Doubt and religious belief

[trotsky]

Curious - how many folks here, thinking of the believers you have met and known, would agree that a significant number of them truly experience "doubt" about their belief in god?

I think it's "expected" for believers who fancy themselves tolerant and open-minded to pay lip service to doubt, say that it's an essential part of faith, etc. But of the believers I have interacted with, I can think of very very few who would actually reach the point that I would consider "doubt."

It's more than thinking "Gosh, there are some horrible things in the world, I hope god knows what he is doing." But I have a feeling that many believers think THAT'S what doubt is. And when I look back at my development from believer to atheist, I know that what I thought was doubt early on was nothing compared to the latter stages of abandoning my religious faith.

So again, just wondering what other people's experiences have been.

[Warpy]

1. I've found real doubters to be the most vehement anti atheist people out there

People who are secure in their belief system don't seem to be bothered too much, they just pray for us that we'll find our way to Jebus.

[mr blur]

2. Can't really say as I've never been a believer so I have no personal history of that doubt,

I've always felt that most believers don't really believe but feel that they should.

I feel that Bertrand Russell hit the nail squarely on the head when he wrote, in Human Society in Ethics and Politics:

“There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not face this thought!

Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed."

Seems to me to cover many of the reactions we are faced with in certain forums on DU (and elsewhere).

-

[bvf]

3. Food for thought

and an excellent OP.

[LostOne4Ever]

4. Not a single one

Every single believer I know is a true believer in every sense of the word.

[NeoGreen]

5. The openly doubting theists I have met...

...were well on their way along the atheist path already, all they were really missing was the proper language to express their doubt.

Other than that, without an open expression of doubt, I have no idea if any given theist has 'doubt' as we understand it.

Truth is, most of them give no indication of being able to question faith itself. Most of their "doubt" is in the form of 'my life sucks', or 'I am unhappy', or 'that is bad'. The inevitable response is 'what have I done to offend god?' or 'what can I do differently to feel god's love?' and make it all better. They doubt their particular approach, not the attempt at making the approach itself.

Their doubt, as they know it, tends to make them cling even harder.

[Curmudgeoness]

6. If any believer that I knew had doubts,

they certainly were hiding it well. In fact, the believers who I know are 100% sure that they are right. But to be fair, there are a lot of people out there who do not announce whether they believe or not, and those may be the ones who often have doubts. Those true believers who tell the world about their religion and Jesus would never admit to doubts. I think that is a sin or something.

[Heddi]

7. The True Believers (tm) that I have known in my life, my family, my work, my school etc

have mostly all talked about moments of doubt and/or weakness when they were faced with a difficult or trying situation. But they seem to feel that the doubt was whether THEY were worthy of God's love or intervention.

Basically, they never doubted whether they believed in God, they doubted whether God believed in THEM.

The worst thing is when people (like several family members) went through bad shit and because they didn't feel the presence of God as, say, they were going through very aggressive Cancer, they felt it was because they were bad and undeserving of God's presence. IMO, they neglected themselves to focus on pleasing GOd more. Praying more, going to church more, reading the bible more. All to please God. Then, down the road, they felt God enter their life again and their cancer metastasized and I guess it's a blessing from God to have your lady organs turn to black raisins and then your bones and your lungs and finally your brain. Because that's how God shows love: he makes your body the Cancer Superhighway and makes you die screaming in pain because you can't kill bone cancer pain even with pumps and patches.

I think it's sick. It's a sick mindset and I can see where those who are so...invested in this idea...get *so* offended at the abused spouse comparison. It's hard to face the fact that you love a spiteful, judgemental ass who does nothing to help when he could, and when he doesn't, he expects thanks. Thanks for doing nothing and thanks for the crumbs that are thrown. If he acts like he doesn't love you, it's because YOU don't deserved to be loved. Sick? What did you do to deserve it? Unhappy with life? You must be the cause of your own suffering.

Going through a bad time? HE is the one that gives you comfort. Not feeling up to the task? HE is the one who gives you strength. Frightened about the future? HE is the one who gives you confidence. Never yourself. YOU never have it in you. YOU NEED HIM TO SURVIVE.

