Skinner congratulating DU Catholics for the new Pope...

[MellowDem]

really depresses me. It shows that religion (Catholicism especially) gets a pass on this site like no other philosophy does. I can't imagine anyone here, much less Skinner, congratulaing anyone for the appointment of a misogynist, homophobic leader to a new position without getting some serious hell for it.

Why does it get a pass? Is it just because it's considered so mainstream? Is it just a cynical way to make the DU tent bigger? I don't get it.

[skepticscott]

1. It really is mystifying

Especially since that sort of thing is not expected from him by anyone here, and his failure to make any comment on the new pope would probably not even be noticed. Threads involving religion are normally shunted off the front pages.

[uriel1972]

14. It did strike me as odd

and made me feel a little less inclined to pony up for a star, that and all the anti-lgbt bigotry

[Warren Stupidity]

2. Don't get me started.

[mr blur]

3. Perhaps we can look forward to a wave of 'official' DU congratulations posts,

when American Atheists or the British Humanist Association gets a new President? That would be cool.

[Arugula Latte]

4. I don't get it either.

There is protective bubble around religions, no matter what repressive shit they push and try to get enacted in public policy, because they're someone's "Faith." Oh, okay.

Also, Will Pitt used to know a super nice priest so lay off Catholicism, okay?

[skepticscott]

7. Just as most people like their own

lawyer or public school or congresscritter while condemning the system in general, lots of Catholics think their own priest (Father "Mike" or Father "Jim" or whatever) is just great, while claiming to dislike the RCC as a whole.

[Apophis]

5. They say it's because Catholicism has 1.2 billion followers.

What that means is that there are 6.2 billion people who don't follow Catholicism.

Why do they get a free pass? Good question.

[Rob H.]

6. I don't get it, either.

The church selected a guy who's a homophobic misogynist just like his predecessor, and that's supposed to be celebrated? To hear some Catholic DUers tell it, though, anti-Catholicism is the only acceptable prejudice on these boards. (Bill Donahue would be so proud of them!) Anyone saying that clearly didn't see the rampant displays of over-the-top dickishness that erupted in GD when some DUers said that all the religious talk in President Obama's inauguration ceremony made them uncomfortable. "OMG! IT'S TRADITION AND MOST PEOPLE ARE RELIGIOUS AND YOU ATHEISTS ARE WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!"

[dorkulon]

8. Face it--everybody's religious.

Even people who aren't are usually "spiritual" (making it up as they go).

If DU (or Democrats) alienate the religious, you can say goodbye to any kind of effectiveness or relevance in American politics.

I'm not sure if that counts as cynical or just realistic. There are more exclusive boards for atheists; this just isn't one of them.

[Curmudgeoness]

9. No, everybody is not religious

even in a spiritual way. Maybe "almost everybody". I won't speak for others.

I think that you missed the point of the OP. It was not that anyone expected Skinner to alienate the religious. The point is that the OP didn't see the need for a congratulation, or any comment one way or the other.

[dorkulon]

12. "Almost everybody" is what I meant. Not me though.

Just saying, there's not enough of us to around.

As to the pope, I really don't care. But I guess if people want to be happy about it, I don't care about that either.

[mr blur]

10. Nor is it exclusively a board for Catholics or, indeed, the religious.

No, everybody is not religious. No-one's talking about alienating them, just not according them the special privilege that they've come to demand as their due.

[Iggo]

11. Um...no.

[JanMichael]

13. wanna see something really depressing

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3504587#3504634

note the replies...

I want to know why this new guy gets a free pass...note the comments from Will Pitt in particular.

[skepticscott]

15. Interesting..makes me wonder

If the Catholics here are so tired of having to defend the church and their support of it that they'll go to any lengths of self-delusion to convince themselves that the new guy will be different.

[JanMichael]

16. Who knows. I got piled on

I didn't write anything about Catholics, or faith...just that I was sorry for the RW new Pope. That's it. google April 19, 2005 DemocraticUnderground. One of the first threads that pops up from the archives is titled "fuck the pope."

