There is something that I am trying to understand ...

[1StrongBlackMan]

and hope that my asking it here (as an outsider to this group) is perceived as neither disruptive, nor insulting; but rather, as a sincere and honest attempt to understand.

Reading through some of the DU posts and listening to the media reports/commentary regarding Gaza, I frequently hear what amounts to criticism of the Israeli government and/or Zionism, as being anti-Semitism, or an anti-Semitic attack.

We frequently (or at least I) attempt to understand things by attempting to place ourselves (myself) in what we (I) believe to be a similar, though imperfect, known setting. As such, I have attempted to understand by questioning whether I, as a Black man, would consider/have considered criticism of an African state's policies/practices or the "policy decisions" of African Leaders or criticism of the Nation of Islam or other Black separatists (particularly in America), as a racist attack?

In each case, I do/have not ... I'm wonder what I am missing?

Again, I am seeking to understand, not inflame.

(I have X-Posted this to the Israeli/Palestine Group and the GD, as I am uncertain, as to its appropriate place.)

[Behind the Aegis]

1. I have to run to a doctor's appointment, so I will be brief, unusual for me on this topic.

Three things to consider and answer for me, so we are clear,

...have you never considered an attack on Obama to be racist? If not, why not?
...as for the media reports, can you give a few (3 or 4) examples (they can be short, an example would be something specially being called anti-Semitic, that you felt was not anti-Semitic).
...what do you think "anti-Semitic" means, not just the definition (but provide it too)?

You are likely not to get many responses in either group (and I/P will likely be nasty, if your post is allowed to stay open). You will also likely get few responses here (though I hope others will take this opportunity to open up).

If you could answer the above, it would help me gage my response. You can ask more questions too, but I will be able to better understand with those basic questions being answered. I hate when people "respond" by asking questions; it is usually a passive-aggressive way to be shitty, but in this case, it really will help.

[1StrongBlackMan]

2. Thank you for replying ...

As to your questions:

...have you never considered an attack on Obama to be racist? If not, why not?

Yes ... In two instances: first, the attacks that involve birtherism, calling him an "Affirmative Action hire", and/or involve poorly spelled signs and chain emails (that are usually apologized for when they come to light); and secondly, in those instances where President Obama has been held to a higher standard than previous Presidents.

...as for the media reports, can you give a few (3 or 4) examples (they can be short, an example would be something specially being called anti-Semitic, that you felt was not anti-Semitic).

Here is a link to an OpEd piece (circa, 2012) that has always stuck with me. http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Yes-all-criticism-of-Israel-is-anti-Semitic. The recent dust-up involving the Presbyterians' divestment also comes to mind. I could probably come up with more, but I think I don't need to.

...what do you think "anti-Semitic" means, not just the definition (but provide it too)?

I guess this gets to the root of the issue, huh? Though I see plenty of loose language critical of "the Jewish people"/"the Jews" (please note, I never use that term, as I it is, to me, as offensive as someone referring to, "the Blacks&quot ... it seems in context they are not referring to people of the Jewish Faith, or even Israelis; but rather, the actions of the State (and individuals that support those governmental actions).

I hate when people "respond" by asking questions; it is usually a passive-aggressive way to be shitty, but in this case, it really will help.

I completely agree and completely understand ... Understanding definitions is important in building understand.

And I suspect that your questions are to gauge whether I am sincere in trying to understand; or, whether I'm just looking for an argument ... And that is, also, completely understandable.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. OK...I think I understand where your question evolves, so let's see what we can do.

As to your questions:

...have you never considered an attack on Obama to be racist? If not, why not?

Yes ... In two instances: first, the attacks that involve birtherism, calling him an "Affirmative Action hire", and/or involve poorly spelled signs and chain emails (that are usually apologized for when they come to light); and secondly, in those instances where President Obama has been held to a higher standard than previous Presidents.

I would agree with your examples. Your last example, held to a higher standard, is one we see in regards to Israel. People can debate whether they believe that is the case or not, but for those of us who see Israel being held to a higher standard than all other countries, we do see it as a manifestation of anti-Semitism, in the same way Obama being held to a higher standard from his peers (or, in some cases, expected to be almost flawless) is a shadow of racism. Examples I would use come directly from the UN Security Council (UNSC). More resolutions have been passed against Israel than all other countries combined, which that fact shuts down the absurd propaganda BS one sees by self-professed liberals and progressives that "the US always (or mostly) prevents resolutions against Israel by veto." If that statement were true, then there would be no resolutions against Israel (or few) and it certainly wouldn't be the most resolutions passed against a single nation-state above all other countries combined. Furthermore, Israel is the only country not allowed to be a member of its physical regional group (Asia), and that means it cannot serve on the UNSC as well as several other UN bodies, and in some cases can't even come to meeting unless held in NY. To me, that is singling Israel out. So one asks why? The most likely answer is because Israel is the "Jewish state." Even under Apartheid, South Africa wasn't frozen out of the UN groups (and I think only 6 resolutions were passed against it during the Apartheid years).

