Papal theologian explains why no women priests

[mykpart]

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1300417.htm

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that only men can receive holy orders because Jesus chose men as his apostles and the "apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry." Blessed John Paul II wrote in 1994 that this teaching is definitive and not open to debate among Catholics.

Yet some Catholics persist in asking why, as traditional distinctions between the sexes break down in many areas of society, the Catholic clergy must remain an exclusively male vocation, and what this suggests about the church's understanding of women's worth and dignity.

Few are as well qualified to answer such questions as Dominican Father Wojciech Giertych.
"The son of God became flesh, but became flesh not as sexless humanity but as a male," Father Giertych said; and since a priest is supposed to serve as an image of Christ, his maleness is essential to that role.

Reflecting on differences between the sexes, Father Giertych suggested other reasons that men are especially suited to the priesthood.

Men are more likely to think of God in terms of philosophical definitions and logical syllogisms, he said, a quality valuable for fulfilling a priest's duty to transmit church teaching.

Although the social and administrative aspects of church life are hardly off-limits to women, Father Giertych said priests love the church in a characteristically "male way" when they show concern "about structures, about the buildings of the church, about the roof of the church which is leaking, about the bishops' conference, about the concordat between the church and the state."

[meow2u3]

1. There's another reason

Virgin births, or parthenogenesis, only result in female offspring in nature. For a virgin to give birth to a boy is nothing short of a miracle; it cannot happen naturally.

God knows what He's doing. If Jesus were born a girl, scientists would dismiss the birth as a natural parthenogenesis.

[mykpart]

2. You make an interesting point.

I'm curious, though. Do you agree that God does not want women to serve as priests?

[rug]

3. That's a very weak argument.

"The son of God became flesh, but became flesh not as sexless humanity but as a male," Father Giertych said; and since a priest is supposed to serve as an image of Christ, his maleness is essential to that role.

It reminds me of the agument in the early Church that, since Jesus was a practicing and observant Jew, any Christian convert must be circumcised.

He compounds this argument with rank sexism.

Men are more likely to think of God in terms of philosophical definitions and logical syllogisms, he said, a quality valuable for fulfilling a priest's duty to transmit church teaching.

[olegramps]

4. It is my understanding that women in the early church were responsible for the conversion of women.

It wouldn't have been acceptable for men to be inter-reacting with women in a segregated society. What constitutes being a priest if the primary message was preaching the "Good News" ? Isn't this really a later construct and the arguments that are offered to condone it are little more than sexist nonsense?

[rug]

5. I hadn't heard that.

But I think the primary role of a priest, from early on, was to celebrate the Eucharist.

[olegramps]

16. Not to be argumentative, but firstly you have to hear and accept the Good News, i.e. Gospel.

The eucharist is a celebration and during the early formative years a "Love Feast." In fact, this latter fact led to some rather dubious overly enthusiastic practices that were condemned.

[UrbScotty]

6. Agreed.

One time, I attended a talk on my college campus given by the then-bishop of the diocese (now archbishop in another part of the country). As I recall (it has been a few years), his response to the question centered around tradition - that it's just the way it has been, so it hasn't changed.

Let's not forget that Mary, Mary Magdalene, and other women had roles to play (and in Mary's case, that went beyond just bearing Jesus in the womb). Even today, women continue to evangelize both in word and deed.

[mykpart]

7. I believe there is a persistent notion that began in the middle ages

that a woman's body is somehow unclean. A former priest once told me that the original reason for celibacy for priests was the idea that hands that touched a female's genitalia could not also touch the Eucharist. Of course, now we receive communion in the hand. But in the Greek Orthodox Church, a woman may not receive communion if she is menstruating. Rug, I agree with you that Father Giertych's argument is weak, but it is also fact-selective. Remember that the first person to whom Jesus revealed Himself after His resurrection was a woman. But the superstitions of the hierarchy are self-perpetuating.

