Dolan Says Obama Policies Threaten ‘Sacred Liberties’

[rug]

By SHARON OTTERMAN
Published: June 22, 2012

Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan on Friday helped kick off a national campaign opposing President Obama’s health care mandates and other government policies that Roman Catholic leaders say threaten their religious freedom.

- snip -

Roman Catholics are divided over whether the bishops are being too political in their campaign against Obama administration policies in an election year.

The bishops’ campaign “is nothing more than election-year political posturing,” said Phil Attey, the executive director of Catholics for Equality, an organization that supports equal rights for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Catholics and that helped organize the protest in Baltimore.

“It all has to do with their bigger push to be politically powerful again,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/nyregion/obama-mandate-threatens-sacred-liberties-dolan-says.html

http://catholicsforequality.org/

[liberal N proud]

1. Oppression is a liberty?

Funny how those who spend their entire career forcing their views on others demostrate outrage when they themselves have something forced on them.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

2. Actually, there is an answer to that

It is firmly established in Catholic theology that (1) truth is objective, (2) what the Catholic Church teaches is ipso facto true and (3) "error has no rights."

Therefore, it logically follows that the Catholic bishops are acting properly.

If you really want, I can debate any of those three propositions (each one of which is certainly debatable, especially the second), but that is the mindset the bishops are operating from.

[liberal N proud]

4. It's still oppression

I grew up Catholic.

[rug]

5. The only entity with the power to oppress is the state.

Theology becomes oppressive only when the state adopts it.

The problem is state power and politics, not theology.

And lots of people grew up Catholic. Most still are.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

6. Apparently, you don't live in the same world as the rest of us

The only entity with the power to oppress is the state.

There are all sorts of entities with the power to oppress. Churches do it all the time, companies do it far more than the state -- the company I was working for in 1988 (which I shall not name, except to say it was Computer Associates) told me that I had to go to New Orleans at a specific time. I objected that it was my 25th wedding anniversary, and that my wife and I had plans for that weekend. I was given a choice, either quit or do what I was told.

I quit.

People who have been divorced and have become remarried in the Catholic Church are refused the sacraments. If you are a believing Catholic, this is oppression. Similarly, a Catholic woman who feels she is called to the priesthood is refused ordination, for reasons that are simply sexist. That is oppression by a non-state entity.

People who are bullies oppress their victims.

[rug]

7. Apparently you have a different view of oppression.

The state is the only entity able to impose a consequence without some level of consent.

That is different from discrimination, leveraging economic disparity, peer pressure, and the like.

(I don't know who you mean by "the rest of us".)

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

8. You seem to have an odd view of "consent"

One "consents" to be part of the state. If one does not, one can leave -- unless you live in a police state, in which case you have other problems.

Oppression is oppression whether one consents to it or not.

By "the rest of us" I mean everyone else in the world, who are doomed to oppression by the state and by others.

[rug]

9. The state is not a church.

Anybody can leave a church. Leaving a state is not the essence of oppression by a state. Imprisonment is. There is no consent in that.

And I don't think you can speak for everyone else in the world.

[Kingofalldems]

3. I wonder if Dolan has Rove on speed dial.

Last edited Sat Jun 23, 2012, 02:57 PM - Edit history (1)

[Kingofalldems]

10. If the Church is so concerned about birth control

it's time to start enforcing their own laws. Announce at all Masses that any Catholic using birth control will not be allowed Communion. See how that works out.

[rug]

11. That's not how it works.

[Kingofalldems]

13. How so?

[rug]

14. Do you realize you're in a safe haven group?

Telling people how to enforce "their own laws" in a safe have group is not how it works.

[Kingofalldems]

15. What are you talking about sir?

I am allowed to comment on my own Church, where I served as an altar boy (Latin) beginning over 50 yrs ago. I can do without your threats. And I am not telling people anything.

Unbelievable.

[rug]

16. There is a difference between "my own Church" and "their own laws".

[Kingofalldems]

17. Wow. I just suggested the Church enforce their own rules

that they are so up in arms about in this election. Simple.

[rug]

18. There's nothing wrong with that.

But if you're still in the Church it's more "us" than "their".

If I may ask, do you still consider yourself part of the Church or do you consider it part of your past?

[Kingofalldems]

20. Part of the Church but not the hierarchy, hence 'they'.

Confounded by their behavior.

[rug]

21. Ok, that's clear enough.

Pax tecum.

(I remember my altar boy Latin too.)

[meow2u3]

12. Dolan's definition of "sacred liberties"

The liberty for the church to impose its will on the state with an iron hand.

[rug]

19. More precisely, using the state to impose its will.

Frankly, entangling the church with the state is a recipe for destroying the church.

I'd like to see some Orthodox folks weigh in.

[47of74]

22. Every time Dolan opens his trap lately...

...I have a need to either find or print out and use one of these;

[mykpart]

23. I have said this repeatedly on other boards,

but no one else seems to be saying it: Freedom of religion is NOT A FAITH ISSUE! When a young Joseph Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth, it was tolerated because the government required it. When the children of Christian Scientists are given mandatory inoculations before starting school, we all support the government's right to protect the public health. The fact that my parents paid taxes to the local school districts even though all their children attended Catholic school was never even questioned. There is nothing in the teachings of Christ that guarantee that Christians will always be allowed to practice their religion unfettered. In fact, He predicted that we would be persecuted for it. Regardless of how many times they deny it, or how many times they invoke St. Thomas More, the Bishops are promoting a political agenda, and if this is a matter of politics and not of faith, then I so not feel bound to follow their lead in this matter.

[rug]

24. I agree completely with your last sentence especially.