Why the change is beyond me.... Even WillPitt wrote in the thread I linked to that he didn't mind so much that Benedict was RW because he expected him to die soon?

[uriel1972]

17. I have no doubt that is what it is

The hope that the new POPEMAN! will make all the bad things go away. It won't work though.

[Arugula Latte]

18. Oh, but he's a wonderful person, though!

So there's that!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=427138

[skepticscott]

19. It's funny too

That when people criticize this guy for his stances on things like women and gays, they get a response along the lines of "give him a break, he just took the job a few days ago", but people who gush about what a wonderful pope he's going to be apparently know more than enough about him to be sure of that, despite having not seen him on the job any longer than his critics.

[JNelson6563]

20. Here's an unpopular notion...

As you may know, I grew up Catholic. I'm one of those rare birds who got only positive out of my association with the church.

Ok, with that said, let me explain something: As a Catholic it's all about the religious teachings. You don't feel as one with Rome, you may go your whole life without seeing a Bishop or any high ranking church official. You give little to no thought to Rome. It's about the "sacraments" that are unique to the RCC.

It is unbelievably easy to ignore the rest of the church while practicing your faith. And if you hail from a particularly liberal parish, as I did, you find the hatred for Catholicism (once you're out in the world) rather puzzling and a bit frightening.

Let's be honest with each other here. On DU you cannot mention the word "Catholic" without a big pile-on of hateful remarks. Perhaps Skinner was trying to simply send out a positive word to DU's Catholics to try something new for a change.

Look, I know all about the church's failings, hell who doesn't? But hammering on DU Catholics over them is like people of France trash talking every single American for the Iraq war.

Carry on.

Julie

[Ron Obvious]

21. Every American...

But hammering on DU Catholics over them is like people of France trash talking every single American for the Iraq war.

Every American who still supports Bush anyway. See the parallel?

[cleanhippie]

22. That is a flawed analogy.

Catholics have the option of not giving time, money, and support to their church. When they continue to fill the pews and the coffers that keep this horrible institution alive and relevant, then they are enabling the policies and behaviors of those running it.

And that makes them complicit.

[JNelson6563]

24. Holding the beliefs doesn't equal

supporting the church.

I know many who no longer do such things (donate money, especially) but consider themselves Catholics because of their beliefs.

I'm an American, I live here, was born here and will die here. I vote, pay taxes and try to be active in civics. Yet my country's government has done and continues to do horrible things. What does that make me?

I don't have any love for religion, period. I think the world would be better off without it. Of course the hatred propagated by our side of the divide (supposedly the enlightened side) has not helped the situation or our own credibility on the topic.

If this makes you want to post another puke-y emoticon, I apologized for having inspired another round of nausea.

Julie

[skepticscott]

23. I take your points, but consider this example

Suppose you see a friend of yours at the store buying clothes, and you see that the brand they're buying is from a company that has been shown to use slave labor in their overseas factories. Presuming that they probably care about such things, you point this out, and they say "wow, I didn't realize that". Ok, no problem...it's probably not reasonable to expect someone to know everything about every business in the supply chain of everything they buy. But then suppose you see them at the store a few months later, and they're loading up on the same brand, after having been made aware of its source. At that point, aren't you likely to regard them less favorably (even if you don't say so openly, though you might), particularly if they have other options open to them?

We make those types of judgements (and even condemnations) of people and organizations on matters of economic and social justice all the time on DU. But it seems like quite a few people here think that Catholicism (and religion in general) should not be held to the same standard, even though, as you point out, it's hardly possible for DU Catholics not to be aware of the Church's many failings. That's the problem many of us have.

How's the weather up in TC?

[JNelson6563]

25. Pretty mild here in paradise today!

Hiya Scott!

Frankly I'd be astonished if DU Catholics were held to the same standard as other believers here. I think they too would be shocked at the kinder, gentler way they'd be treated if such a thing should ever happen.

Give my best to the Mrs.! I'm off to celebrate St. Patty's in pagan, unholy ways!