I saw this in the years of physical, mental, and emotional abuse my mother suffered at the hands of my Stepfather. The justifications for why prayers aren't answered, or why bad things happen to good people are *very* similar to the justifications used for why my mother's head was a perfect thing to slam into an oven hood, and why bad things happened to good people.

[AlbertCat]

8. The average person....

.... goes about their day with nary a thought of god for hours and hours. Maybe they say grace at meals and/or say prayers at bedtime, but these things I think are more rituals than real interactions with the idea of god. Then of course on Sundays or Saturdays (or whenever) they do the church/temple thing, but having grown up around Presbyterians, that is most definitely a social thing and, again, ritual. Praying 5 time a day with a whole routine most definitely seems more ritual than faith....and of course it's public/social.
(I really think that the main reason adults continue to "do" religion is because of fear of being ostracized.)

People who truly think about god all the time are impossible! You know what I mean.

As for doubt....the more ego, the less doubt.



I wonder now about the relationship of faith to ritual.

[onager]

9. Very few, in my experience.

Whatever bad things happen, they just get papered over with "mysterious ways."

I can say that, again strictly in my experience, this applies to "mainstream" Sunni Muslims as well as Xians. "Mysterious ways" really is a one-size-fits-all dodge.

Sort of example: when I lived in Saudi Arabia, I often heard what a miracle it was that Allah put all that oil under their sand. Now putting on my Evil Colonialist Hat for a moment - they would have probably never found that oil without the help of Western technicians. But nobody mentioned that little detail.

Your question also reminds me of this story from my recent reading: for hundreds of years, Middle Eastern imams preached that the whole world had already accepted Islam. It was a done deal, all those foreigners had been conquered by Allah.

Then the average Muslim got a big dose of doubt served up in 1798, when Napoleon Bonaparte landed in Alexandria. Along with an army, his huge fleet included doctors, scientists, archeologists, scholars etc.

And at that time, he was leading a French army that was officially atheist. By law the army held no church services and had no chaplains.

Something was clearly wrong here. A huge army of infidels had landed, with all sorts of wonderful new inventions. Medicines that worked even better than prayer, the first printing press in Egypt (with Arabic letters, no less), entire histories of strange new peoples...

But the imams had told them the whole world was just like them, followers of Allah. To the average poor and uneducated Egyptian peasant, this must have seemed something like an invasion from outer space.

And how did they resolve that doubt? "Mysterious ways" again, I guess. It certainly didn't lead to a mass rejection of those religious leaders who had been lying to them for centuries.

[Silent3]

10. I think they have doubts, in the form of a big mixed-up contradictory mess.

Many will admit to having doubts, but it's in the same way they formulaically admit to being "sinners".

Meanwhile, they are experiencing real doubts, but consider them something to be "prayed away".

They show no signs of doubt when going through the motions of being pious, when that suits them, but still fear death in a way that demonstrates that their belief that they'll be "going to a better place" only runs so deep.

They repeat their beliefs, such as "Jesus is Lord!", like incantations, as something that apparently needs continual reinforcement, in a way exactly like I don't daily recite "Water is H₂O!", as if this fact were in danger of slipping away without constant repetition.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. All of the believers I know are arrogantly confident.

And not just in relation to my position as an atheist, but amongst themselves, comparing sects of Christianity, or when they shit on believers of another faith entirely.

[Cartoonist]

12. Mark Twain again

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."

While googling this quote to make sure I got it right, I found this comment:

Mark Twain isn't God! He got it dead wrong! Faith is trusting what you don't know, based on what you already DO know!
Don't quote people who hate God, you only get a distorted and twisted understanding from some one who is in rebellion against God, who doesn't know God, and doesn't WANT to know God.
It's foolish to put your trust in finite, temporal mortals over the infinite and eternal God of all creation.
-
I think it is safe to say that this person has no doubts whatsoever. Anything less than that, though, reveals a presence of doubt even if a person does not voice them. It may exist as a small nagging feeling far back in the deep recesses of their mind, but it is there nevertheless

Parachutists hope that their chute will open properly, yet all of them know there is the possibility that it won't. I would never jump out of an airplane because I have no faith whatsoever that my chute would work properly, and even if it did, I have a strong belief that I would break an ankle upon landing. A true believer would have no doubts whatsoever that their chute will always open with no chance of failure. Such a person is clearly mistaken and reveals a limited intelligence.

