A few thoughts on the modern theist movement.

[Warren Stupidity]

Back when I was young and foolish I used to think that religion and the religious were not a problem. In fact I even dabbled in the pervasive woo of the tripped out 60's, most of which decade occurred in the 70's and carried over into the 80's, except in some parts of California and Portland Or. where it is still carrying over.

Then I ran into a bunch of real haterz. Theists like Rick Perry, Michelle Bachmann, or Sarah Palin, determined to create a theocracy here. Violent asshat theists like bin Laden, like the four creeps who committed the paris massacre two weeks ago. Like the jihadists who are about to chop the heads off of two unfortunate Japanese civilians. In fact, when I think about it, theist nonsense went from oddities that were amusing in the 70's like moonies and hari krishnas to horror shows on a non-stop basis that just aren't amusing at all. Instead of Charlie Manson being some sort of delusional aberration, we have a planet full of religious Charlie Mansons run wild. Je ne suis pas que Charlie.

In fact it is really fucking serious. We have a problem with religion and it is planet wide.

[trotsky]

1. We can't even have an honest conversation.

Suggesting that religious beliefs can indeed play a role in these horrible tragedies - and in some cases, are the key ingredient that made them possible - is instantly shouted down.

[AlbertCat]

2. Back in the 90's...

.... when conservative media was pushing forward and becoming all the rage, I saw this article in my father's WSJ about "Is Religion being Feminized?" I said out loud "What the hell are they talking about? There too much religious shit these days!" My sister just went off on how I hate religion. I told here there too much fundie baloney going mainstream and it was dangerous. "We'll have religious nuts running the country!" She said I was ridiculous and alarmist.


Uh huh.....

[trotsky]

4. Totally agree with you here.

I mean, it's great when the magical beliefs lead you to accept the decent things like human rights, equality, care for the environment, etc. But the bottom line is, when your foundation for those is the same exact one as used by someone like, say, Inhofe to deny all those things, we have a problem. "God told me being gay is OK" has exactly as much support as "God told me being gay is wrong."

And some people think that pointing this out is about the worst thing you can do - as bad, if not worse, than the vile idiot saying that being gay is wrong.

[Act_of_Reparation]

6. For me the reasoning process is as important as the conclusion.

Yes, it is all well and good that some people arrive at humane conclusions by way of religion. The problem is that I can't rely on them, because they are using an unreliable means of discerning answers. That's why I don't cream my pants when the Pope says something nice about the poor; because he's dead fucking wrong on a number of other, very important issues.

[skepticscott]

13. Exactly. And the people in Religion who either don't grasp

or pretend not to grasp why it matters that so many people believe things in the absence of evidence are a big part of the problem. It's that kind of never-ending apologetics that enables and legitimizes all sorts of nonsense that corrupts and poisons society.

[Act_of_Reparation]

18. There are real world examples, from that very forum, that demonstrate why you're correct.

They say belief without evidence is harmless, but they are careful to qualify that by describing anyone who believes something in the face of contrary evidence is a "dumbass".

But here's the problem: what happens when contrary evidence is eventually presented? Do the liberal believers abandon their beliefs to go where the data lead them?

Not if we're talking about the Exodus, apparently. There, they stuck to their guns and deployed the same asinine arguments creationists use: "WHERE YOU THERE? YOU CAN'T PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN", while the apologists pull a 180 and say, in this case, belief in the face of contrary evidence doesn't matter because the belief is "harmless" (though I'm sure the Egyptians and Palestinians would beg to differ).

[F4lconF16]

14. "The complex problems in our post-industrial world simply cannot be addressed without a solid

grounding in reality."

Ted Cruz. 'Nuff said.

[wavesofeuphoria]

15. There seems to also be a weird ethics in that reasoning too.

For example, "liberal" catholic women using birth control. Clearly this defies doctrine. No consequences for them really, but others are suffering because of that doctrine, but due to the catholic privilege, they too have privilege (as I think it was trotsky who phrased it as "wink and nod&quot . You see the same thing from the "conservatives" -- rally against same-sex marriage in the name of the sanctity of marriage yet they are schtupping a colleague's spouse; still they are christians - forgive, cry, and nevermind.

