Gahh. I need to rant.

[F4lconF16]

For the most part, religion hasn't managed to directly affect me because I refuse to let it. I have managed to keep it almost entirely out of my private life, limiting my involvement to the occasional discussion with friends or calling out some hypocrisy. Otherwise, I'm too fed up with it to deal with it on anything less than a national level, or while discussing religious ideas in general. I've kept out of church meetings with friends (unless they let me go as a flaming atheist--that's always fun!). I didn't let the constant bombardment of religious icons, radio, music, advertising, and speeches this holiday season get to me. I have avoided it in almost every way I can, because inevitably it ends up with me being pissed off with the constant BS. I've been much, much happier without it in my life.

Except, of course, it rears its head again. One of my good friends is an absolutely incredible woman, intelligent (probably significantly more so than me), driven, witty, compassionate, non-judgmental in the slightest, etc., etc.. She generally supports liberal policies and ideals, and she's happy to listen to reason and think about the world in a different way. She comes from a conservative religious background, and I'm actually pretty shocked she hasn't followed the path they had for her. She's a damn good friend, and we're considering dating.

But then there's religion. I really wonder how much she truly believes in it--she's so opposed to much of what it teaches in other areas. I'm not sure if there's just an unwillingness to confront her own beliefs, or if it's something else. I think it's the community that she really wants/needs, as she's fairly involved with the church. I don't really know. But she's religious enough that it's a pretty big obstacle for us dating (and it's mostly both ways on this, though I think the idea of a partner without those beliefs bothers her more than the idea of a partner with beliefs bothers me). And it's pissing me off (not at her, just in general, to be clear), because this is the sole reason we wouldn't get together. We get along fantastically in just about every other way.

Gahh. Like I said, ranting time. I know there's plenty of other fish in the sea, but this is not the first time this has been a problem, and I sincerely doubt it's going to go away in the future. No real point to this post other than it's annoying the heck out of me and I needed to get it out. We'll see if I actually post this. If I do, I'll probably self-delete after a few hours to a day. I don't mind talking about my life on here, but when it gets into other people's stuff I tend not to put anything online, even as innocuous as this.

Edit: obviously posted this. Any advice? Not so much this particular relationship (she and I communicate well, and I assume we'll figure this out without a problem), but with religion and dating in general. Cause it's annoying me, and I should really find a better way to deal with it than letting it annoy me and then ranting here

[Warren Stupidity]

1. Figure it out? You have discussed this with her, right?

If not - you should. Otherwise, good friends are rare, treasure them.

[F4lconF16]

4. I have to some extent.

It's an ongoing thing, if that makes sense.

Agreed; I do, and I will.

[LiberalAndProud]

2. At one time, it would have been a deal-breaker for me.

Before I rose to reason, I really thought that I wouldn't be compatible, long term, with an unbeliever. My husband and I were both believers once. Now, we're both not. Imagine that!

[F4lconF16]

5. One thing I mentioned when we were talking

Was that a lot can change in a couple of years or more. Anything serious is a long way off (years) for the both of us, and I tend to think it wouldn't be a problem regardless.

Glad it worked for you guys

[LiberalAndProud]

15. I think you'll know more

after you spend some time with her family. Pleasant Thanksgiving dinners are a good thing.

[F4lconF16]

19. I hope so.

Her parents are...significantly more conservative then their children. I finally got to meet her sister recently, who's pretty awesome. We butt heads, but I like her.

[freebrew]

3. A broken deal for me, long ago...

too bad. I was dating a beautiful woman, daughter of a church-based college prof. She seemed independent, but alas, she left me for a church guy, now a pastor.

Of course, I was no catch, so I don't blame her.

[F4lconF16]

6. I think it's more disappointing than anything else.

Just wish it weren't an issue at all, because it really shouldn't be in this day and age.

Of course, I was no catch, so I don't blame her.

Heh, sounds about right.

Edit: reread that last statement, and it came off exactly the opposite of the way it was intended

[trotsky]

7. Ugh, no fun.

Just keep those communication lines open. Don't avoid the subject, talk about it. She's made incredible progress already - coming from a conservative religious background - that who knows where she might end up.

But depending on your ages and the supply (or lack thereof) of other suitable dating partners in your area, you'll both have to decide how big a deal it is. Good luck!

[F4lconF16]

9. I think that's about what I'm going to do.

I feel like if I talk to her, over time she may accept my atheism and not feel the need for a partner who is also Christian. And she is totally fine with the atheism otherwise, just not necessarily in a potential partner.

But depending on your ages and the supply (or lack thereof) of other suitable dating partners in your area, you'll both have to decide how big a deal it is. Good luck!

College-age person looking for other college-age person in the university area of a large metropolitan area? Yeah, I think we've got options Thanks!

[Curmudgeoness]

8. My irrelevant opinion

is that it really does depend on several factors: 1) Her commitment to religion, 2) How serious this relationship would be, 3) Her opinion of you as a nonbeliever, 4) How her other friends would feel about it because they could work to sway her.

I have dated men who believed in God, but were not exactly what I would call religious, and it didn't get in the way. I have never been in a relationship with someone who was involved in the church, but if it really is about community, that should not be a deal breaker.