...as for the media reports, can you give a few (3 or 4) examples (they can be short, an example would be something specially being called anti-Semitic, that you felt was not anti-Semitic).

Here is a link to an OpEd piece (circa, 2012) that has always stuck with me. http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Yes-all-criticism-of-Israel-is-anti-Semitic. The recent dust-up involving the Presbyterians' divestment also comes to mind. I could probably come up with more, but I think I don't need to.

(For anyone reading, remove the period from the link, otherwise you get a dead link.) That is certainly one opinion, but in all my years and all the Jews I know, I have never come across a Jew who believes what was written in that piece. It is absolutely insane to declare any and all criticism of Israel anti-Semitic! It would be just as insane to say any and all criticism of Obama is racist, or any and all criticism of Arab nations is Islamophobic. I would even go as far as to say most criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic. Sure, there are some who are "anti-Israel bigots," but that is another beast all together.

The Presbyterians' divestment is seen as anti-Semitic because they don't hold any other country to that standard (as discussed above). Do they divest from China, which is occupying Tibet? How about Turkey, who occupies part of Cyprus? To me, it is understandable to boycott products made in the Settlements as they are illegal. The occupation isn't, but the settlements are. Also, given the monstrous things OUR country has recently done and continues to do in the Middle East, boycotting Israel seems like rank hypocrisy.

An example for which you may not be familiar was the exclusion an Israeli university from an academic event in Spain a few years ago (2009). When the Israeli university made it to the finals, it was then, after two years of work, that the Spanish authorities decided they couldn't participate. The university is in the West Bank, but is open to all people, but because of its location, it was disqualified. This seems disingenuous to me.

There are also the exclusionary groups who claim to be against "apartheid" but only focus on Israel. There was even a dust up in the LGBT community in Seattle when that group refused to allow an Israeli delegation to the conference "because of the occupation," but allowed delegations from Iran, China, Turkey, and several other places engaged in occupations or suppression of its own peoples. But, once again, the only ones not allowed to the table...Israel.

...what do you think "anti-Semitic" means, not just the definition (but provide it too)?

I guess this gets to the root of the issue, huh? Though I see plenty of loose language critical of "the Jewish people"/"the Jews" (please note, I never use that term, as I it is, to me, as offensive as someone referring to, "the Blacks&quot ... it seems in context they are not referring to people of the Jewish Faith, or even Israelis; but rather, the actions of the State (and individuals that support those governmental actions).

I am sure you have heard the term "reverse racism" and I am guessing it makes your skin crawl, but at the same time you can't help but laugh at the overall ignorance of the expression. Well, many Jews (and others) feel the same when we hear "Arabs are Semites too!" as a way to claim that "anti-Semitism" isn't (or isn't just) discrimination against Jews. However, anti-Semitism is discrimination against Jews only. Some feel even having a term like it is exclusionary, and therefore, shouldn't be allowed to be used. I see it as a form of anti-Semitism itself (to pretend the word means something other than what it does) because it is an attempt to diminish discrimination and hate against Jews.

What you are more likely to see is not "false accusations of anti-Semitism," but rather claims of false accusations of anti-Semitism. Read over the numerous threads about Israel and find the FIRST mention of anti-Semitism, it is almost never from some making the claim, but rather some claiming the claim has already (or will be) made. I see it along the same veins of "I am not racist, but..."

Finally, you have the covert anti-Semitism, which can be very tricky to prove. Though you don't agree with the comment below, that poster is quite correct. Some how found a way to mask their anti-Semitism in criticism of Israel. They may never say "kike" or "Jews run the media," a few may even 'tut-tut' those types of accusations, but the posters' preoccupation with Israel and unrepentant "criticism" of Israel becomes suspicious. There was a homophobic asshole here, right before the launch of DU3, who used to post article after article about gays caught in pedophilia rings, gay criminals, basically anything where the "bad guy" was gay, he posted. He never said "faggot" or anything to that nature, but the pattern was clear, so when he finally did say something OTT homophobic, it came as no surprise to many GLBT posters...we already knew.

Another covert form of anti-Semitism is the use of "Zionist" in place of "Jew." It can be difficult to show it is anti-Semitic because they inevitably will say "Christians are Zionists too and not all Jews are Zionists." Both true statements, however, it is nothing more than a clever way to muddy the water. Then there is the use of the Holocaust references and imagery whenever it is Israel involved. Most of the time, you will see people screech to high heaven when someone uses the Holocaust as a reference to something or calls someone "Hitler," but those same people turn into pigs at a trough when it Israel as the target. Think of it this way, it would be similar to people using slavery analogies to describe the actions of Obama, but the same people are offended when the charges are used against others.

I hope that was helpful, but now I must let the puppies out and fix dinner. I will be around later tonight.

