I've stopped bashing Catholics.

[pitbullgirl1965]

I had a nasty habit of Catholic (and Christianity in general) bashing, until recently. Then I remembered how progressive Catholic have fought for social justice and still are:
Nuns on a Bus.
Protesting the School of the Americas and being arrested
Risking their lives marching in Selma
Catholics for Choice.
Catholic Charity

And who could fail to respect the wonderful St. Francis? ( one of my personal heroes)
The beautiful Blessing of the Animals is a wonderful ceremony, which I hope to attend someday.

There are some nasty comments on here about Catholics, hopefully pointing out the good you've all done will drown the negativity.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm trying to get "brownie points". I've noticed that liberal websites aren't very welcoming of religion.





http://www.networklobby.org/bus

http://www.soaw.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=159***

http://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/a-look-back-at-catholic-involvement-of-selma-civil-rights-protests/

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/preview.aspx?id=255

http://catholicclimatecovenant.org/the-st-francis-pledge/


*** The author of the book Orange is the New Black met one of those nuns.

[rug]

1. That's a very nice thing to say.

Thanks for those links.

[pitbullgirl1965]

2. :) No problem

The School of the America is particularly frightening. The violence their trainees committed is comparable to Joseph Mengele. Norm Chomsky wrote about it and I wouldn't read it if you're easily triggered.

http://www.soaw.org/about-the-soawhinsec/soa-labor-a-globalization

[IrishAyes]

3. You might really enjoy one of my favorite movies, 'Romero'

It's political as well as religious and based on a real story. Very realistic and well told, out of Australia.

[pitbullgirl1965]

4. Hi! thank you.

I love true stories. I will mark that down.

ETA: I just read the IMDb review about it! Definitely going to watch this!
thank you

[IrishAyes]

8. I seem to recall it won an Oscar. I watch it at least once a year!

As a former professional in the strictly-legit (shoestring) indies, I'm always entranced with cinematography. Having worked continuity, it's hard for me to suspend disbelief due to a bad habit of still looking for flaws and bloopers. 'Romero' is that rare movie that makes me totally forget the camera. That's the highest accolade possible.

[pitbullgirl1965]

9. It had excellent reviews.

and Raul Julio(?) is one of my favorite actors.

[IrishAyes]

10. Perfectly cast, he was.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

5. Even most of us Catholics bash at least parts of the Church now and then

There is much to disapprove of in the Church. Lord Acton once made a comment to the effect that he remained a Catholic despite his knowledge of Church history and Church politics.

[No Vested Interest]

6. It's not about church politics and church history

It's about Jesus of Nazareth, his words and actions and promises He made to humanity.

Politics and blemished history just reflect the humanity and struggles of individuals who are less than perfect.

We should never have expected them to be perfect, anymore than each of us is perfect.

[rug]

7. +1

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

11. The problem is that there have been those who say the opposite

Last edited Wed Nov 27, 2013, 01:17 PM - Edit history (1)

Pope Gregory VII, in his Dictatus papae, says "That the Roman church has never erred; nor will it err to all eternity, the Scripture bearing witness." It goes on to say "That the Roman pontiff, if he have been canonically ordained, is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter; St. Ennodius, bishop of Pavia, bearing witness, and many holy fathers agreeing with him."

Pope Pius IX, in his Syllabus of Errors, condemned the belief "The Church is not a true and perfect society".

Read the Catholic Encyclopedia article on The Church, the section on "Indefectibility of the Church". Of course, this requires an extremely selective reading of history.

No, I can only agree with Lord Acton, I remain a Catholic despite my knowledge of Church history and politics.

[No Vested Interest]

12. Re you and Lord Acton - fair enough. nt

[lachrymosa]

13. Rediscovering Catholicism

There's a lot of politics and history to sort through. I wish I had time to do the research.

All I know is that bad politics and bad people don't impugn in any way the pure and spotless ideal which is the Body of Christ and her infallible teachings.

I know that when I joined the Church, the Church gained one more sinner and one more less-than-perfect example, but I still believe that in a sense the Church IS a "true and perfect society," at least in reference to the "Church Triumphant."

I'm not only a Catholic despite my knowledge there are and have been some bad Catholics, but despite what I see when I look in the mirror. It's MY sins and flaws that hinder me and are an obstacle to others, and I think what we all need to remember is that our goal is to be holy as individuals. (I've recently been inspired by the book "Rediscovering Catholicism" by Matthew Kelly).

[rug]

14. Welcome to DU.

I will say this. The focus of Francis so far has been on acknowledging we are all imperfect. His papacy has been on a humble church not a church triumphant.