[rug]

8. I hadn't heard those reasons.

I'd like to see the role women, aside from Mary, have played in the history of the Church br goven more prominence.

[potone]

11. It is not true that the Orthodox church prohibts menstruating women from receiving communion.

It is true that some Greek Orthodox women do abstain from communion during their periods, especially if they come from a conservative and traditional background, but this is a matter of local custom, not rules of the Church.

[Blue4Texas]

12. And was born Of a woman

Which is the real issue, women can get pregnant

[Manifestor_of_Light]

13. I would DARE a priest to check in my pants and see if I was bleeding.

Damn sausage fest. Why god needs sex organs I don't know.

[47of74]

9. My response to this papal theologian

[hrmjustin]

10. Well we in the Episcopal Church have been ordaining women to be deacons, priests, and bishops, and

women have proven they know what they are doing. I wish the Roman Catholic Church would get with the program. The RCC does a lot of good things and this would be a great thing to do.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

14. What about the letters from Paul saluting Priscilla and other leaders?

Huh?

Jesus was pretty mean and snotty sometimes, even to his own mother.

[georges641]

17. Mean and snotty?

When and where?

Please cite such circumstances.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

19. Lots of places. This is in YOUR Bible. And you worship this God and this Jesus, huh??????

Matthew


353.Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

354.Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

355.Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

356.Jesus warns us not to love our parents or children too much. We have to make sure that we always love him (who we don't even know existed) more than our family. 10:37

357.When Jesus' mother and brothers want to see him, Jesus rudely asks, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" So much for Jesus' family values. 12:47-49

358.Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20: 9, Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

359.In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35

360."It is not good to marry."
After Jesus denounces divorce, his disciples say that if divorce isn't allowed, then "it is good not to marry." Jesus agrees by saying that it is better to make yourself a eunuch "for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." 19:10

361.Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. 19:29

362.There are no marriages in heaven. (Married people either don't go to heaven or they get divorced after arriving there. Marriages aren't made in heaven; they die there.) 22:23-30

363.Jesus tells us to "call no man your father upon the earth." Not even dear old dad? How can we "honor our father" if we refuse to call him our father? 23: 9

364."Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days." Why? Does God especially hate pregnant and nursing women? 24:19

365.The kingdom of heaven like ten virgins who went to meet their bridegroom. Five had oil for their lamps and five didn't. When the bridegroom was ready for them, only the five well-oiled virgins got to have sex with him on their wedding night. The bridegroom shunned the other five, saying "Get lost. I don't even know you." The moral to the story is this: watch out, you never know when (or with whom) Jesus will come.25:1-13

Mark


366. Jesus shows disrespect for his mother and family by asking, "Who is my mother, or my brethren?" when he is told that his family wants to speak with him. 3:31-34

367.Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20 , Dt 21:18-21) 7 -10

368.Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families. 10:29-30

369.There is no sex or marriage in heaven. 12:18-25

370.In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women. 13:17


Luke


371.When Jesus' parents begin the long trip back to Nazareth, the twelve year old Jesus stays behind, without even asking for their permission. Mary and Joseph search for him for three days and when they finally find him, Jesus doesn't apologize. Rather, he blames them for not knowing that he was doing his real father's business. 2:43-49

372.Peter, James, and John leave everything (including their families) to follow Jesus. (See 4:38 for reference to Peter's wife.) 5:11

373.Jesus, when told that his mother and brothers want to see him, ignores and insults them by saying that his mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it. 8:20-21

374.Jesus won't even let his followers bury their dead parents or say farewell to their families before abandoning them. 9:59-62

375.Jesus insults his mother (the Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mary). 11:27-28

376.Jesus prophesies that families will be divided because of him and his teachings. Sadly, this is one prophecy that has been fulfilled. 12:52-53

377.Jesus says that his disciples must hate their families (mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, children) and themselves. 14:26

378.If you want to be a disciple of Jesus, you must abandon everything, including your family. 14:33

