What is going on inside the brains of some folks, anyway....

[theHandpuppet]

My first post to this forum but I have a question I've been wanting to ask for the longest time and it's regarding the fire and brimstone believers. Why would anyone in their right mind choose to worship a deity whom they believe to be so petty, so vindictive, so jealous and so violent that at the slightest provocation he/she would punish thousands of innocents with everything from tornados to disease, famine & war? What kind of mind can rationalize worshipping a deity who states if you don't show proper deference and adoration, you'll be tossed into a pit of fire to suffer unimaginable torment for an eternity? I've tried like hell to figure out how people buy into this kind of extremism but since it makes no rational sense I can only surmise this particular type of belief system is akin to a mental illness. Some might say that's cruel or unfair but I just can't explain it any other way. And if it is a type of psychological disorder I suppose I should be sympathetic but I'm just not.

So... do you think religious extremism could/should be classified as a psychological disorder? And should I feel guilty for just being fed up & disgusted with the lot of them?

[Warpy]

1. It's pretty much a war god and it makes them feel safer

in a world that has gotten both smaller and more dangerous.

[theHandpuppet]

3. I don't know why they would feel safer

Their God apparently kills pretty indiscriminately. Hell, he'll supposedly wipe out entire cities with hurricanes because he doesn't like gay folks, or send tornadoes down to kill people because someone filled their monthly prescription for the pill. If I believed in that kind of deity I'd spend my waking hours in abject terror of what he might consider to be the next offense.

[Warpy]

4. They just don't see it that way

Yeah, it sucks to be a newlywed couple on the vacation of a lifetime who were killed by a tsunami, sucks to live in a town in Oklahoma that was flattened, but hey, god's looking out for old number one! Hallelujah. Each disaster makes them feel safer, not more vulnerable to some capricious cosmic tween who keeps breaking his toys.

[theHandpuppet]

12. If they truly viewed this as a personal relationship...

... that is, a private one between them and their deity of choice I'd say have at it, everyone's gotta have a hobby or something innocuous that makes them feel good. But the intensity and ferocity with which the fundamentalists (of all stripes) want to legislate and lord their belief systems over everyone else just pisses me off no end. Yet it seems too many people tiptoe around these same folks because religion is involved. It's as if we not supposed to be mean or confrontational to god people, even when the stated goals of their faith(s) includes the oppressing others and legally forcing everyone to abide by their dogma. I just don't feel that obligation to be nice or to walk on eggshells around them though I've seen plenty who do, even on DU.

[Warpy]

15. Mainstream Christians enable the crazy ones

and they absolutely refuse to see it. That's the part that enrages me.

[theHandpuppet]

17. "Enable" was a very appropriate term.

Because that's what they are, enablers.

[FiveGoodMen]

18. In so far as they think they're right, they're not going to quit their beliefs

But they need to call out the crazy ones themselves.

(Of course that's the same as 'The Muslim world needs to keep its extremists in line')

[Warpy]

20. Mainstream Imams have been speaking out against their violent heretics

They just don't get as much press as a panel of mainstream church leaders would get if they did the same thing.

The local Imam has certainly spoken out from time to time. His mosque gets little vandalism, considering it's in my general area with a lot of taggers.

Christian leaders have been silent as a group. It's almost as if they're terrified of letting the crazies out from under the Christian umbrella Reagan set up.

[pscot]

2. You'll notice

all those awful things are supposed to happen to other people. The Believer has a get out of jail free card, but god is really going to wale on all those people you hate.

[theHandpuppet]

5. But of course these things happen to everyone

Then they simply have a thousand other ways to rationalize it. I have a couple of relatives who are fire & brimstone believers and you simply can't debate them.

[pscot]

6. Nor should you try

That said, I've had some luck arguing from the New Testament. Jesus was pretty progressive. He liked women and probably had gay followers, maybe even an apostle or two..

[LostOne4Ever]

7. I don't think most of them choose it

They are born into a family of believers and indoctrinated into it.

That is the way I grew up. I was told this and that about religion and since I was a child I believed my all knowing parents. Not only that but society as a whole has a horrible way of reinforcing that message over and over and over. For instance a 4 month long lead up to a holiday that insidiously tries to get one to throw their culture away and embrace the pen-ultimate holiday of the predominant religion. Or simple Saturday morning cartoons which have an episode of the "unhappy" nonbeliever finding god.

For those not born into it, they are probably sold the whole package by being told everything they want to hear and telling them they didn't need to think or worry about the bad stuff. Something like:

"Hell? That only happens to them horrible non-believers, we believers are special. We are all good and perfect and have white pearly teeth and those non-believers are evil heathens who would kill their own mother if it benefitted them in some way. Besides you will get to see your loved one who died and spend all eternity with them while sitting on clouds singing how-great-we-all-are cis boom bah!"

Or they are given the whole you are a bad bad person but if you accept this one condition god will forgive you and love you SEMI-unconditionally routine. I guess they never realize it is a type of mental torture designed solely to keep people from ever leaving.

Im not a mental health expert so I can't say on the last part. But I will try and venture a guess.

If you are talking about people like Andrea Yates, or the Branch Davidians, I would probably have to say yes. If you are talking about far right fundamentalist christians? There is something very definitely wrong with them but I don't think it qualifies as mental illness. If you are talking about someone like my very religious but also very liberal 2nd cousin or someone like Jimmy Carter? No, I don't think that qualifies.

