A question for Catholics out there ...

[CountAllVotes]

there fellow Catholics!

I have a question for you (if any one knows that is).

It the olden days, a person sometimes got a "high mass" when they died.

I never really understood exactly what a "high mass" was/is but I figured it meant that you must have been a very devoted member of the Church and generous with contributions I'd suspect.

Don't quote me on this please as I have an old grandfather that was a bartender and liquor distributor and he contributed heavily to the Church but he did not get a high mass when he died. I found out recently that he was a member of the Temperance Movement in the late 1890s! So, it seems he was a hypocrite I'd say being he embraced Temperance while running his liquor business at the same time! Hence. no high mass for him!

Recently my husband, who is from a family of 10 children, is beginning to slowly watch his siblings pass away.

He lost two sisters year before last and it was a couple of weeks ago that the #1 brother in Ireland passed away from cancer. I received a rather cryptic note from my sister-in-law telling me about how they had "waked him for two days" and that they had a "high mass" for him.

I asked my husband about this bizarre note that is for the most part illegible and he said, "Eh, she was probably half drunk, who knows?". I asked him about the high mass and he said that the death mass becomes a "high mass" when/if the priest "senses it". Is this true? Was it ever true?

Being I thought that the high mass is a thing of the distant past (supposedly removed from the New Testament in 1970 (?) ), I don't know what to say to her in my reply except that the whole family has my prayers and I'll have them mentioned at my local parish as I'll speak with the priest in charge there re: this situation and have condolences published locally for the whole family, my husband included and he sure needs lots and lots of prayers too, believe me!

My brother-in-law that just passed was indeed a fine man. He took the farm over at the age of 16 years and dropped out of school to do it being his father died in 1940. He worked that farm all of those years and the farm has been *cough* passed on to another relative of the family that my husband does not know. (!)

As for my husband, he is so very sad indeed. He was crying, I heard him, crying in secret about his brother's death.

I met my late brother-in-law but once and all he wanted to do was return to Ireland with his 10 cartons of cigarettes. That was what he liked best about America, the fact that cigarettes were cheap (at that time; abt. 1988 or so they were about $1.50 a pack or so). He was a staunch man of few words, stone faced and silent. I remember his wife slapping his hand when he reached for a cigarette that day in 1988. What a strange solitary memory to have of someone isn't it only to end up dying of throat cancer? He was the father of four children and will be greatly missed my many I'm sure.

As if this is not bad enough, my husband found out the other day that his other older brother living here in the USA has been dx'd with lung cancer and I'd suspect he doesn't have a whole lot longer to live and he is not at all religious.

In any event, lots of prayers are needed for my husband and his family in Ireland and here in the USA. About half of them still reside in Ireland and the other half live here in the USA. Of the 10 children born, seven remain and all of them are in their late 70s and 80s, the oldest being close to 90 years residing at the family home in Ireland where he has always lived.

My in-laws have a unique history and yes, most of them are indeed fairly strict Catholics from what I know about them. Thanks in advance for your prayers for this very special family that has been pretty kind to me over the years.

[beemer27]

1. Perhaps this will explain the difference.

Here is a thread from Catholic Answers that will explain the difference between High Mass and Low Mass.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=376522

Basically, the High Mass has singing, chanting, incense, and is a lot fancier than a Low Mass. At one time High Masses were for the major Sunday worship time, Feast Days, and special occasions. Now they are all about the same.
When your sister in law said that they "waked" him for two days, she meant that they held a wake for two days.

[CountAllVotes]

2. Thank you very much

Thanks for the info.

I just got back from the store and picked up a rather religious "In Sympathy" card and have mailed it off to Ireland. She should get it within a week or so I hope. I'm sure she's just devastated as she truly loved my brother-in-law and they were married for over 50 years.

Seems he was a fine man indeed to get that High Mass he so righteously deserved. If it weren't for him, I don't know who would have been able to run that farm all of those years.

As for the wake, I'm sure every person in the county was there to celebrate! Too bad we couldn't make it and yes, it was held on a Sunday.

May my late brother-in-law RIP.

Thanks again for the info.

[rug]

3. Before Vatican II my parish had a High Mass every Sunday at 10 and on feast days.

It's basically jut a more elaborate Mass.

The weekday Mass more simple and was called a Low Mass.

The Anglicans who emphasize the catholicity of their Church are called High Church and those who emphasize the Protestant strains are called Low Church. At least they used to be called that.

[CountAllVotes]

4. Both of my parents masses were on a Saturday evening

The little church is a small historical one and dear to heart so I had their masses said there. They'd be considered Low Masses right?

There was no singing nor incense but I really loved the chanting I heard when the priest called her name over and over again.

It was beautiful really.

I had no idea as to what I was doing really. It was about the best option at the time and I'm she (mother that is) would have liked that I hope.

It helps to know a few things now and then huh?

Gotta admit I'm a on many things re: the Church as never have opted to be confirmed.