379.Abandon your wife and family for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. 18:29-30

380.Jesus says that everyone in heaven is single. Does that mean that married people can't go there, that they must get a divorce once they arrive, or what? 20:27-35

381."Ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks."
Families and friendships will be torn apart because of Jesus. 21:16


John


382.As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16

383.Jesus tells his family that he wasn't going to the feast, but later goes "in secret." 7: 8-10


====================



Matthew


1150.Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

1151.Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

1152.Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

1153.Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

1154.Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

1155."The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

1156.Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

1157.Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

1158.Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15

1159.Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

1160.Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

1161.Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

1162.Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

1163.Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

1164.Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20: 9, Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

1165."Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." 15:13

1166.Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

1167.In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35

1168."And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

1169.God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. 21:33-41

1170."Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Whoever falls on "this stone" (Jesus) will be broken, and whomever the stone falls on will be ground into powder. 21:44

1171.In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:1-14

1172.The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquakes (6-7). And that's just "the beginning of sorrows" (8). Next believers will be hated and killed by unbelievers (9), believers will hate and betray each other (10), false prophets will fool people (11), iniquity will abound and love wax cold (12). But hey, if you make through all that, you'll be saved (13).
Only one more thing will happen before the end comes: the gospel will be preached throughout the world (14). Well, that and the abomination of desolations will stand in the holy place (15), many false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders (24), the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall (29), the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, everyone on earth will mourn, and then, finally, the great and powerful son of Man will come in all his glory (30).

Oh, and all these things will happen within the lifespan of Jesus' contemporaries (34).

Or maybe not. Jesus was talking about things he knew nothing about (36). (See Mark 13:32.) 24:3-51


1173.Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

1174.God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

1175.The parable of the cruel and unjust master
The kingdom of heaven is like a rich man who distributed his wealth to his servants while he traveled. He gave five talents (a talent was a unit of money, worth about 20 years of a worker's wages) to one servant, two to another, and one to a third. When he returned, the servant with five talents had made five more, the servant with two made two more, but the servant with one talent only had the talent his master entrusted to him. The master rewarded the servants that invested his money (without his permission -- what would have happened if the stock market went down during their master's travels?) and took the talent from the single-talent servant and gave it to the one with ten talents. "For unto every one that hath shall be given .. but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." Then the cruel and unjust master cast the servant who carefully protected his master's talent into the "outer darkness: [where] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:14-30

1176.The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

1177.Jesus judges the nations. 25:31-46

1178.Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

1179.Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

Mark


1180.Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

1181.Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

1182.Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

1183.Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20: 9, Dt 21:18-21) 7: 9-10

1184.Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49

1185.God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and gives the vineyard to others. 12:1-9

1186.Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 14:22-24

1187.Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. 16:16


Luke


1188.Zechariah asks the angel Gabriel how his wife Elizabeth could become pregnant, since she is "stricken with years." Gabriel makes him "dumb" just for asking. 1:20

1189.Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 3

1190.John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17

1191.Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. 8:27-37

1192.Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15

1193.Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5

1194.Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47

1195."Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." 13:3, 5

1196.According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30

1197.In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31

1198. Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. 17:26-27

1199.Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32

1200.In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27

1201.Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 22:19-20

John


1202.Jesus believed the stupid and vicious story from Numbers 21. (God sent snakes to bite the people for complaining about the lack of food and water. Then God told Moses to make a brass snake to cure them from the bites.) 3:14

1203."God so loved the world, that he gave his His only begotten Son."
As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16

1204.People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36

1205.The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36

1206.Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14

1207.Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6

1208.Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." (They are called Protestants nowadays.) 6:53-66

Acts


1209.Peter claims that Dt 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23

1210.Peter and God scare Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land. 5:1-10

1211.Peter has a dream in which God show him "wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls." The voice (God's?) says, "Rise, Peter: kill and eat." 10:10-13

1212.Peter describes the vision that he had in the last chapter (10:10-13). All kinds of beasts, creeping things, and fowls drop down from the sky in a big sheet, and a voice (God's, Satan's?) tells him to "Arise, Peter; slay and eat." 11:5-10