Do I think you should feel guilty? Not at all. There is a lot of crappy shit that we have had to endure in this country and I don't blame you one bit. I think you are justified in being digusted and fed up, just don't take that to mean I condone going out and punching the lights out (or picking a fight in general) on some theist you don't know.

[theHandpuppet]

11. I'm basically referring to RW fundamentalists

I think we can pretty well say with certainty that the Branch Davidians, Andrea Yates, the Jim Jones cult et al are suffering from a mental illness. It's the RW fundamentalists I'm talking about and I'm not so sure they aren't getting a pass from being diagnosed with a psychological disorder. If their deity were of flesh and blood we'd be the first ones to encourage them to leave what is an obviously abusive relationship.

[Vashta Nerada]

8. Absolutely religious fundamentalism should be a psychological disorder.

It's not normal to be that extreme about anything.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. you just went on the enemies list.

[Vashta Nerada]

31. Oh well.

Truth hurts.

[mr blur]

9. Well, to answer your two questions -

Yes.
No.

[JNelson6563]

10. I think many believe they have no choice.

It's taught to them from they were in the cradle that this is absolute fact. I would bet that it would not even occur to many to *not* believe it. Too scary. Don't want to risk bible-god's wrath.

They aren't the ones that bother me so much, it's the ones are are much more adept intellectually and still choose to believe in the magic. And the mental gymnastics to disassociate their version of a god from the one in the bible, well those are something to behold! On the rare occasion I read the religion forum I often find myself thinking, when reading a believer's post, it sounds more like they are convincing/reassuring themselves more than anyone else.

Julie

[onager]

13. H.L. Mencken pretty much nailed it...

Sunday: A day given over by Americans to wishing that they themselves were dead and in Heaven, and that their neighbors were dead and in Hell.

[progressoid]

14. Lots of poeple have tried to figure it out.

It would be nice if it were something as simple as a gene mutation but I think it's more complicated and nuanced than that.

Frankly, I've stopped trying to figure them out. It's healthier (for me) to promote rationalism than to dwell on their problems.

[LiberalAndProud]

16. Is it simply an appeal to authority?

"You must live this way because I say so," is different than, "You must live this way or you will burn in hell." Since God's will almost always coincides with my own, that works well. The shepherds use the threat as a cudgel to direct the flock, it seems to me.

Maybe I think too simply.

[Curmudgeoness]

19. Could it be that they are so adamant in their beliefs

so that they do not spend eternity in hell with all the fire and brimstone??? Most believers were raised to be believers, and it takes a lot of thought and study to find how ridiculous their religion really is. I think that most of them do not spend much time thinking about it. I don't believe that it is a mental illness or a psychological disorder. I think that it is just too ingrained in our society and in their families for them to turn their back on their beliefs.

And welcome to the A&A group. Sounds like you fit right in. Don't be a stranger....you will find that we all have the same feelings as you do about this.

[awoke_in_2003]

21. Just because 70% believe

doesntbelieve doesn't mean it isn't a mental illness.

[Curmudgeoness]

22. Certainly you are not saying

that all believers are mentally ill, are you? As an ex-believer, I don't see it....it is simply a learned way of thinking, by not thinking much about it.

Now, if you are only referring to the Fred Phelps types, I will have to agree with you....but that is not 70%. And if you are suggesting 70% of the people are not "normal", we will have to define "normal" and "mentally ill", so I wouldn't go there.

[awoke_in_2003]

23. Yeah, that may be a bit harsh...

but they are captive to a crazy belief that permeates our society

[Curmudgeoness]

24. "permeates our society"

Now that is something that I can agree with you about. I have trouble understanding how it is so pervasive in this day and age. I know how it started, with people who could not explain the natural forces around them---the sun and stars, the volcano, earthquakes, floods. But as we learn more about the way things work, I don't know why society continues to look to gods for answers.

[awoke_in_2003]

25. maybe it was because

I didnt live in the bible belt at the time (lived in Ohio) but it wasn't like this 30 years ago.

[Curmudgeoness]

26. No, it wasn't.

I doubt that it was this way in the heart of the Bible Belt either. My opinion is that as more of us who are atheists speak out, we are frightening them. And that is what has them so worked up. I hope that it won't get worse, but I worry.

[awoke_in_2003]

27. I fear it will get worse...

Cornered animals are dangerous.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. oddly enough, the DSM does make that distinction.

Widely held delusional beliefs are not mental disorders. My guess is that the implications of not carving out the religious exception were politically unacceptable.

[Arugula Latte]

29. Another factor: the appeal of simplicity

God made the universe and controls everything. There's a plan for everything -- don't question. All that sciencey stuff is complicated and confusing -- disregard that.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

32. You have to have low self-esteem to be a Xtian.

John Bradshaw goes into this in his books like "Healing the Shame that Binds You".

A preacher telling you you're a worthless sinner because of two fruit munching nudist idiots in a fairy tale is not good psychology.

If you don't have original sin you don't need Jesus to "save" you. I don't know what save means.

It's creating a non-existent problem to sell you an unnecessary and theologically dubious solution.

Taking an asshole preacher seriously who talks about how sinful we all are drives some people over the edge. Some people get depressed, some people kill themselves because they can't live up to that perfect standard. It's an unrealistic contradictory cannibalistic death cult.

And a lot of people get the courage to leave and ignore the BS. It's mental and emotional abuse to crush the will of a child (or anyone) and leave them scared and fearful of the "EVIL" outside world so you can take their money.

We all make mistakes as we live our lives, because we don't know better. We don't need preachers under the fake guise of "helping us" telling us we're horrible and deserve to go to hell.