Thanks for the bit of history there ... lots of it w/the Catholic Church, I know that much.

[rug]

5. Do you mean their funeral Masses?

I think there is a separate ritual for funerals.

I'm not sure they have High Masses as such any more.

The usual vernacular Mass is simply the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. I don't think there is a High Mass in it but I may be mistaken.

The Latin Mass is now the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite and I believe it still has the High Mass.

High Mass takes much longer. When the Latin Mass was universal I suspect they came up with the shorter Low Mass to encourage daily attendance.

I just reread your OP. So sorry about the deaths and illnesses you and your husband are experiencing. It's inevitable for us all but inevitability makes it no less easy.

If you feel like it, go see your parish priest. I've never met one yet who doesn't enjoy talking about the history and forms of the Mass. He may even talk you into getting confirmed.

[CountAllVotes]

6. Yes, these were funeral masses

My late mother arranged the one for my Dad at this little Catholic Church not far from where I now live.

After she died, she'd told me that she wanted a mass said for her when she passed away.

So, I went to the priest, the same man that said my father's mass and he arranged it for her.

He was so kind towards her and he even made up some nice little notes to send out for her.

Seems he was an art major at the university in Ireland. He is sort of a wannabe artist turned priest.

He is retired now but he helped me and my family a lot I must admit. I have not seen him for a long time now and his predecessor is an old local priest that just celebrated 45 years being an ordained priest. He's a great guy and I like him a lot and he is very kind as well.

As for being confirmed into the Church -- no is my answer.

However, I went through the rest of the stuff and I still go to Mass now and then but I'm not devout and never have been. I've never been told by anyone at the Church that I had no right to be there being I was baptized, went through Holy Communion, etc.

My husband was raised to be a strict Catholic himself. I thought he'd written it off frankly but when we decided to marry he wanted to get married in the Catholic Church but I told him that you just don't go knock on the door and there is someone waiting for you to get married you know ...

He realized that I was right (again) and we opted to have an inexpensive wedding for $45.00 in Nevada.

I liked this option just fine really ....

Cheers and thanks again!!

[No Vested Interest]

7. With your husband suffering those family losses - now and to come-

it could give him comfort to have his (and your) marriage blessed by a priest.
I think at that time of life, you'd like to think you've done all the you could to have things right in heart and mind.
I think that's even more important than the confirmation.

You both are obviously good people, caring for each other and family.

[CountAllVotes]

8. I had thought of this actually

However, he is disinterested I'd say. Why I don't really know as it seems that he always turns to his beliefs in the Church when he is in need of spiritual help.

I met him when I was quite young and there is close to 20 years age difference between us. We knew each other for almost 10 years before we got married however.

Most people were figuring our marriage would last 6 mos. at best. We just celebrated 28 years recently. So much for those that did not believe we had a real marriage.

Our beliefs are the same for the most part.

The main reason I never was confirmed as I do not believe in some of the things that go with Catholicism, esp. with respect to women's issues and a women's rights. My husband shares these issues with me luckily.

My mother used to say that the old Monsignor at the Church I went to as a kid advised women to have a house filled with children, something she sure never wanted. I never wanted that either and my husband came from a "house filled with children".

That house he grew up in had a lot of love in it but they did without many things and basically he grew up in extreme poverty I'd say. Hence, he never wanted any children either and that is what brought us together as Catholics as odd as that may seem to most people.

However, I do like your idea but I don't know what he'd have to say about it at this point in his life. He is about to turn 78 soon and he has a serious health issue (going blind slowly) and believe me, he needs lots of prayers from all that believe that prayer can help/assist one in need of such help.

As for myself, I have MS. I was told when I was diagnosed that I might as well write my marriage off as most people's marriages that end up getting such a DX don't seem to be able to sustain the extreme stress and issues that come with such a problem. That said, he never once indicated to me that this was ever any sort of issue for him and in fact, he cared for me in 2009 when I almost died rather than have a nurse come to the house 3X a day.

Today I am caring for him as he requires eye surgery every 8 weeks for the rest of his life and believe me, it is a difficult reality to face as he can no longer drive and relies on me to do many things that he was once able to do. It is quite sad really and I try not to let it bring us down. I hang on to my faith, my faith in a caring and loving God that is there for everyone. Sometimes all you need to do is just ask a little bit and you shall receive is my personal experience.

So, to me my marriage is very real alright and contains all that one could seriously hope for I'd say as long as one doesn't care to judge the age issue which was never an issue at all for either of us.

I jokingly say that he came to America to rob the cradle! How dare he do such a thing to my poor mother!

Thanks for your kind words, they mean a lot to me.

[No Vested Interest]

9. You are obviously blessed to have each other, both committed

even when the going gets a little rougher, as it does almost inevitably as the years grow long.