1213.The "angel of the Lord" killed Herod by having him "eaten of worms" because "he gave not God the glory." 12:23

1214.David was "a man after [God's] own heart." 13:22

1215.The author of Acts talks about the "sure mercies of David." But David was anything but merciful. For an example of his behavior see 2 Sam 12:31 and 1 Chr 20:3, where he saws, hacks, and burns to death the inhabitants of several cities. 13:34

1216.Paul and the Holy Ghost conspire together to make Elymas (the sorcerer) blind. 13:8-11

Romans


1217. Homosexuals (those "without natural affection&quot and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them&quot are "worthy of death." 1:31-32

1218.The guilty are "justified" and "saved from wrath" by the blood of an innocent victim. 5

1219.God punishes everyone for someone else's sin; then he saves them by killing an innocent victim. 5:12

1220."If ... we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son", then God is truly a monster. 5:10


1 Corinthians


1221.If you defile the temple of God, God will destroy you. 3:17

1222.Paul claims that God killed 23,000 in a plague for "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab 10:8

1223.If you tempt Christ (How could you tempt Christ?), you'll will die from snake bites. 10

1224.If you murmur, you'll be destroyed by the destroyer (God). 10:10

2 Corinthians
1225.The terror of the Lord 5:11

Galatians

1226.If anyone dares to disagree with Paul on religious matters, "let him be accursed." 1: 8-9

Ephesians


1227.We are predestined by God to go to either heaven or hell. None of our thoughts, words, or actions can affect the final outcome. 1:4-5, 11

1228.God had his son murdered to keep himself from hurting others for things they didn't do. 1

1229.The bloody death of Jesus smelled good to God. 5:2

1230.Those who refuse to obey will face the wrath of God. 5:6




Colossians


1231.God bought us with someone else's blood. 1:14

1232.God makes peace through blood. 1:19-20

1 Thessalonians


1233.God is planning a messy, mass murder in "the wrath to come" and only Jesus can save you from it. 1:10

1234.Christians shouldn't mourn the death of their fellow believers. They'll be OK and you'll see them later in heaven. The people you should mourn are dead nonbelievers. They have no hope (because they're going to hell). 4:13

2 Thessalonians


1235.Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." 1 -9

1236.Jesus will "consume" the wicked "with the spirit of his mouth." 2:8

1237.God will cause us to believe lies so that he can damn our souls to hell. 2:11-12







Hebrews


1238."That which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."
Apostates will burn in hell with the other non-believers. 6:8

1239."Melchisedec ... met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him."
God showed his approval of "the slaughter of the kings" with Melchisedec's blessing of Abraham. (Genesis 14:17-18) 7:1

1240.God will not forgive anyone unless something is killed for him in a bloody manner. 9 :13-22

1241."A certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."
God will soon destroy non-believers in a fiery hell. 10:27

1242.Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29

1243."Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord." 10:30

1244."It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." 10:31

1245."Abraham ... offered up Isaac ... his only begotten son." (And this was a good thing? How fucked up is that?) 11:17

1246.The Israelites kept the passover and sprinkled blood on doorposts so that God wouldn't kill their firstborn children (like he did the Egyptians in Exodus 12:29). 11:28

1247.God saved Rahab because she believed. (He killed all the non-believers in Jericho.) 11:31

1248."Time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets."
The heroes of faith: Gideon, Samson, Jephthah, David, and Samuel. It would be hard to find a more monstrous group than these guys. 11:32

1249."Others were tortured ... that they might obtain a better resurrection." 11:35

1250.God ordered animals to be "stoned, or thrust through with a dart" if they "so much as ... touch the mountain." 12:20

1251."Ye are come ... to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel." 12:22-24


James


1252.James says Abraham was justified by works (for being willing to kill his son for God); Paul (Romans 4:2-3) says he was justified by faith (for believing that God would order him to do such an evil act). 2:21
1 Peter


