My wife found this image on Facebook

[Tobin S.]

I don't know who took the photo or where it was taken, but here you go:



I hear of Obama giving lip service to believers sometimes, but it seems to me that he sets that stuff aside when he's doing his job. What do you think?

[Warpy]

1. His lack of support for DOMA and the overturn of DADT

along with at least lip service for marriage equality make me think that is true.

He's the President of all of us first. He's a Christian second and refuses to force his own religious baggage on us.

[JNelson6563]

2. I agree with both you and Warpy on this.

[laconicsax]

3. Those are great sentiments.

I can't say I agree that he sets it aside when doing his job. DOMA and DADT are mentioned upthread and I have a hard time believing that his reluctance to push for an overturn of both, his expanding of the faith-based office, his lack of involvement in North Carolina, etc. aren't the result of his religious beliefs.

[Starboard Tack]

4. Maybe he wants to be re-elected

What do you think his chances would be if he came out as a non-believer?

[daaron]

5. That's a rhetorical question, right? :) nt

[Starboard Tack]

10. Duh!

[laconicsax]

6. My word, Starboard Tack, are you acknowledging that non-believers are widely discriminated against?

I tend to find the argument that Obama pretends to be religious to get elected to be incredible, especially since it usually comes from people who claim to like Obama. It assumes that he has been lying for at least six years and claiming to make decisions based on that lie.

I stand by what I said in this thread: [div class="excerpt" style="border-left: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-right: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius: 0.3077em 0.3077em 0em 0em; box-shadow: 2px 2px 6px #bfbfbf;"]This poll boils down to two choices:[div class="excerpt" style="border-left: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-right: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius: 0em 0em 0.3077em 0.3077em; background-color: #f4f4f4; box-shadow: 2px 2px 6px #bfbfbf;"]Is he telling the truth?
Is he a liar on a grandiose scale?

I prefer the former.

Let's presume for a moment that Obama isn't religious and it's all a game. He claims his opposition to marriage equality on religious grounds. He also gave a lengthy speech in 2006 that talked about his love of religion and belief that religious faith is one of the most important things in his life and should be universal. He invited two pastors to give prayers at his inauguration and intends to be sworn in on a Bible.

If that's all a sham, then he is the worst sort of human being.
I don't know about you, but I prefer not to hope that the guy I voted for is a liar on a grandiose scale and a horrible human being.

[Rittermeister]

8. I guess I disagree here

I think he is probably Christian, but wish to science he wasn't. I would have no problem with him lying about it. Until the rest of the country pulls their heads out of their asses, it's the only way atheists are going to get into power, and I'd rather have a closeted atheist than a real theist any day of the week.

[laconicsax]

12. Astounding.

Absolutely astounding.

[Rittermeister]

25. Sir, I respect you very much

but here we part ways. We don't live in an ideal world. Guile and subterfuge, to one degree or another, are necessary to achieve worthy aims. I know that if I were ever to run for office, given where I live, I'd likely have to engage in the same sort of chicanery to have any chance of success.

[Starboard Tack]

13. Me too.

[Starboard Tack]

9. I don't know what running for president has to do with

non believers being widely discriminated against. He wouldn't be the first to fudge a little on his job application. It isn't about discrimination, it's about appealing to a voting block. I don't think he wants guns on our streets either, but he isn't going to make an issue of it. I don't care if he is a devout Christian, Muslim or whatever. It is none of my business unless he puts any religious faith he may have in the forefront of a political agenda. You sound like a pretty rigid, black and white person when it comes to religion. Well, regardless of Obama's faith, politicians lie all the time for different reasons. That's how they get elected. FWIW, I love the guy, and his wife and I wouldn't care if converted to Catholicism or Islam tomorrow. My world is about people, not what their religious beliefs are.

[laconicsax]

11. I don't think you've thought through what you just posted.

If you had, you would have noticed the enormous contradiction in your own words.

When you say, "It is none of my business unless he puts any religious faith he may have in the forefront of a political agenda," I wonder if you have actually been paying attention to the things he has done and said in speeches.

I would love to see you substantiate your personal attack, "you sound like a pretty rigid, black and white person when it comes to religion."

You also seem to have completely missed my point about the implications of him lying about being Christian. I suggest you re-read ALL of #6.

[Starboard Tack]

14. I don't see any contradiction.

I haven't seen anything he's said about his faith, which I accept btw, that impacts on his job. No personal attack was meant. Many people are rigid about their religious beliefs. I don't see that as necessarily something negative, just doesn't usually lead to a meaningful conversation. I have many friends who are rigid religiously, all good people or they wouldn't be friends. We just don't have these discussions. You may be the most flexible person in the world on other matters, but from reading your posts, I don't get that impression regarding religion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[laconicsax]

15. The contradiction is found here:

"It isn't about discrimination, it's about appealing to a voting block."

Think about that for a bit. What is the voting bloc and why would he not be an appealing candidate if he were, for example, an "out" atheist.

It's because of statements like, "it isn't about discrimination, it's about appealing to a voting block" that makes me think that you haven't really thought these things through.

It strikes me as naive to not see statements he's made about his faith (such as those on marriage equality) as affecting his job.