Julie

[Ron Obvious]

26. I just don't see the anti-Catholic bigotry...

Frankly I'd be astonished if DU Catholics were held to the same standard as other believers here. I think they too would be shocked at the kinder, gentler way they'd be treated if such a thing should ever happen.

I'm just not seeing this anti-Catholic bigotry I keep hearing about. Just criticism of the beliefs & actions of the church. Those are not innate immutable characteristics of an individual like skin colour or sexual orientation.

To criticise and even mock the religious beliefs and actions of an institution just isn't bigotry in my book.

As for the 'same standard', I daresay Judaism & Islam gets too much of a pass because people fear being branded a racist, but loonie institutions like the Mormon Church and Scientology don't exactly get a lot of respect around here and neither should they. Other Christian sects are too diverse to present a single leadership as a target for scorn.

[JNelson6563]

29. Yes, there are many standards.

Couldn't agree more with your last statement.

As to anti-Catholic "bigotry", the word "Catholic" cannot be dropped into a discussion here without the obligatory "pedophile supporters!1!" and such soon to follow. At least that's what I've noticed.

Downtown was quite the party today. Lots of sunshine and with a few cocktails, one didn't notice the chill quite so much!

Julie

[skepticscott]

30. Glad to hear it!

It's been a while since we've been up there this time of year, and we didn't engage in any revelry when we did, sad to say. I think we'll wait until the snow melts to venture up this year, maybe over Memorial Day.

[BainsBane]

27. Catholics don't buy anything

Religion is not a financial transaction, and Catholics in parishes don't contribute economically to the Vatican or Church hierarchy, unlike American taxpayers who fund war and assassination abroad, or American consumers generally. There is no way you and I don't contribute to massive labor exploitation through consumption. It's not limited to certain brands. What's clear is that people here single Catholics out as targets of their animosity while refusing to acknowledge their own complicity in human rights atrocities.

Skinner is making a distinction between the Church hierarchy and Democratic Catholics. It's not a difficult concept for an educated person to adopt. The problem is a lot of people are willfully ignorant and make a point of learning as little as possible about people they scapegoat.

[skepticscott]

28. Adult Catholics voluntarily support and attend the church

They won't be charged with a crime or put in prison if they don't give money or if they stop going, so your taxpayer analogy is horseshit (again).

And as pointed out very clearly, no...people here DON'T "single out" Catholics. Quote: "We make those types of judgements (and even condemnations) of people and organizations on matters of economic and social justice all the time on DU." In a thread where Catholics or the Catholic Church hierarchy are being talked about and praised, then their particular failings are fair game as well, but it's simply false to say that they are the only ones on this site to attract that type of criticism. Or that people here don't acknowledge what's done in the name of the country they are citizens of.

[BainsBane]

33. If they donate

it is to their local parish and specific outreach efforts to the poor, which are specified at the time of collection. So unless someone's local priest is a pedophile, parishioners are not contributing financially to pedophilia.

Your point about a crime doesn't even make sense. I don't even know what you think you are saying and how that relates to people going to church.

Moreover, 2/3 of American Catholics no longer attend mass. People have quit going. Would it be too much to expect posters here to bother to inform themselves on a minimal level about people they so despise?

I will again note that people quick to point the finger at others accept NO responsibility for their own financial contributions and votes for governments that kill and inflict other human rights atrocities. That goes for me as well, but I am not the one insistent on pointing the finger at others while ignoring my own role in promoting injustice as an American taxpayer and consumer.

[truebrit71]

42. Yeah, because paying taxes is EXACTLY the same as voluntarily putting money in the collection plate.

...that is a FAIL of almost biblical proportions...

[skepticscott]

43. Seriously? You really don't get the difference

between doing something voluntarily and doing it because you could be arrested if you don't? Sheesh.

And please..enlighten us...all of those tens of millions of Catholics are so disenchanted with the church that they never even attend mass, and yet so in love with it that they just can't bear to leave, can't bear to call themselves anything else, in spite of it being a corrupt, sexist homophobic organization? Your explanation for that should be a doozy.