1253.We are all, according to Peter, predestined to be saved or damned. We have no say in the matter. It was all determined by "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."1:2

1254."The precious blood of Christ ... was foreordained before the foundation of the world."
God planned to kill Jesus from the get-go. 1:19-20

1255.God drowned everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. 3:20
2 Peter


1256.God drowned everyone else on earth except for Noah and his family. 2:5, 3:6

1257."Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes" 2:6

1258.God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. 3

1259.When Jesus returns, he'll burn up the whole earth and everything on it. 3:10
1 John


1260.Christians are washed in the blood of Jesus. 1




Jude


1261."The Lord destroyed them that believed not." 5

1262.God sent "eternal fire" on the people of Sodom and Gomorrah for "going after strange flesh." 7-8

Revelation

1263.Jesus "washed us ... with his own blood." 1:5

1264.Everyone on earth will wail because of Jesus. 1

1265.Jesus has "the keys of hell and death." 1:18

1266.Repent -- or else Jesus will fight you with the sword that sticks out of his mouth. (Like the limbless knight in Monty Python's "Holy Grail.&quot 2:16

1267."I [Jesus] will kill her children with death." 2:23

1268."Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." God created parasites, pathogens, and predators for his very own pleasure. One of his favorite species is guinea worms. 4:11

1269."Thou art worthy ... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood." 5

1270.God gives someone on a white horse a bow and sends him out to conquer people. 6:2

1271.God gave power to someone on a red horse "to take from the earth ... that they should kill one another." 6:4

1272.God tells Death and Hell to kill one quarter of the earth's population with the sword, starvation, and "with the beasts of the earth." 6:8

1273.The martyrs just can't wait until everyone else is slaughtered. God gives them a white robe and tells them to wait until he's done with his killing spree. 6:10-11

1274.God tells his murderous angels to "hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of your God on their foreheads." This verse is one that Christians like to use to show God's loving concern for the environment. But the previous verse (7:2) makes it clear that it was their God-given job to "hurt the earth and the sea" just as soon as they finished their forehead marking job. 7:3

1275.144,000 Jews will be going to heaven; everyone else is going to hell. 7:4

1276.Those that survive the great tribulation will get to wash their clothes in the blood of the lamb. 7:14

1277.God sends his angels to destroy a third part of all the trees, grass, sea creature, mountains, sun, moon, starts, and water. 8 -13

1278."Many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." 8:11

1279.The angels are instructed not to "hurt the grass [how could they? He already had all the grass killed in 8 ] ... but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads." God tells his angels not to kill them, but rather torment them with scorpions for five months. Those tormented will want to die, but God won't let them. 9:4-6

1280.God makes some horse-like locusts with human heads, women's hair, lion's teeth, and scorpion's tails. They sting people and hurt them for five months. 9 -10

1281.Four angels, with an army of 200 million, killed a third of the earth's population. 9:15-19

1282. Anyone that messes with God's two olive trees and two candlesticks (God's witnesses) will be burned to death by fire that comes out of their mouths. 11:3-5

1283.God's witnesses have special powers. They can shut up heaven so that it cannot rain, turn rivers into blood, and smite the earth with plagues "as often as they will." 11:6

1284.After God's witnesses "have finished their testimony," they are killed in a war with a beast from a bottomless pit. 11

1285.The bodies of God's witnesses will lie unburied for three and a half days. People will "rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another." After another three and half days God brings his witnesses back to life and they ascend into heaven. 11:8-12

1286.When the witnesses ascend into heaven, an earthquake kills 7000 men. This was the second woe. "The third woe cometh quickly." 11:13-14

1287."The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
God planned to kill Jesus before he created the world. 13:8

1288.Those who receive the mark of the beast will "drink of the wine of the wrath of God ... and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." 14:10-11