Now the ethics of this is troubling. They take that same ethics and apply it in other areas. No "handouts" for others while they take subsidies. Torture is bad, but hey, let's look forward and not deal with that whole war criminal stuff. We are still great, because exceptionalism, yay USA.

Rational thinking people operate on evidence, observation, and a certain sense of agreement regarding articulated social contracts and frickin' Constitutions.

In other words - the screw-ed up thinking that results from believing in this contrived crap, of not listening when your core human sense says "this is wrong" - affects us all when those thinkers, those twisters of reality (I belong to A, A requires B, fuck B, I still belong to A he he I'm getting away with something) are making secular laws.

So yeah, I agree, you are right on the mark!!!

[Curmudgeoness]

7. The problem with the new atheist movement

is the modern theist movement. It all goes back to the way that religion has become front and center in so much of our lives. The people who used to be fringe players who no one took seriously are now in positions of power.

The more they push, the more we have to push back. Without that, we will all topple.

[JDDavis]

10. A very important point in 2015 ! n/t

[onager]

8. I had a theist movement just this morning.

It was probably the muesli...

[Warren Stupidity]

9. I blame kale in my smoothie.

[progressoid]

12. ...

[mr blur]

11. Doesn't matter how "modern" they are, they still believe

in the same old irrational, bigoted, vicious, unfair, ridiculous tripe that the ancient theist movements did. (And at least they had the excuse of almost total ignorance of the Universe)

[Warren Stupidity]

17. which is a really good point.

At least admit that the entire thing is just myth and that belief does not entail that any of the obviously made up nonsense events in the holy books is factual. Believe that we should be compassionate to each other, not in magical beings that require us to be compassionate to each other. It seems like such a small step.

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. Didn't you know? 'Modern' means "hostile, aggressive, ...

... obsessed with those who don't think just like they do and extremely divisive", "derisive and, frankly, very juvenile". When anyone talks about 'modern' anything they are just talking a sub-group of present-day people, with those characteristics. "The distinction is clear".

[defacto7]

16. In modern times and ancient as well for that matter,

religion has been the catalyst, the means to subjugate the masses under the control of the wielders of power. It's no different in out socio-political climate. We have the dancers on the bottom who suck it up, the enablers in middle places like congress to preach and then the power controllers with the money on top. It's the top of the pyramid who have the plan and the profit, the underlings just dance the dance of servitude. Everything else if window dressing.

[Act_of_Reparation]

19. Spot on.

And if you want to get specific, just look at the basic tenets of Christianity: life is pain, suffering is par for the course, your reward will come in the hereafter. So sit down, shut the fuck up, and accept your lot in life. You'll get that McMansion on the hill once you die from inadequate diet and nonexistent health care.

"But belief in heaven makes people feel better!"

Or it makes them docile?

[Promethean]

20. You left out

You are dirty, rotten and broken and you can only be fixed after you die but you gotta follow all these rules in the meantime.

[defacto7]

23. and you left out

that you are dirty, rotten and broken... FROM BIRTH! You are born in SIN! and you have to go through all sorts of nonsense so you don't burn in hell for a billion years prime. What a stupid load of shit that is. Roasting babies in hell.... or do they get a reprieve because they haven't heard the word of god yet? I say, don't teach then the stuff ever so no one goes to hell! That's the crazy illogical nature of it.

Of course a roasted toe or two sounds tasty to us baby eating atheists.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. I wonder what "message deleted" had to say.

I'm sure it must have been fascinating.

Most likely more of the inanity on display on the left in their entirely willful effort to blind themselves to the manifest problems with religion in the modern world. I remain an old school new leftist who thinks religion is part of the ideological tool kit of subjugation.