[Starboard Tack]

16. Yeah, I thought about it and see no contradiction.

Seems you have a rather bizarre sense of logic. I never mentioned discrimination, except to say "it isn't about discrimination". You brought discrimination into the conversation. The voting bloc would be Americans who subscribe to a religious faith. Expressing one's own personal faith is a smart way to wrap the package if one hopes to be elected. That's the reality. An unfortunate reality, perhaps, but a reality, nonetheless.
I think I've thought things through quite well and I think Obama has done the same. Also, his faith may well be genuine, which doesn't bother me one way or the other. First of all, he is a very shrewd politician, the best guy running and I'll be delighted if he is re-elected.

[laconicsax]

17. The fact that you don't see it shows a fundamental lack of understanding.

Ask yourself the following question: "Why would not being religious not appeal to a large number of voters?"

Maybe eventually, the light bulb will switch on and you'll understand why "It isn't about discrimination, it's about appealing to a voting block" is a contradictory statement.

[Starboard Tack]

18. I'll let you know if and when I reach your level of enlightenment.

Meanwhile, I stand by what I said. If he is a non-believer, I would think his motive for not announcing that to the world would be dictated by his desire to be re-elected, not by any fear of being discriminated against. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the guy is not Caucasian and is already the subject of just about every kind of discrimination imaginable. But, to be perfectly honest, I think he is probably sincere in his faith, at least to the degree that he can reconcile his beliefs with his knowledge, which is the case of most liberal believers.

[eqfan592]

19. Ummm....

If he is a non-believer, I would think his motive for not announcing that to the world would be dictated by his desire to be re-elected, not by any fear of being discriminated against.

Starboard Tack, I think you really need to go and re-read this sentence a few times over, because it is one of the most self contradictory sentences I've ever seen posted on this forum.

[Starboard Tack]

20. It may seem to be contradictory.

However, I am talking about his motivation. Think about it. What motivates the man? Winning the election. Would declaring himself as a doubter, or non-believer help him win the election? No. Is he afraid of being discriminated against for any reason? I seriously doubt it.
I see no advantage in declaring his religious beliefs as different than what he has already said.

[eqfan592]

21. Ok, then answer this question:

Why would his declaring himself as a doubter or non-believer not help him win the election? My guess is the answer will have something to do with the fact that a majority of theists trust sex offenders more than they trust atheists, which I think we could fairly argue is a form of discrimination. Thus, he would indeed be afraid of being discriminated against, and that discrimination would come in the form of many peoples refusal to vote for an atheist.

[Starboard Tack]

22. I'm not saying that the discrimination doesn't exist

I'm just saying that fear of discrimination is not what I think motivates Obama, if in fact, he is a closet non-believer, which is in doubt and ultimately nobody's business. I think his style is more positive. He thinks about those he can win over, not those he might lose. He's a politician. A politician doesn't usually win without pandering. The only one I can think of who didn't pander was Trudeau. Tony Blair waited until he left number 10 before converting to Catholicism. Disraeli converted from Judaism to Protestant Christian. It could be translated as being afraid of discrimination, or about understanding the rules of the game and what needs to be done to win. Atheism is not an option for a presidential candidate in this country - yet. Neither is gun control. Neither is being gay. Hopefully, we aren't too far away from those things. There are more important things right now than worry about our president's spiritual beliefs.

[laconicsax]

23. And again you admit the discrimination while denying it! That's called contradiction.

I would think his motive for not announcing that to the world would be dictated by his desire to be re-elected, not by any fear of being discriminated against.

Why would announcing to the world that he's a non-believer hurt his re-election chances if no one would discriminate against him for that reason?

BTW, I think I've now seen the most pathetic use of the race card ever. Thanks for that.

[Starboard Tack]

24. So the way you see it is "don't tell the truth" because they won't vote for you if you do.

And I see it more as "tell them what they want to hear" and you might get elected. I think we're saying the same thing, but seeing it through different lenses.
I have no idea what you mean with your BTW, let alone why you are thanking me.

[laconicsax]

27. Yes, it's different lenses that allow me to understand that it's discrimination.

The fact that a sizable majority of the American public won't vote for a non-believer is an example of discrimination we face. No matter how you try to frame that, you can't deny that the discrimination exists and would play a role in Obama losing the GE if he came out as a non-believer--not because he didn't sufficiently suck up to god-botherers.

I'm not at all surprised you don't understand this or what I meant with my BTW remark. Maybe if you integrated back into society you'd start noticing things.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

28. Question ST

Do you think discrimination against atheists in the U.S. is a problem?

[Starboard Tack]

29. I think all discrimination based on race, creed or gender is a problem

Apparently, many atheists have suffered discrimination in the U.S., so it is a problem. The question is, how to solve that problem. I usually find the best solution is by demonstrating that what makes me different is nothing they need fear. My lack of belief is no threat to anyone. Why should it be?

[Neoplebe]

7. I can't think of a single national leader who publicly denounced religion.

But I sure do believe there were many who only pinned it to their coat for the sake of ensuring their chances of holding office.

It requires a certain naivete to imagine that a person who rules under god does so in fear of their creator. To the contrary, it requires an honest and experienced understanding of the nature of mankind to recognize that any who do so imagine themselves closer to god than all others, granting their self authority to make decisions despite the opposition of logic or reason.

[bahrbearian]

26. K&R