1289.Jesus sits on a white cloud with a sharp sickle in his hand. When the angel tells him to reap, he kills all the people with his sickle. 14:14-18

1290."The great winepress of the wrath of God ... was trodden ... and the blood cam out of the winepress, even unto the horses bridles." 14:19-20

1291.Seven angels with seven plagues are filled with the wrath of God. 15:1, 7

1292.The seven vials of wrath: 1) sores, 2) sea turned to blood, 3) rivers turned to blood, 4) people scorched with fire, 5) people gnaw their tongues in pain, 6) Euphrates dries up, 7) thunder, lightning, earthquake, and hail. 16:1

1293."There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast." 16:2

1294."The second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." 16:3

1295."The third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood." 16:4

1296.God gave the saints and prophets blood to drink. 16:6

1297.Another angel tells God how righteous he is because he gives saints blood to drink. 16

1298."Power was given unto him [the fourth angel] to scorch men with fire." 16:8

1299.Those who were being burned to death by God didn't repent "to give him glory." 16

1300."The fifth angel poured out his vial ... and they gnawed their tongues for pain." 16:10

1301.Even after being burned alive, those nasty people wouldn't repent! 16:11

1302.Christians will fight in the war between Jesus and those allied with the beast. 17:14

1303."They shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Are they going to eat her first and then burn her?) 17:16-17

1304.To punish her God will send plagues and famine, and "she will be utterly burned with fire." 18:8

1305.God will send plagues, death, and famine on Babylon, and the kings "who have committed fornication with her" will be sad to see her burn. 18:8-9

1306.Jesus makes war. 19:11

1307.Jesus' clothes are dipped in blood and his secret name ("that no man knew&quot is "The Word of God". (I bet you thought it was Jesus!) 19:13

1308.With eyes aflame, many crowns on his head, clothes dripping with blood, a sword sticking out of his mouth, and a secret name, Jesus leads the faithful in heaven into holy war on earth. 19:14-15

1309."Come ... unto the supper of the great God." An angel calls all the fowls to feast upon the flesh of dead horses and human bodies, "both free and bond, both small and great." 19:17-18

1310.The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest were killed with the sword of Jesus. "And all the fowls were filled with their flesh." 19:20-21

1311.God will send fire from heaven to devour people. And the devil will be tormented "day and night for ever and ever." 20 -10

1312.Whoever isn't found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. 20:15

1313.All liars, as well as those who are fearful or unbelieving, will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." 21:8



================================================

[georges641]

20. I wouldn't know where to begin with this.

Maybe you could pick one or two points that are most important to you and we could discuss from there.

But since you said the Bible is "YOUR Bible" to me, then I take it you are not a Catholic or a Christian, and if that is the case, why are you here in this group dissing the Bible and Christian beliefs? Isn't this a "safe space" to express them?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

21. I wouldn't know where to begin either. There are so many contradictions that it's meaningless.

I expect religion to be rational and consistent, at least sometimes.

[georges641]

22. It's very consistent if you give it an honest and fair look.

A litany of accusations, lies, and half-truths copied and pasted from a Christian-hating site proves nothing and enlightens no one.

If you would like to have an actual and meaningful discussion, post something that can be addressed in a reasonable amount of time, and something in your own words.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

23. Those are DIRECT QUOTES.

Those are not interpretations.

Those are not "accusations, lies, and half-truths".

So direct quotes from the Bible are from a "Christian hating site"???

Please tell me where all that hatred is consistent with the loving parts of what Jesus said.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

15. Here is something I posted last October

I am extremely familiar with the Vatican's arguments against the ordination of women, and believe that they are a load of dingo's kidneys.

You should know that the document John Paul II relied on was Inter Insigniores, a position paper on women's ordination put out by the Vatican in 1976. Had one of my students given me this, I would have sent it back with comments about shoddy reasoning.

