I have a question maybe someone can answer re: electric shock

[stillsoleft]

In this tragic story below about two brothers who were electrocuted in Texas, the article says the boy stepped in a puddle near down power lines. I've read other news stories about people who were electrocuted after stepping into electrified water.

But I've read other places that you can't get electrocuted standing in water unless you are touching something metal or an electric appliance - that the touching the metal will make the electricity pass thru you because now you complete the circuit. Contact with the water alone is not enough to make the the current enter your body.


https://www.dallasnews.com/news/fort-worth/2017/03/29/2-electrocuted-downed-power-lines-fort-worth-park

[greymattermom]

1. If your foot is in the water on the ground, there will be circuit between the water and the ground

right?

[RKP5637]

8. Yep! Right! n/t

[Warpy]

9. Right, which is one of two reasons you need to wear rubber soled shoes

through standing water after any sort of disaster.

The other reason is hidden debris.

[Lint Head]

2. I'm not sure that's true.

Apparently electricity can be sent through water to shock. It's an old way of fishing that I saw back in the fifties and early sixties when I was younger. I had an uncle and my mom and dad's friends who would take the old antiquated crank telephones and stick two wires from the phone in the water. Turn the crank and the fish would jump up and float to the top of the water stunned being electrocuted.

It was a illegal of course but a popular thing to do with those old telephones. That was next to fishing with dynamite. I'm not yanking your chain this is a true story.

[RKP5637]

6. Yep, I remember that. Also, being used to make worms come to the surface of the ground for bait. n/t

[democratisphere]

3. Read and study this link below.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2013/july/electric-shock-drowning-explained.asp

[RKP5637]

7. Excellent article !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[uppityperson]

4. 2 feet can complete the circuit, if I recall correctly

[RKP5637]

5. Here's an interesting discussion on this. It would likely depend on the source location,

the grounding paths involved (perhaps not even being touched), where one was standing relative to the aforementioned, and the ionization of the water. There would be several variables involved. ... probably a lot of variables on a case-by-case basis. Anyway, the link below is interesting.

https://www.jefftk.com/p/electricity-and-water

[TexasProgresive]

10. We were given instructions on how to walk to safety from down power lines.

The trick is to slide your feet on the ground- not lifting which will cause a difference of potential and a shock. You certainly can die from power lines that fall down in water. The 1st member of my just graduated H.S. class was waiting in a thunder storm for a bus to take him to work. We had graduated that afternoon. Lightening struck to power lines which fell into water and killed Rick.

[RKP5637]

12. Yes! There are also sometimes lots of surface ground currents from lightening traveling on the

surface of the earth. Scary stuff in addition to what happened to Rick.

"When lightning strikes the ground or an object on the ground, the discharge occurs in and along the ground surface (not deep into the ground). This creates a dangerous and potentially deadly ground current near the lightning strike. ... In the U.S., many lightning deaths and injuries are related to ground current."

We have lots of underground utilities here. I always wonder in heavy rains how many of them are leaking currents into the ground and possibly to the surface. One place I lived years ago the electricity used to fail in heavy rain storms. All of the wiring was underground for the utilities and so old it used to trip the mains or sometimes fry the transformers there were so many current leaks.

[TexasProgresive]

13. I worked most of my life in telecommunications.

I took a power class that touched on the dangers in power substations. part of the discussion was on how to protect our equipment and part on protecting ourselves from stray and spurious ground currents. Fortunately for me I never had to go into a substation, but it was good information to know. We tend to assume that earth (ground) is safe as it sinks electrical currents. While that is true for the most part there are situations with high current and voltage where, as you say, there can be dangerous electrical potentials along the surface of the ground for several feet from the source. It ain't nothing to mess with. Always use your voltage detector! Take care of your electrical gloves and blankets and never touch the body of an aerial lift truck working around power.

I know, RKP5637, I am preaching to the choir.