[backscatter712]

31. BULLSHIT! Anti-gay-marriage campaign cash has come straight out of Catholic collection plates.

http://hrc.org/nomexposed/section/the-catholic-hierarchys-devotion-to-fighting-marriage-equality

The Roman Catholic Hierarchy’s Devotion to Fighting Marriage Equality

The Roman Catholic Church and its affiliate, the Knights of Columbus, played a leading role in funding anti-LGBT equality efforts in the four states where marriage equality was on the ballot this fall. The Church hierarchy invested nearly $2 million in the failed attempts to write discrimination into the Minnesota constitution and stem marriage equality in Maine, Maryland, and Washington. Dioceses from across the country supported these efforts financially, thought it’s doubtful that the parishioners fueling these contributions had any idea that their money was being used to fund discrimination.

According to Public Religion Research Institute, nearly 60 percent of Catholics support marriage equality. And an astounding 83 percent of Catholics in the United States say they don’t feel compelled to vote in accordance with the political preaching of bishops. These numbers from the laity represent people who, whether they know it or not, are living out their faith daily - Catholic social teaching promotes treating everyone with love, dignity, and respect.

But despite the values of the laity, the Catholic Church hierarchy is pouring immense resources into preventing loving, committed same-sex couples from marrying. . In fact, in the wake of last week’s historic victories for equality, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops doubled down and vowed to continue funding efforts to discriminate against LGBT people. The Roman Catholic Church will make these investments at the same time and with the same dollars that would otherwise go to support soup kitchens, homeless shelters and domestic violence programs.

I don't have a problem with individuals of the Catholic faith - as has been repeatedly pointed out in multiple flame-fests, most regular parisioners support gay marriage and GLBT rights. But the hierarchy does not, and spends millions, much of it straight out of tithes, to campaign against gay-marriage, and promote ballot initiatives across the nation that deny rights to the GLBT community.

And yes, many of those dollars can be traced back to individual churches.

[BainsBane]

32. Your post provides no evidence of that

It doesn't say money comes form the collection plate. Parishes are self-supporting. The evidence you provide shows that most Catholics support gay marriage.
The money the Catholic hierarchy has comes from investments, not from the collection plate. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

If you can trace them back to the parishes, do so.

I spent about a 9 month period of my life attending mass regularly. At that time, there were separate collections for the parish and outreach to the poor. I generally gave to the latter.

[backscatter712]

34. The parishes exist at the sole discretion of the hierarchy.

Every parish is a member of a diocese, which in turn, is a member of an archdiocese, which in turn, answers to Francis.

Depending on the wealth of the individual parish & its members, parishes either get money from the diocese/archdiocese/Vatican (if they're really poor), or they are required to give money to the hierarchy. Details are scarce because being a church, the RCC doesn't file tax returns or publicize much of its financial records.

While some (or most - the RCC's finances are complex, opaque, and frequently corrupt) of the hierarchy's money comes from the investments you speak of, a great deal of the money comes from tithes from regular members.

You keep telling me that what happens in the parish stays in the parish. I don't buy it. If a church gets anything resembling a meaningful income from tithes at all, a piece of that goes up the ladder to the diocese, archdiocese or the Vatican. And then a piece of that goes to funding homophobic crap like anti-gay-marriage campaigns.

http://www.economist.com/node/21560536

Earthly concerns

The Catholic church is as big as any company in America. Bankruptcy cases have shed some light on its finances and their mismanagement
Aug 18th 2012 | BOSTON, NEW YORK AND SAN DIEGO |From the print edition

OF ALL the organisations that serve America’s poor, few do more good work than the Catholic church: its schools and hospitals provide a lifeline for millions. Yet even taking these virtues into account, the finances of the Catholic church in America are an unholy mess. The sins involved in its book-keeping are not as vivid or grotesque as those on display in the various sexual-abuse cases that have cost the American church more than $3 billion so far; but the financial mismanagement and questionable business practices would have seen widespread resignations at the top of any other public institution.