Here is the first paragraph of Inter Insigniores :

The Catholic Church has never felt that priestly or episcopal ordination can be validly conferred on women. A few heretical sects in the first centuries, especially Gnostic ones, entrusted the exercise of the priestly ministry to women: This innovation was immediately noted and condemned by the Fathers, who considered it as unacceptable in the Church. It is true that in the writings of the Fathers, one will find the undeniable influence of prejudices unfavourable to woman, but nevertheless, it should be noted that these prejudices had hardly any influences on their pastoral activity, and still less on their spiritual direction. But over and above these considerations inspired by the spirit of the times, one finds expressed -- especially in the canonical documents of the Antiochan and Egyptian traditions -- this essential reason, namely, that by calling only men to the priestly Order and ministry in its true sense, the Church intends to remain faithful to the type of ordained ministry willed by the Lord Jesus Christ and carefully maintained by the Apostles. If the examples cited by in this document as the testimony of the Church Fathers are at all representative of what tradition has to offer, one must acknowledge that their testimony offers meager support for the claim that the tradition of not ordaining women was motivated primarily by the Church's intention to remain faithful to the will of Christ.

For example, Inter Insignores quotes an early Church document, the Didascalia (circa 225):

For it is not to teach that you women ... are appointed.... For he, God the Lord, Jesus Christ our Teacher, sent us, the Twelve, out to teach the people and the pagans. But there were female disciples among us: Mary of Magdala, Mary the daughter of Jacob, and the other Mary; he did not, however, send them out with us to teach the people. For, if it had been necessary that women should teach, then our Teacher would have directed them to instruct along with us.

(Note that the author of the Didiscalia is speaking as if he were one of the Twelve.) However, Inter Insigniores neglects to quote the portion immediately following:

That a woman should baptise, or that one should be baptised by a woman, we do not counsel, for it is a transgression of the commandment, and a great peril to her who baptises and to him who is baptised. For if it were lawful to be baptised by a woman, our Lord and teacher himself would have been baptised by Mary his mother, whereas He was baptised by John, like others of the people. Do not therefore imperil yourselves, brethren and sisters, by acting beside the law of the gospel.

We need only to observe that today one does not regard women as incapable of teaching or baptizing. Since we do not admit this inability, we cannot argue from the Didiscalia for evidence against the ability of women to receive priestly ordination.

Incidentally, the statement "It is true that in the writings of the Fathers, one will find the undeniable influence of prejudices unfavourable to woman, but nevertheless, it should be noted that these prejudices had hardly any influences on their pastoral activity, and still less on their spiritual direction" fascinates me. What this seems to say is that the way one thinks does not affect how one acts? If they means this argument seriously, then this is the finest piece of rationalisation since I heard my then six-year-old son arguing why he should be allowed to go see Mad Max. This is nonsensical. Moreover, it is untrue.

What is happening here is that the Vatican is (a) admitting that the Fathers were prejudiced and (ii) attempting to deny that this prejudice actually means anything. To take a parallel case, many of the Fathers were also prejudiced against Jews -- John Chyrsostom and Cyril of Alexandria are particularly egregious offenders here -- and it certainly did affect their "pastoral activity", as both Chyrsostom and Cyril issued diatribes against the Jews and drove them from their respective sees of Constantinople and Alexandria.

What I suspect that what the author of Inter Insigniores had in mind was things like Jerome's letters to various women which are filled with concern and advice (note that I do not say good advice, but that is another topic for another time), despite Jerome's often-expressed distain for women in general.

No, the prejudices of the Fathers certainly did affect their teaching, because they believed that women were, by nature, inferior to men. Thomas Aquinas, in the Summa Theologica Supplement, question 39, article 1 considers the question, "Whether the female sex is an impediment to receiving Orders?". He says that it is, for two reasons. The first is that women are inferior to men ("since it is not possible in the female sex to signify eminence of degree, for a woman is in the state of subjection, it follows that she cannot receive the sacrament of Orders&quot . The Vatican has officially repudiated this argument.

