A question on empathy for fellow atheists and agnostics...

[Libertas1776]

Hello all,

I am just curious to find out your opinions on this subject. As an atheist or agnostic, do you feel you are more empathetic for humanity and the future of the world than your religious counterparts?

As an atheist/agnostic, I believe it to be true. In all likelihood, when I'm gone I'm GONE. Just worm chow and nothing more, back to the earth from which I came, where the flora and fauna will feed on me as I fed on them in life (paraphrasing Neil Degrasse Tyson there). The small agnostic part of me believes that maybe, just maybe there is the possibility of some other level of existence after death, on some other ethereal plane of existence, a fourth dimension of energy that we simply have not evolved enough not only to see but to even comprehend, sort of "God and afterlife" in no way comparable to the Abrahamic crap we have on Earth....So that, or even more simply, the place where Dogs go over the rainbow bridge! I like that one too. Of course, full disclosure, those latter thoughts are mostly for my own shits and giggles, and most my reason lies in the former most thought of worm chow.

And yet, despite all that, despite not being a jamoke who believes in the white bearded guy behind the pearly gates keeping a list of everything everyone who has ever existed has done like some sort of heavenly NSA! I still give a shit about people and even the bigger picture of humanity because as a human, I believe empathy is a natural part of the human condition, with the exception of mental defectives and religious fundy types (the two not always mutually exclusive.

Perhaps I'll posit an additional intriguing, albeit silly, question. If, for some scientific reason, (no messianic sacrifice nonsense) your death meant you could cure some worldwide debilitating illness, or for some reason would bring about world peace, or fuck I dunno, destroy an asteroid and thereby save humanity, would you do it knowing that you would never know how it turned out or that you wouldn't be able to, after playing the ultimate game of cosmic skee-ball, cash in an infinite shitload of prize tickets to win a stuffed animal so awesome it makes the Ark of the Covenant look like an old cigar box, would you do it? As for me, I'd probably have to say yes and do it, especially if I had kids of my own, but even if I didn't have any I still be hard pressed not to do it. And I'm someone, who despite having a great deal of empathy for humanity also has a misanthropic George Carlin outlook for the future, yet I'd still do it I guess, even if it only buys Man an extra few centuries on Earth.

Your thoughts, ideas, opinions, etc?

[dimbear]

1. Empathy is part of our natural heritage, just as the dolphins and

elephants show it, so do we. Animals that live in groups have to have ways to get along and keep the group going.

[Warpy]

2. How do we know how empathetic anyone else is?

I'm not a mind reader, Jim, I'm an atheist.

Besides, there are different flavors of atheist like bleeding heart liberal atheists and stone cold selfish Randorrhoid atheists just like there are different flavors of religious people.

[Libertas1776]

3. I should have been more clear...

My original post included basically what you said in a sentence what I couldn't shorten down to even a paragraph, so I cut it out, but I wholeheartedly agree what you said. There are plenty of, as you put it, "Ranorrhoid" atheists as there are Randorrhoid religious people. On the other side of the coin there are bleeding heart liberal atheists and yes, bleeding heart liberal religious people. Well, maybe not bleeding heart but at least liberal.

My point was that, while religious or not, most people are empathetic, however, in the back of the minds of many religious people (not everyone, but many) there is an extra benefit to that empathy and doing good deeds. That extra benefit is that it places you in a better position in the "afterlife." I think most people, religious or not, do good things unconsciously, but there are some religious people who do some more major things consciously, for the sake of their "soul." For a non religious person, an atheist or an agnostic, that other worldly concern isn't fully there or there at all. The "good things" are done for the sake of goodness.

[OriginalGeek]

10. "Randorrhoid "

Awesome! I'm stealing that. I don't even feel bad about stealing it either.

[Warpy]

11. As far as I know, it's mine

because I've been using it for decades after thinking it up when I got euchred into going to one of their meetings in high school.

However, everything posted here is public domain so have at it.

[LostOne4Ever]

4. Empathy

"I am just curious to find out your opinions on this subject. As an atheist or agnostic, do you feel you are more empathetic for humanity and the future of the world than your religious counterparts? "

I can't speak for others (and im sure there are some that disagree), but I definitely feel more empathy now than I did when I was a believer.

I feel nearly certain that when we die that is it, we cease to exist. No heaven. No hell. No purgatory. Nothing. We return to the way things were before we were born. So, to me, people are important and its vital that we try and make this world the best world we possibly can while we are here.