The sexual-abuse scandals of the past 20 years have brought shame to the church around the world. In America they have also brought financial strains. By studying court documents in bankruptcy cases, examining public records, requesting documents from local, state and federal governments, as well as talking to priests and bishops confidentially, The Economist has sought to quantify the damage.

The picture that emerges is not flattering. The church’s finances look poorly co-ordinated considering (or perhaps because of) their complexity. The management of money is often sloppy. And some parts of the church have indulged in ungainly financial contortions in some cases—it is alleged—both to divert funds away from uses intended by donors and to frustrate creditors with legitimate claims, including its own nuns and priests. The dioceses that have filed for bankruptcy may not be typical of the church as a whole. But given the overall lack of openness there is no way of knowing to what extent they are outliers.

Thousands of claims for damages following sexual-abuse cases, which typically cost the church over $1m per victim, according to lawyers involved, have led to a liquidity crisis. This seems to have encouraged a pre-existing trend towards replacing dollars from the faithful with publicly raised debt as a way of financing church business. The church is also increasingly keen to defend its access to public health-care subsidies while claiming a right not to provide certain medical services to which it objects, such as contraception. This increased reliance on taxpayers has not been matched by increased openness and accountability. The church, like other religious groups in America, is not subject to the same disclosure requirements as other non-profits or private entities.

I might add that the link I provided in the previous post shows that funds for anti-LGBT-marriage campaigns have come directly from dioceses and individual churches across the nation.

From that link:

Minnesota (via Minnesota Campaign Finance & Public Disclosure Board)

In Minnesota, the Catholic Church has funded nearly 25 percent of the efforts to write discrimination against LGBT people into the state constitution.

Of the $5.6 million that anti-equality advocates have raised, nearly $1.3 million came from the Church and the Knights. That includes a sizable contribution from the Minnesota Catholic Conference Marriage Defense Fund (MCCMDF). Dioceses from across the country, as well as the national Knights of Columbus and a number of local Minnesota Knights chapters, were major contributors to the MCCMDF. These contributions included:

$100,000 from the national Knights of Columbus
Nearly $15,000 from the Minnesota Knights of Columbus State Council
Nearly $20,000 from local Knights of Columbus chapters across Minnesota
More than $180,000 from dioceses across the nation:
$1,000 – Archdiocese of Anchorage
$1,500 – Archdiocese of Boston
$2,000 – Archdiocese of Denver
$5,000 – Archdiocese of Kansas City
$1,000 – Archdiocese of Mobile
$1,000 – Archdiocese of Oklahoma City
$1,000 – Archdiocese of Portland
$1,000 – Diocese of Albany
$1,000 – Diocese of Arlington
$500 – Diocese of Austin
$3,000 – Diocese of Baton Rogue
$1,000 – Diocese of Bismarck
$50,000 – Diocese of Crookston, MN
$2,000 – Diocese of Des Moines
$1,000 – Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend
$1,000 – Diocese of Gary
$2,000 – Diocese of Green Bay
$2,000 – Diocese of Harrisburg
$2,000 – Diocese of Lake Charles
$1,000 – Diocese of Madison
$2,000 – Diocese of Pittsburgh
$1,000 – Diocese of Phoenix
$2,000 – Diocese of Providence
$1,000 – Diocese of Rapid City
$1,000 – Diocese of Rockford
$2,000 – Diocese of Rockville Centre
$2,000 – Diocese of Saint Augustine
$150 – Diocese of San Angelo
$1,000 – Diocese of Springfield-Cape Girardeau
$62,602.77 – Diocese of St. Cloud, MN
$50,000 – Diocese of St. Cloud, MN
$1,000 – Diocese of Superior
$50,000 – Diocese of Winona, MN
$60,000 – Diocese of Winona, MN

[BainsBane]

35. A couple of points

You provide no evidence of how diocese are financed. The first text you provide does not support the point you make at the beginning of your post.