Speaking of leaking underground power; I remember reading of a case where a dairy farmer went broke. He replaced cows but
milk production continued to decline. If I remember right it was solved too late for the farm. Buried transmission lines were leaking to the ground and then to the waterers. It wasn't enough to injure the cows but they didn't like it and were not drinking enough water. No water, no milk.

[RKP5637]

14. Yep, all good things to know! I think ground currents are the sneakiest things going. One thing I've

never been in are old underground utility tunnels, like NYC, Boston and many cities. I bet there are a lot of hair raising stories from the crews that work those areas.

I read somewhere about an area where homeowners were feeling tingling from metal ladders in pools, diving boards etc. Supposedly they were bonded and all, but there was a lot of current leakage from the old underground utility wiring, etc. in the neighborhood.

I lost all of my power one night. The utility crew came out and put in a temporary run. The next day they dug up the yard where they had located a shorted line about 4 feet or more underground. They patched it, etc. They said it had probably been deteriorating for 30 years or more ... sometimes cables get nicked they said when housing developments are built and the lines lay there leaking, and eventually short out.

Interesting discussion! Thanks!!!

[TexasProgresive]

15. One other thing about ground and grounding.

Beach sand is a very poor ground. A friend of mine who had a PBX business in the Bolivar Peninsular/Galveston error said that after a big T-storm they would send out vans full of parts to their customers without them calling. He said they had pulled ground rods out that were coated with glass where the lightening surge had fused the sand. He said that they would connect to the utility ground but the good ground might be miles away-very poor protection.

[RKP5637]

16. Incredible!!! I bet if you could survey the houses in the US many have very poor grounding.

[duncang]

11. Simple terms Step potential

Last edited Tue May 2, 2017, 02:00 AM - Edit history (1)

You can have a voltage difference between your two legs. This a result of resistance of the ground and voltage drop it causes across a distance.

An example would be going out to your breaker box to reset a tripped breaker during a storm. The lightning can hit a overhead line. It travels down the neutral wire then goes to the grounding rod. From the ground rod as the voltage travels it loses voltage because of resistance. So you have a voltage potential difference as you go away from the ground rod. I.E. you can have 2,000 volts at one foot and 1,000 volts on the other.

Same thing can happen if lightning strikes a tree and you are nearby.

Rubber soled shoes aren't really a fool proof protection. Since the leather or canvas can get wet and still conduct electricity. Even the high rubber boots according to the available voltage may not prevent shock. Also shuffling your feet may not work. The main thing is the distance between the feet when moving.

Edit forgot to add it's not the voltage but the amps that kill. That's why you see those people who have van de graff or tesla coils touch it or have the electricity running off their fingers not getting killed. High voltage but low amperage going through the body.

[stillsoleft]

17. what would happen if a person slipped in water and landed on their butt

so now the entire lower half of their body is in the water, and they grab, lets say the metal in a nearby appliance to try and pull themselves up.

[duncang]

18. That would probably be a worse case scenario

When current goes through the chest that is what can stop the heart.

One other point just because someone doesn't die immediately doesn't mean the are free and clear of consequences. Even if the electricity doesn't go through the chest the current could cause blood clots from the electricity essentially cooking your blood.

As a example before all the "job killing rules" from OSHA that the repub's gripe about now and want to do away with. The rules on lock out tag of of electrical equipment was lax to put it lightly. I was working on a piece of 3 phase 480 volt equipment. It was kind of tight because of the metal scaffolding that had been built and my shoulder was pressed up against the metal scaffold. Someone further up the line energized it while I was working on it. The current went through my hand to my shoulder. I was lucky in a way the route it took since it didn't go through my chest. But even though it didn't kill me. I still could have blood clots form from the power cooking the blood in my veins. Again luckily for me it wasn't that severe and I didn't have a problem afterward.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

19. Appendix C to Section 1910.269 -- Protection From Hazardous Differences in Electric Potential

People have already mentioned step potential. Here's some material about that, from OSHA. Go to page 20677. Yes, page 20677, which is page 363 of the .pdf document.

Electric Power Generation, Transmission, and Distribution; Electrical Protective Equipment; Final Rule