Before, when we died god would correct all inequities, and would bring justice to the wronged. Now, I realize there is no justice in this world. People die meaningless deaths and in vain. So if we want any form of justice we have to bring it about ourselves. Prayers do nothing, if we want change we have to bring it about ourselves.

So in this way I feel that my lack of belief has only emphasized my empathy, my idealism, and my concern for others.

"If, for some scientific reason, (no messianic sacrifice nonsense) your death meant you could cure some worldwide debilitating illness, or for some reason would bring about world peace, or fuck I dunno, destroy an asteroid and thereby save humanity, would you do it knowing that you would never know how it turned out or that you wouldn't be able to, after playing the ultimate game of cosmic skee-ball, cash in an infinite shitload of prize tickets to win a stuffed animal so awesome it makes the Ark of the Covenant look like an old cigar box, would you do it?"

Honestly?

I do not know. It is easy to sit here and say "yeah in a heartbeat." But being confronted by such a situation in real life is far different. I have been only a couple of life or death situations in my life and I was so terrified that I could barely move. Its not a situation you can easily put yourself in and know for sure how you will act.

I want to say I would. I believe in the saying "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and see myself as a consequentialist, but I don't believe anyone can know for sure till placed into that very situation.

[Libertas1776]

5. I agree with you

I can't speak for others (and im sure there are some that disagree), but I definitely feel more empathy now than I did when I was a believer.

I absolutely agree with that. I cared when I was religious, but now I believe I feel more empathy too. Plus, when you separate yourself from religious indoctrination, you look on the world so much more differently. Instead of just saying, "oh, well yeah it's bad that that's happening to them but they're *insert religion and not *insert other religion like we are. In the end, let God sort them out." It's fascinating to think about if there were more atheist Palestinians and atheist Israelis, how they would react to each other. There would still be reasonable gripes on both sides based from real world problems, but they could work them out as reason human beings. It's that extra sprinkle of god into the mix that seems to kill the empathy and build up the hostility. Then again, that's the world under religion in a nutshell.


As for the last question, it was meant to be outlandish but still make you think. There really isn't a right or wrong answer. Are there religious people who would do the same? I am sure there are. Are religious people who wouldn't? I am sure there are too. What I think should be taken from the discussion is that there are non religious people who would be willing, when push comes to shove, to do it, and it doesn't require the inspiration of a god or afterlife to make that sacrifice.

[LostOne4Ever]

6. Im with you there

It might not stop the violence there but it would make it so that the hate involved was not as bitter.

Every time I hear about the "holy" land I can't help but think that so much blood, misery, pain, and hate has been spilled there that it surely washed away anything that might have been "holy" about that worthless piece of dirt long ago.

In my opinion if they truly believe the land was sacred as they claim both sides would avoid corrupting it with such violence.

[Brainstormy]

8. In terms of empathy,

I found that I had much more of it after reading Sam Harris's last book, Free Will. Maybe not at first. Initially it is a terrifying book. But ultimately it leaves the reader with no choice but to realize that almost all of what happens to us is just dumb luck. Harris, of course, would not phrase it exactly that way, but it amounts to the same thing. When you really, fully comprehend this, you can't help but be empathetic to everyone whose circumstances are less desirable than yours. And by that I mean anyone, everyone who has done "evils" you can't comprehend.

What was also interesting about surviving the book is that I realized that as a thoroughgoing atheist I was still holding on to ideas about morality that were routed in religion, not science.

[Hissyspit]

7. Freakwater, 'Old Paint:' 1995 "There's nothing so pure as the kindess of an atheist"

[cynatnite]

9. I do have a trekker's hope for the future....

I think we will eventually figure it out that our best chance is to work on improving the world for the generations that follow us. I personally think that should be all of humanity's goal.

If we're to have a snowball's chance in surviving this 9-ball game in the universe, we've got to put all this petty crap of self-serving religions and other selfishness behind us.

As far as if atheists/agnostics are more empathetic...sometimes it seems like it, but often I do find religious types individually have just as much empathy as myself for the most part.

[salimbag]

12. Empathy for all

I seem to feel empathy for all beings, certainly after the sometimes immediate reaction to stupidity, greed, and vile behavior in the world. After being initially angered or disgusted, I can reflect on the human condition and relate to the sadness and fear that causes such behavior. We are still in the process of evolution...be patient !!!