I live in MN and I canvassed to keep that amendment from being passed. Catholics voted against it, as did the local Muslim population, which is significant. Look at the Secretary of State's website for votes on the amendment by neighborhood. If you know the cities, you know where most Irish Catholics and Muslims live. Those precincts voted overwhelmingly to reject the amendment.

You provide evidence that the diocese outstate contributed to the marriage amendment, but you don't have evidence of how they acquired that money. Interestingly, the area of the state with the largest Catholic population, St. Paul, is not listed above.

[backscatter712]

36. All of the dioceses in the U.S. get some of their funding from their member parishes.

There's even a Latin word for it: cathedraticum.

Sure, there are other sources, but every year, dioceses rake in billions from collection plates across the country. And then those same dioceses wrote checks to bankroll anti-gay-marriage political campaigns.

The fact is that when you put money in the plate on Sunday, you're financing hate.

[BainsBane]

37. You haven't provided evidence for that

You assert it but provide no evidence. Also a diocese is limited to a local area.

I understand that your only concern is cultural issues, but the Catholic Church does a lot of work with the poor. In fact, Catholic Charities are among the largest, if not largest, charitable organization working with the poor in the US. They work with the homeless, drug addicts, AIDS patients, gay and straight Americans, provide mental health counseling for very low fees. They run soup kitchens and homeless shelters. And none of it is restricted to Catholics or requires praying or attending mass to receive services. It's part of the faith's core emphasis on social justice.

[backscatter712]

38. I provided plenty of evidence.

Read those two articles again. I'm done arguing with you.

[BainsBane]

39. the articles didn't cite what you claim they did

In fact they provided evidence of Catholic opposition to the views the church hierarchy promotes.

[backscatter712]

40. You want a specific example...

http://stelizabeth.org/faqs/#1

How much of my money goes to the Diocese?
To fund the many Diocesan programs and offices in Rockville Centre, the Diocese assesses each parish 8% of regular collections. Regular collections includes Sunday, Holy Day, Easter and Christmas collections.
The Diocese does not assess contributions which are donated for an approved capital campaign or donated for a specific program, such as Parish Outreach.

That's from one particular church, though I'm guessing that most parishes in the U.S. send a similar amount to their dioceses.

That's money directly from the collection plates to the dioceses. And above, I provided plenty of evidence of money directly from dioceses to hate politics.

And yes, the result is that decent people in the Catholic Church who are supportive of LGBT and women's reproductive rights put money in the plate, and inadvertently finance a deeply homophobic and misogynistic agenda, not to mention the covering for child molestation. The sick thing is that while the RCC tries to insulate the laity from learning of the final destinations of some of their donations, when it comes time to pay bills, the archbishops stick the bill on local parishes, making them go bankrupt, while the Vatican and the hierarchy are protected.

The Catholic Church hierarchy doesn't give a shit what its laity thinks.

[skepticscott]

41. But...but..

You haven't provided any EVIDENCE!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

45. I'm going to tell you this only once

If you're here in the Atheists & Agnostics safe-haven group to defend the Catholic church, you're in the wrong place. Your religion isn't given any deference here, and neither will you be given special treatment because of your beliefs. My advice to you is to pack up your things and move on.

[Act_of_Reparation]

44. Rape isn't a "cultural issue", it's a crime...

... and the Catholic Church is using money donated by Catholics to shield rapist priests from prosecution, and to cover the legal defenses for those dioceses embroiled in rape-related lawsuits.

But I guess we should give the church a free pass on all of that, seeing as they do a lot of charity work.

[amuse bouche]

47. "The problem is a lot of people are willfully ignorant "

Oh I agree. Nothing more ignorant than believing in magical sky fairies.

Dumbest of the dumb

[amuse bouche]

46. If you want to cheer up

go follow some fabulous atheists on twitter
Start with @godless spellchecker and work your way around. He's from the UK. From down under ...Donovan ?@MrOzAtheist


There are atheists from Pakistan and ex-Muslims that will give you some first hand insight.

There are some very brave people out there and some have a wicked sense of humor