[lachrymosa]

15. The "Church Triumphant"

I'm referring to the souls in Heaven.

The Church Militant: those of us living on the earth in our corruptible bodies
The Church Suffering: those souls in Purgatory
The Church Triumphant: those who are in Heaven

[rug]

16. I'm familiar with it.

It's a pious formulation from a different time reflecting different values.

Adjectives such as militant and triumphant reflect a Eurocentric church in the age of empire.

Now, is the time to focus on those suffering on earth, not Purgatory. (BTW, theologically, there is no "suffering' in Purgatory. Classically, those in purgatory are joyful in their assured salvation while conscious of both the mercy of God and the many ways in which they harmed others and themselves.)

[lachrymosa]

17. The Church Suffering

It's not either/or. We can still pray for the souls in purgatory as well as care for those suffering on earth. But I'm unaware that there is no suffering in purgatory. Could you cite something that supports this assertion? I can see there would be a joy in knowing that one has assured salvation, but that there would be pain in the process of purging self-love and self-centeredness.

But I see no reason not to use the same words used in modern catechisms and the same words I learned in the 20th Century in the USA. They are descriptive, meaningful, and accurate.

[rug]

19. Without a body there can be no pain.

Nature of punishment

It is clear from the Liturgies and the Fathers above cited that the souls for whose peace sacrifice was offered were shut out for the time being from the sight of God. They were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness". Still, for them "death is the termination not of nature but of sin" (Ambrose, "De obitu Theodos.&quot ; and this inability to sin makes them secure of final happiness. This is the Catholic position proclaimed by Leo X in the Bull "Exurge Domine" which condemned the errors of Luther.

Are the souls detained in purgatory conscious that their happiness is but deferred for a time, or may they still be in doubt concerning their ultimate salvation? The ancient Liturgies and the inscriptions of the catacombs speak of a "sleep of peace", which would be impossible if there was any doubt of ultimate salvation. Some of the Doctors of the Middle Ages thought uncertainty of salvation one of the severe punishments of purgatory. (Bellarmine, "De Purgat." lib. II, cap. iv); but this opinion finds no general credit among the theologians of the medieval period, nor is it possible in the light of the belief in the particular judgment. St. Bonaventure gives as the reason for this elimination of fear and of uncertainty the intimate conviction that they can no longer sin (lib. IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1 q. iv): "Est evacuatio timoris propter confirniationem liberi arbitrii, qua deinceps scit se peccare non posse" (Fear is cast out because of the strengthening of the will by which the soul knows it can no longer sin), and St. Thomas (dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) says: "nisi scirent se esse liberandas suffragia non peterent" (unless they knew that they are to be delivered, they would not ask for prayers).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

[gopiscrap]

20. Welcome to DU

[lachrymosa]

18. Thank you.

As a practicing Catholic, I thank you for your openmindedness.

However, I would not want you to be mislead into thinking that "Catholics for Choice" is a Catholic organization and that the Catholic Church could ever reverse her thinking regarding abortion. The Catholic Church believes in Social Justice for all, beginning at conception.

[HealUS]

21. Conservative Latter-day Saint's (Mormon) thoughts on the Pope

I know, I know - what am I doing here?
To be honest, I've come to listen and learn.

I've really been enjoying your insightful comments here from both sides of this discussion
and have to say, that although I don't agree with everything the Pope has said,
I love (and I think most of us do) the that this man seems to be rejecting the chance
to be a man of "Pomp" so that he can be a man of the people. To me, he comes off as
someone who's honestly trying to do the right thing.

I may not be Catholic, and it may sound kind of "Kum Ba Yah" to say it,
but doesn't it seem that when folks with different points of view come together in mutual respect
there's always something to be learned and we're better for the encounter?

So, I hope to be a better neighbor to those who think differently than I do.
Ultimately, I think any one of us could climb into Soul Pancake's "ChatterBox"
(

)
and find that we share a lot more than we'd guess.

[rug]

22. Welcome to DU!

I had never heard of Soul Pancake. See, we both can learn.

[HealUS]

23. Right on!

Thanks for your kind welcome! )

. . . and you're in for a treat! Soul Pancake is out to make the world a happier place to live.
One of my favorite segments they do is "Kid President" - one of the most
engaging kids you'll ever "meet." At one point, he actually got to meet
up with President Obama. There's so much more to these guys and I
think the world is catching on.

If you're curious - here's a link to a fun one-minute synopsis. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/soulpancake

[rug]

24. Thanks for the link.