[BKH70041]

8. Thank You

"Finally, you have the covert anti-Semitism, which can be very tricky to prove. Though you don't agree with the comment below, that poster is quite correct. Some how found a way to mask their anti-Semitism in criticism of Israel. They may never say "kike" or "Jews run the media," a few may even 'tut-tut' those types of accusations, but the posters' preoccupation with Israel and unrepentant "criticism" of Israel becomes suspicious. There was a homophobic asshole here, right before the launch of DU3, who used to post article after article about gays caught in pedophilia rings, gay criminals, basically anything where the "bad guy" was gay, he posted. He never said "faggot" or anything to that nature, but the pattern was clear, so when he finally did say something OTT homophobic, it came as no surprise to many GLBT posters...we already knew.

Another covert form of anti-Semitism is the use of "Zionist" in place of "Jew." It can be difficult to show it is anti-Semitic because they inevitably will say "Christians are Zionists too and not all Jews are Zionists." Both true statements, however, it is nothing more than a clever way to muddy the water. Then there is the use of the Holocaust references and imagery whenever it is Israel involved. Most of the time, you will see people screech to high heaven when someone uses the Holocaust as a reference to something or calls someone "Hitler," but those same people turn into pigs at a trough when it Israel as the target. Think of it this way, it would be similar to people using slavery analogies to describe the actions of Obama, but the same people are offended when the charges are used against others."

-----------

I wish it were true that it was a "narrative going on in my head," but that is a lie and one easily believed by the naïve. Once again, if I hated Jews and someone made that claim, I too would try and claim they were just inventing scenarios that don't really exist. I grew up in Miami. I've seen this all too often as it was aimed at my many friends. I see it for what it is and what it has been for a long time. I'm not going to pretend I don't.

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. This is quite a bit to digest ...

especially after a quick read through ... but I think I understand and thank you for you effort to inform me.

I will read it ... in the quite of my morning tomorrow, when I have very little competing for my attention ... other than drinking my coffee, (sneaking a cigarette) and playing with my dogs.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Whilst sipping your java and playing the pups, and smoking (I am so jealous)..consider this...

The battling of the Jewish voice (especially when put forth by non-Jews); note both are Holocaust survivors, and note how differently their messages are treated:

Elie Wiesel Condemns Hamas Use of Children as Human Shields
An Auschwitz Survivor speaks about Palestine

Read this threads about anti-Semitism and see how people claim "they have never seen it, only people playing the anti-Semite card" or "that isn't really anti-Semitism":

Belgian physician refuses to treat Jewish patient over Gaza op
Is blatant anti-Semitism rampant here at DU?

Also, for extra credit ( ) see if you can spot the problem:

Google Play offers ‘Bomb Gaza’ game that lets you kill Muslim women and children

[1StrongBlackMan]

11. My moment of morning quiet was interrupted by that thing called life ...

So I am on the run ...

I only got a chance to briefly scan the links. All I can say is Welcome to MY world (here on DU, and in the larger world)!

From using Black commentators to say "see what I just said can't be racist because Bill Cosby said the same thing", never-mind what {Insert 10 other Black commentators' name here} say.

To having white folks tell Black folks what is, or isn't, "real racism"/"real discrimination." And my favorite ... "Liberals/progressives can't be racists ... because ... we are liberals/progressives (... never-mind the racist stuff written)."

I'll be back later to read this more fully and comment.

[BKH70041]

3. I come at it from a different angle.

I am not Jewish, so I want to make that clear upfront.

Here's the question I ask myself: If I hated Jews and wanted to express that hated in a way that flew under the radar, how would I go about it? Especially on a pol board like this. You see, if someone were to come out on this site and say "I hate Jews," they would probably have their post deleted by a jury. And not because the jurors might disagree with the sentiments of the statement, but because there's certain things you just don't say publicly they would believe privately.

Well, if I hated Jews, the way I would express it would be by saying things condemning Israel, or by saying it wasn't a proportional attack, or by saying the USA should withdraw support of Israel, or other things along that line. Who's going to question that? And if confronted, the fallback position would be that I don't hate Jews, but I am against what the Israeli gov't is doing, etc...

That's how someone can hate Jews and get away with it on this site and out in public.

Now someone might say "How about those who really do oppose what the Israeli gov't is doing?" Call it being older and having seen this happen over and over again for decades now, but I've found that when you dig deep enough, what you find out is the person saying it really just hates Jews. I haven't seen anything here at this site from those who claim to oppose the actions of the Israeli gov't to convince me differently or to convince me they're sincere. This site has a group of Jew haters hiding out in the open.

[1StrongBlackMan]

4. I disagree ...

with this approach as it requires that you create an unknown (a fiction in our mind) and then proceed to act on that narrative as if it were fact.

[BKH70041]

5. And that's another excuse that is used.

[1StrongBlackMan]

6. What? ...

that it's unwise to ascribe motive to another's actions, based solely on a narrative going on in your head?