There is at least one atheist here who is married to a church going believer, and has even posted about going a few times to services with her because it mattered to her, so there is at least one example of it not being a problem. I suppose that it is the other qualities that matter to both of them. You have to have a serious and frank discussion with her about this to determine if it is a problem for her, as well as a discussion with yourself about how much it really matters to you.

But you are right, it is a shame that this is even something to worry about.

[F4lconF16]

10. Pah, I consider your opinion relevant.

You are one of my favorite posters on here, and I am happy to hear what you have to say.

1) She is fairly committed at the moment. That may change or not as she moves on in life, but for now, I don't see it changing unless her underlying views change.

2) Eh. It could be anywhere from a small thing for a little while to see if we like the idea of being more than close friends, or we could end up marrying, if I'm being honest (yikes--marriage, I don't even want to think about that yet). She and I get along really well, so I have no idea how far it might go.

3) No different than if I was a believer. She truly is a non-judgmental person, and has no issues with my atheism, bisexuality, support of socialism/far left politics, "drug" use, etc. She respects me quite a bit, and religion has nothing to do with that.

4) Well, all of her friends are pretty religious. They quite like me as far as I can tell, though, so at least there's that. I feel like the idea of dating an atheist is mostly alien to them--they are all participants in Church groups and activities like she is, and as far as I can tell, tend to date within the church.

but if it really is about community, that should not be a deal breaker

This is I think what I really want to talk to her about. I'm still not 100% sure why the religion thing is a deal-breaker, but I think it's because she wants someone who can participate in what is an important part of her life (which is community, in my book).

I will look through some threads for those who are married, unless you care to PM me as to their name(s) so I can just search them.

Thank you for your thoughts--they have actually been quite helpful in clarifying my own.

[Curmudgeoness]

11. You might have a problem.

I am not saying that you should not date her, because I think that it would be a good thing to go forward as long as you could handle what I have to say now. If all of her friends are "pretty religious" and tend to date within the church, I have a feeling that she will either start to have problems with a relationship if it goes anywhere, or her friends will sway her if they see that you are not going to be a part of their community.

I would not be surprised if the friends who like you now are thinking that they can convert you, and if that fails, they may not be so accommodating. So my advise is that you really should take this slow and test the waters out. You are both young and I have to say that my opinions have changed a lot over the years. Either of yours might too, so don't invest too much into this at the beginning.

I cannot help you find the thread where there was a discussion about going to church with his wife, and how he did it for her (how sweet), but I believe that it was Tobin S. If it isn't, it could be, because he is a wonderful human being from what I have seen here.

[F4lconF16]

16. I think if we choose to date

I'm entering it with a "we'll see where it goes" kind of attitude. You could very well be right that there might be problems, and if there were, I believe we communicate well enough to be honest about them. If we were to split up, I have the feeling it would be amicable. It would be tough watching that, but I think she's worth giving it a shot. I agree that taking it slow would probably be best, just kinda feeling out what works.

As for her friends, I don't think I have to worry too much about converting; I've known them for years now and they are aware of my atheism. I've never hidden it, though I just remained silent the couple times I attended church last year. It's a pretty young congregation and it was all pretty good messages, though couched in the rhetoric of religion, of course. They're a good bunch of people. I've ranted to at least one of them about capitalism, the conservative right, racism and religious anti-woman bs before, so I've made my feelings very clear on the matters. I don't think they'd openly challenge me on it or try to convert me, though they might talk to her. If that happens, then so be it. She's a pretty smart, independent person. I think she'd be able to figure out what she needs/wants.

I will look it up; I agree that he's a pretty dang good person, from what I remember.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Well, you're obviously at least of some interest to her.

So, there's potential. All I can suggest is (If you continue to be interested in her) keep being interesting, and see what she decides over time. If something develops, cool, if not, hey, you have a friend at least. If she's interesting enough to you to want to pursue a relationship, it follows she's good friend material.

[F4lconF16]

17. Point taken.

She's a damn solid friend.

[F4lconF16]

20. "Clearly the best course of action is to be as honest and open about it as possible with one another

"and respect boundaries when someone hits a "deal breaker" point."

I think that's exactly what I would hope would happen. Like I said in another post, we communicate well.

It is heartening to hear the stories of people who have done it, though. We need to break those barriers.

In my opinion, and to be totally trite, nothing ventured nothing gained. If it feels like something rewarding might be at stake, it can be worth the risk.

And that's really what it comes down to, for me. I think she's worth the risks, which, with good communication, aren't really that bad.

And for what it's worth (probably not much), the vast majority of these couples have pretty much kept their respective beliefs/non-beliefs, but of the ones where one had influence over the other? The person of faith became agnostic or atheist. I can't think of a single one where the atheist became religious. I'm sure it happens, but I don't have any in my circle.

It's been the same in my experience

[edgineered]

14. The church community cannot be considered as an unknown here.

There is a chance that they may never entirely accept her in their circle and put enormous pressure on her. Visiting some of the toxic groups here should illustrate that. You need to look at her for who she is, what she faces, and how you think it will go. Any other fish in the sea doesn't matter.

[F4lconF16]

18. You have a point.

It's sad how quickly people become filled with hate when defensive about their religion and who enters that group. I hate watching an otherwise decent person change the way they treat you when you're an atheist.

Any other fish in the sea doesn't matter.

Point well taken.