The presence of doubt is a proof that a person has, at least, a minimum of objectivity. The person quoted above has no objectivity whatsoever. There is absolutely no point in discussing religion with such a person. Others though, can at least engage in an intelligent conversation.

[onager]

13. This woman wrote the book on it...

Literally, and I can't believe I forgot to mention it already:

Doubt: A History: The Great Doubters and Their Legacy of Innovation from Socrates and Jesus to Thomas Jefferson and Emily Dickinson by Jennifer Michael Hecht

It's a fantastic book, though Hecht sort of runs out of steam near the end. She does mention most of the prominent Baby-Eaters like Dawkins, Hitchens et. al. Maybe it's just my perception about the running out of steam." Probably because getting flayed alive or burned at the stake for your doubt is not much of a comparison to being called a poopyhead by Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort.

Booklist review, from the Amazon page:

Let others admire cathedrals: poet and historian Hecht celebrates the creations of doubters. In this remarkably wide ranging history, Hecht recounts how doubters from Socrates to Wittgenstein have translated their misgivings about regnant orthodoxies into new philosophic insights and political horizons.

Though she explores the skepticism of early Greek thinkers challenging pagan gods, the tantric doubts of Tibetan monks chanting their way to enlightenment, and the poetic unbelief of heretical Muslim poets, Hecht gives center stage to Christianity, the religion that made doubt newly visible--and subversive--by identifying faith (not law, morality, or ritual) as the very key to salvation.

Readers witness the martyrdom of iconoclastic doubters such as Bruno, Dolet, and Vanini, but Hecht also illuminates the wrenching episodes of doubt in the lives of passionate believers, including Paul and Augustine. In Jesus' anguished utterances in Gethsemane and at Calvary, Hecht hears even Christ experiencing the agony of doubt. Indeed, Hecht's affinity for the doubters who have advanced secular democracy and modern art does not blind her to the hidden kinship between profound doubters and seminal believers: both have confronted the perplexing gap between human aspirations and their tragic contradictions. In her provocative conclusion, Hecht ponders the novelty of a global confrontation pitting America not against the state-sanctioned doubt of Soviet atheism but, rather, against a religious fundamentalism hostile to all doubt.

[OriginalGeek]

14. I think they all do

But some are terrified to admit it.

The ones who are most scared channel that terror into righteous indignation and stubborn declarations of over the top faith.

[bvf]

15. Calling doubt an essential part of faith is like

Last edited Sun Sep 28, 2014, 08:21 AM - Edit history (1)

calling ignorance an essential part of knowledge.

I see your point that there are degrees of doubt among those on the path to atheism and the rest who are simply looking for communal validation of their delusions.

Once you stop looking to others to tell you what to think, and start looking for clear justification for a mindset you've likely had drilled into your head since the time you acquired language, you're on your way to clarity.

Most theist "doubters" I know are of the superficial variety. Hell, they can wipe that doubt away with a quick trip to the confessional and three Hail Marys, IIRC. All better after that, as long as they say they're sorry and promise to try harder in the future. (I speak here from the perspective of a healed catholic for anyone having a hard time following.)

Seems to me that claiming that "doubt is an essential part of faith" is just a way to keep believers in line, or, to use a well-worn expression, whistling in the dark.

[trotsky]

17. "Whistling in the dark"

That's an excellent comparison.

[uriel1972]

16. I've seen the fear in the eyes of those beginning to have doubts...

Usually when the issue of rampant 'evil' loose in the world comes up. When bad things happen to good people. The justifications are strained and you know they have started down the path which leads to a thorny end (so to speak).
Most often the topic is changed and they scurry back to the shelter of faith. Yet I have seen the fear in their eyes.

[Heather MC]

18. they all do, they only don't realize they have been programed

To fall back to a default position that maintains their belief no matter what ex

"That's for god to know"
"Lean not on to your own understanding"
"I guess I will ask god that when I get to heaven"
"Do not question the will of god"

And so on.

The combination to breaking out of a god belief is more dificult to figure out than the most secure bank vault in the world.