No wonder the religious right has run amok with impugnity...

[Act_of_Reparation]

Last edited Sun Feb 3, 2013, 03:16 PM - Edit history (1)

When you have virtually everyone on the left denying religion is any part of the problem.

Why can't the religious left counter the religious right?

Why, atheists are to blame! Apparently, we should shut the fuck up because questioning religion "divides the movement", never you mind that the first people to speak out against the religious right has always been atheists and agnostics.

Never mind that whenever an atheist opens his or her mouth about these clowns, the first people to shoot at us are our fellow liberals, who accuse us of bigotry and "painting religion with too broad a brush."

[Rob H.]

1. Of course it religion isn't part of the problem!

Don't you know that all religion has ever been responsible for is puppy breath, chocolate, rainbows and literally all of everything else good and just that's happened since the beginning of time?

Why, slavery would never have been abolished if not solely because religious people stood against it, never mind that the bible abolitionists used is exactly the same bible slavery proponents used. And it's just a coincidence that the bible got one of the most easily-answered questions human history--"Is it immoral to own other people?"---wrong, it even gives very specific instructions about who can be made slaves and how they should be treated. Coincidence, that's all that is!

And of course, non-believers only point out the faults and misdeeds of religion and religious people because we're all secretly working on behalf of the Republican fundagelical lunatics. (even more )


Edited to add: On a happier (and less ranty) note, welcome to DU!

[Curmudgeoness]

2. There is a lot of truth in what you say.

If I were part of the religious community, I would be up in arms about the way that the right has hijacked religion. I can understand why the religious liberals have a problem with atheists, since they question the whole idea of god, but I don't understand why liberals do not try to take back the true principles of Christianity.

[Act_of_Reparation]

3. I'm not so sure about the "true principals of Christianity" bit...

... by which I mean, I'm not entirely convinced the overriding message of Christianity is entirely positive. But that's a topic for another thread.

At any rate, you would think religious liberals would nevertheless be up in arms about the clowns trying to take their religion back to the Dark Ages, but all they ever seem to do is make excuses for them. The most vitriolic reaction we seem to get from believers whenever the issue of the religious right is raised is, "Not all Christians are like that."

We know not all Christians are like that. "All Christians" are not the problem. Instead of getting on our case for raising these issues, why the hell can't they muster the wherewithal to actually address them head on? Why are we the bad guys for bringing the matter up in the first place?

[Curmudgeoness]

4. You are asking that question to the wrong person.

Or wrong people. But it is a question that I have asked a number of times. I am baffled by the whole thing.

And along the lines of "all Christians are not like that", it seems to me that it is moving more and more toward the attitude of the right wing being the rule instead of the exception. It's kind of like this country, moving further and further to the right so that a moderate liberal from the past would be an ultra-liberal today. Many of my Christian friends are concerned about the movement in their own churches, where it used to be a focus on Jesus and his teachings, and is starting to go into the political. So to the people who say that all Christians are not like that, I caution them to be vigilant to these slight changes in their own churches.

[BlueJazz]

5. My main reason for despising religion is it has cost myself and loved ones plus..

...all of humanity, a longer lifetime.
Think how much further we would have been (in the fields of medicine and science), if the dark ages had not happened.

[Zoeisright]

15. Oh, exactly.

I've always thought that the reason math and physics are more advanced than medicine and biology is that the religious nuts can't understand math and physics, so didn't know what to ban.

[trotsky]

6. Oh, and don't forget...

While they shout us down and silence us, they admonish us for not supporting liberal believers enough. Because without a handful of atheists on the Internet voicing their admiration and support for liberal religious movements, they will fail. DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?!?

[Act_of_Reparation]

8. It's typical "blame the minority" nonsense...

...if you were to take out "atheist" and substitute any other minority group into her comment, She Who Shall Not Be Named would have been permabanned before anyone had the chance to reply.

[mr blur]

7. I couldn't care less whether believers are liberal or conservative -

they all believe the same astonishing drivel.

And "progressive" believers? Who gives a fuck if their view of this drivel is more "progressive" that that of the average Fundie? It's still ludicrous fantasy whatever colour it is.

[dmallind]

10. True as stated, but not the point IMO

Jains believe astonishing drivel, as do Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists etc etc. I couldn't care less about that. The majority Christians are a problem where the aforementioned are not because they seek to either impose their religious preferences into law and the body politic, or to run interference for those who do, or at the very least to refuse to challenge them where their chances of success far exceed ours. I have no way to know if a hypothetical 76% Buddhist US would seek to do the same for Buddhism. I'm guessing they might, but it's not really the point. It's not Buddhists/Jains/Taoists who are leading the fight against equal rights, against scientific advances, against choice and against reason. It's Christians. Always, and every time. THAT's what I could care much less about.

Couldn't give a toss if every human being on earth but me thought that The Almighty Johnsons is a documentary as long as they didn't want to make me believe it too and impose the reimagined principles of the Norse pantheon onto secular society.

[trotsky]

11. But some mean atheists are making fun of religion on the Internet!

If only they'd stop, then liberal believers could totally counter the right wing fundies! I'm SERIES, you guyz! LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!

[mr blur]

13. Fair points! nt

[dimbear]

9. There's a long long history of this in every civil rights struggle. The more radical

element, (which would be we) gets told to sit down and shut up. See feminism or abolitionism for countless examples, some of which are very famous and honored today. Also, some are forgotten by most by hopefully not by us.

