raised by what they've posted. Debunking the same crap for the hundredth time starts to seem like a waste.

[MineralMan]

42. Right now, it looks to me like if everyone

pulled out, it would just be a couple of people talking to themselves. That's my plan for now.