Since your decision to have or not have children is a moot point, it shouldn't be allowed to get in the way of spiritual and religious life. We are all creatures of the circumstances into which we were born and raised, and our own innate personalities play a distinct part in the way we live our lives. I believe that poverty among Irish families was especially common in the 30's, 40's and beyond, as portrayed so beautifully but graphically in McCourt's 'Angela's Ashes'.

Perhaps in the abstract "a house filled with children" is a wonderful thing, but it's sure not for everyone. I have seen the examples of the children of large families wanting none or one, and can understand where they're coming from.
Anyway, no need to worry yourself re that aspect now.

As a person closer to your husband's age than your own, I understand that, in addition to his vision problem, the energy to act or make a change is not always there. As for the idea of a marriage blessing, he likely has come to terms with the decision you and he made many years ago, and there's no point in beating a dead horse, so to speak. You can just leave the door open in that respect, and let him know that, should that appeal to him at some time in the future, you would be open to making it happen.

As for the care needed for an aging spouse, the stress and physical tiredness is there. My spouse was in nursing care for a number of years, and I daily saw examples of heroic caring for the other among the residents. As with you, I firmly believe in asking for the strength and wisdom to get us through the present problem. All will be well.

[CountAllVotes]

11. McCourt's 'Angela's Ashes'

I read this book when it first came out and at that time my husband could still see really well. He too read it and he told me that this is a replica of what his life was like.

In fact, my husband met up with Malachy McCourt a number of years ago in San Francisco (which is where we met -- there is a strong Irish community there or was at one time anyway, not sure about these days).

He told his other older brother (still alive and kicking) about this book and he read it too and they both agreed, it was like reading their own stories but the father was not there being their father died when they were at the age of 12 at the most.

The eldest sister is gone too. She was the first to go and was about 85 I believe and she was a fine woman indeed. Oddly, her husband is Hispanic and converted to Buddhism a number of years ago and I never asked her about it. I saw no reason to ask about it.

That was not a good time to be living in Ireland. My husband recalls the WWII bombers flying over Ireland and it scared everyone something fierce.

They had nothing but a radio, one of the few families that had one. All of the neighbors would come around in the evenings to listen to the news about the war hoping to hear it would end soon.

So you've got it alright. He is a survivor of these awful times as are the rest of the remaining children from his family. They had it tough and best I know none of them opted for huge families; some had none like us others just one or two.

We are both blessed and the reason we married was because we both felt that no one much cared for either of us should the need arise and that our best option was to get married to be there for each other. Oh how very right we were it seems.

So, it is what it is but yes, we are indeed still Catholics and yes, we do believe in this faith even with all of its obvious flaws these days.

I myself am Irish Catholic, German Catholic and mixed-blood Indian and was raised around some VERY STRICT German Catholics (my grandmother was full-blooded German) and OMG if that doesn't drive you away from a religion, nothing will. My very German godmother lived to be 101 years of age and oh boy, she was beyond strict! Yikes!

I'm hoping for the best for the Catholic Church and I think the new pope is doing a pretty good job considering what he was handed.

Thank you for your very kind comments!

Erin go braugh eh?

[No Vested Interest]

13. Thanks for sharing. I get the reference to German Catholics...

I've been around them all my life, as my area has a deep German heritage. Yes, they are quite rigid, and intent on 'rules', it seems. (Hope I'm not stepping too hard on anyone's toes.)

I'm from a more easy-going background - 1/2 American-Irish (in the US since 1820, but still grounded in Irish loyalty) and 1/2 French-Canadian, mostly, though a bit of German on both sides. I don't fret much re 'rules'; just trying to get through each day with no harm done to myself or others.

Your story is very interesting, and I'll be looking for your posts.

[tjwmason]

10. The terms have been removed.

In the Extraordinary Form there are quite strict regulations and a Mass takes one of four forms (Pontifical, Solemn, Sung, Low); in most of the anglophone world a 'High Mass' refers to a Missa Solemnis though in America it refers to a Missa Cantata, the latter being a later development for places (such as England and the U.S.) where sourcing the three clerics (Priest, Deacon, and Subdeacon) needed for Solemn Mass was challenging, but there was a desire to have something a bit more 'special' for Sundays and festivals.

The Low Mass was developed when the practice of each Priest saying Mass every day arose - in a church with five Priests (which would mean even quite small places at the time), having five Solemn Masses every day would be beyond ridiculous so a version stripped of ceremonial and music was developed which only needed the Priest and a server. Even though

In the Ordinary Form the distinction between the forms has been removed, and one can largely do what one wants according to circumstances of the place...though the terms are still often used to denote the differences between a Mass which is (largely) said without ceremonial and one which is sung.

The Eastern Rites never developed the concept of 'Low Mass', and their practice is to try and do everything which one can - thus always using incense and always singing, and if possible always having a Deacon assisting the Priest.

[CountAllVotes]

12. Thanks for all of this info.

Wow are you ever well-schooled on the Church!

You must have had quite a role in it at one time or still do today!

Thanks again!