[Promethean]

12. I would be happy to let liberal churches denounce the religious right.

Except that they don't. There very rarely is a backlash against the religious right's BS from other co religionists.

Why is that? The only reason I can think of is that the right pulls its crap from the same book that the less insane also claim to follow. Nobody has ever given me a satisfactory alternative or shown me that this conclusion is incorrect which leaves me with the next logical leap. That religion is simply evil and even good people that are suckered into following it can't nay say it out of fear of no longer being a good whatever of their religion.

[trotsky]

14. Oh, certain DUers know exactly why they don't.

It's because there are a few atheists posting mean things about religion on the Internet. If only they would stop, and praise liberal believers and their efforts to replace right-wing Christian reasons for doing things with left-wing Christian reasons for doing different things, THEN the liberal believers could finally speak out and combat the religious right.

(BTW, your conclusion is the one I agree with.)

[Fix The Stupid]

16. Maybe because, deep down, they agree with the catholic church?

This is really the only conclusion I can come away with.

They can't out and out say that homosexuals are evil spawns of satan on this site - but you can express support, tithe, etc., for a worldwide conglomerate that DOES BELIEVE & PREACH that very same position, without appearing to be a homophobe.

It's like saying you are a member of the KKK but really, really like black people. Wtf?

[SpartanDem]

17. Maybe it's they're busy putting their money where there mouths are

Last edited Fri Mar 22, 2013, 02:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I've worked in political community organizing positions for the past 6 years and it's brought me in contact with churches that do a lot of good work. From anti-eviction, immigration reform, improving mass transit. It's the type of stuff that even locally that doesn't get a ton of media attention and forget nationally.

You says liberal churches don't denounced the religious right that's not true. When Lou Engle's anti-gay anti-Muslim "The Call" came to Detroit, churches protested. I was one of the people at that protest and knowing personally more than a few in that crowd there were atheist and believers of various stripes .The fact is the religious right is way more tribal, there is no liberal religious equivalent in size to groups like AFA or FRC. On a personal level I've never had my believing friends try to convert or say that agnostic views are wrong, their belief would be one of the last things that define them to me.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-11-12/detroit-prayer-rally/51182062/1

[Act_of_Reparation]

18. Of course there are outliers...

I've worked in political community organizing positions for the past 6 years and it's brought me in contact with churches that do a lot of good work. From anti-eviction, immigration reform, improving mass transit. It's the type of stuff that even locally that doesn't get a ton of media attention and forget nationally.

Yes, some churches do good things. I don't think anyone here would dispute that.

You says liberal churches don't denounced the religious right that's not true. When Lou Engle's anti-gay anti-Muslim "The Call" came to Detroit, churches protested. I was one of the people at that protest and knowing personally more than a few in that crowd there were atheist and believers of various stripes .The fact is the religious right is way more tribal, there is no liberal religious equivalent in size to groups like AFA or FRC. On a personal level I've never had my believing friends try to convert or say that agnostic views are wrong, their belief would be one of the last things that define them to me.

You have to understand that when we talk about widespread social phenomena, we are forced to speak in generalities. Speaking for myself, I don't pretend to think any statement I make regarding the behavior of the religious is absolutely applicable across the board.

About a year ago, there was a rather heated exchange between listeners of the Best of the Left podcast regarding the issue of white privilege. Some white men felt particularly abused by all the harsh language deployed against the white establishment, as they were non-racist, progressive whites, who would genuinely like to see racism eradicated. The problem with that thinking, however, is that regardless of whether or not a sizable population of white men are politically progressive, the problem of white male privilege still exists. The issue is bigger than any one person, or any one person's experience.

In short, if you're not part of the problem, it is safe to assume the criticism isn't directed at you.

As for your characterization of the religious right, I have to disagree. Being fundamentalists, they are often at each others' throats over theological issues. Southern Baptists, for instance, reserve a particular dislike for the Pentacostals. You also have non-denominational Christian groups, which are utterly lacking in formal hierarchical organization. Meanwhile, the religious left is characterized by many top-down, hierarchical religious institutions (such as the Catholic and Episcopal churches) with vast, organized, national networks. That the disorganized troupes of religious conservatives are able to band together as a bloc to address social issues while the comparatively organized churches of the left cannot seems to me a matter of motivation.

[SpartanDem]

19. I would agree that lack motivation is an issue

and I think it has to do with the mindset of the fundamentalist when these people say gay and lesbians will bring about "X" they really do believe it. Until I had read about fundamentalism I had always sort of dismissed it 'oh they're just saying that. What's really be eye opening is reading the experiences of people like LibbyAnne who've escaped, I had no idea how emotionally abusive these uber conservative religions could be. If you literally live in fear of some consequence of gays getting married you might be very motivated to try stopping it.

I think this lack motivation is a broader issue, the majority of people in the country are pro-choice but polls have shown that in terms voting it is much more important to the anti-choice crowd. It's the same for gun control, those that prioritize protecting guns right are much more likely to have contacted an elected official or donated to organizations. This lack motivation isn't just liberal church issues, but one for liberals in general.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/02/the-end-times-part-vi-rapture-anxiety.html

[JNelson6563]

20. A splendid discussion!

So many good points. Enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts~as always!

Julie