The second reason is:

Further, the crown is required previous to receiving Orders, albeit not for the validity of the sacrament. But the crown or tonsure is not befitting to women according to 1 Cor. 11. Neither therefore is the receiving of Orders.

Now, he admits that "the crown" -- by which he means the tonsure (a ritual shaving of the head) -- is not required for the validity of the sacrament. Indeed, the tonsure is not performed nowadays. Thus, this reason, which was shaky in Aquinas' day, no longer is a real objection. Therefore, the reasons given by one of the foremost theologians vanish into air, into thin air.

Inter Insigniores now tries something sneaky. It says:

The Church's tradition in the matter has thus been so firm in the course of the centuries that the Magisterium has not felt the need to intervene in order to formulate a principle which was not attacked, or to defend a law which was not challenged.

And why was this not challenged? Because everyone "knew" that women were unfit for ordination, because of their inferiority to men. Thus, as I said, the Catholic Church now teaches that women should no longer be seen as inferior to men, while still basing its argument against the ordination of women on that inferiority. This goes beyond shoddy all the way to dishonest.

For another example, which involves bad theology, one of the arguments made is that the priest must "image Christ", and since Christ was a man, then the priest must be a man. Inter Insigniores says

The Christian priesthood is therefore of a sacramental nature: the priest is a sign, the supernatural effectiveness of which comes from the ordination received, but a sign that must be perceptible and which the faithful must be able to recognise with ease. The whole sacramental economy is in fact based upon natural signs, on symbols imprinted on the human psychology: 'Sacramental signs,' says St.Thomas,' represent what they signify by natural resemblance.' The same natural resemblance is required for persons as for things: when Christ's role in the Eucharist is to be expressed sacramentally, there would not be this 'natural resemblance' which must exist between Christ and his minister if the role of Christ were not taken by a man: in such a case it would be difficult to see in the minister the image of Christ. For Christ himself was and remains a man.

Do they really think that the congregation is so stupid that they could not see Christ in a woman priest? Indeed, I daresay that the congregation would find it far more difficult to see Christ in a pedophile.

Second, and more importantly, they are bringing up a disturbing question: If women cannot represent Christ, then how can Christ represent women?

About 1800 years ago, there was a discussion about whether or not Christ was truly human. (If anyone wants me to, I can post on this discussion.) It was determined that Christ is truly human, and a principal argument was advanced by Irenaeus of Lyons, who wrote Quod non assumpsit, non redemit -- "That which is not assumed is not redeemed". In other words, if Christ were not truly human, he could not have redeemed humanity. This has been the officially orthodox Christian belief ever since the Council of Chalcedon in 451.

But if Christ is only male, then he cannot have redeemed women. This is completely unacceptable to any Christian. Thus, the Vatican's statement that only men can bear a true image of Christ makes no sense theologically.

Simply put, the official arguments against the ordination of women, as put forth by the Catholic establishment, are crap.

[georges641]

18. Anyone can baptize.

We need only to observe that today one does not regard women as incapable of teaching or baptizing.

That a woman may baptize someone doesn't advance the argument for ordination of women, as anyone who baptizes someone using the proper form, makes a valid baptism. An atheist or one of another faith could baptize validly, yet his beliefs would preclude him from being ordained. I am a Catholic man and could baptize someone, though I wouldn't do it unless under extraordinary circumstances, yet the fact that I could baptize doesn't mean I could be ordained a priest, and there are several reasons why I could not become a priest and why I am shut out from going down that road.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

24. You missed my point

The Didache says that women cannot be ordained because they are unfit to preform any sacramental function. The Didache then goes on to say that, by the same reasoning, women cannot baptize. Since the argument against women baptizing is considered to be bogus, then so is the argument against women being ordained.

The basic argument against the ordination of women is that women are inferior to men. This argument has officially been abandoned as untrue. IN FACT, there is NO valid argument against the ordination of women.

I notice that you did not address anything else I said in that post.