Catholics Cheer Pope's Remarks On Gays, Abortion

[Purveyor]

NEW YORK (AP) -- Catholics attending Sunday services around the globe said they were heartened by Pope Francis' recent remarks that the church has become too focused on "small-minded rules" on hot-button issues like homosexuality, abortion and contraceptives.

Worshippers applauded what they heard as a message of inclusion from the man who assumed the papacy just six months ago.

"I think he's spot on," said Shirley Holzknecht, 77, a retired school principal attending services in Little Rock, Ark. "As Catholic Christians, we do need to be more welcoming."

In Havana, Cuba, Irene Delgado said the church needs to adapt to modern times.

"The world evolves, and I believe that the Catholic Church is seeing that it is being left behind, and that is not good," said Delgado, 57. "So I think that they chose this Pope Francis because he is progressive, has to change things."

MORE...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POPE_SUNDAY_SERVICES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-09-22-18-38-04

[cbayer]

1. I think a lot of catholics are breathing a big sigh of relief about this new pope.

Cautiously optimistic, but if this indicates the beginning of some change, I share their positive response.

[longship]

2. A Pope who's a cafeteria Catholic?

Can't wait for his Biblical justifications so I can make a Bible sock puppet remark.

Just kidding. I couldn't resist.

I always view Church/Mosque/Temple reform as a good thing. Anything to lighten -- dare I use enlighten? -- the tone of religion.

This would be the form of the avirulence of which Dennett speaks so often.

If only the rest of them followed suit.

[cbayer]

3. I read a comment recently (can't remember where) that essentially said:

"What's wrong with cafeterias? I've had some of my best meals there."

[longship]

4. As long as it isn't an automat.

I'll buy the first round of drinks.

[cbayer]

5. I remember my first visit to the automat in NYC.

I loved it, primarily because it was so different.

I'll get the second round.

[xfundy]

6. PR move.

Changes nothing.

[skepticscott]

7. Of course all of these sheep

heard only what they wanted to hear and ignored his statements that he is fully behind the RCC positions on abortion, contraception, sexism and anti-gay bigotry. Nothing but window dressing and PR for the gullible here.

[rug]

9. Sheep? Now is that a criticm of the tenets of Catholicism or of Catholics?

And are you referring to DUers as "the gullible here" or only Catholics?

[skepticscott]

10. It is a criticism of and reference to anyone

who is easily led, who swallows whole and uncritically what they want to hear or what they want to believe, while routinely ignoring or dismissing anything to the contrary.

[rug]

11. I know what gullible is. The question is who you are calling gullible.

It's your word and your aim. Own it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. As in a 'flock'

It's a common metaphor in the Bible and churches. Good people are like sheep. Bad ones are like goats. Bishops have croziers, modelled on shepherd's crooks.

Christians are generally taught to be proud of being sheep.

[rug]

18. The Bible also addresses asses.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. But doesn't regard religious followers as asses

so that would be off-topic.

It's a serious theological point - Judaism and Christianity see sheep as something the believers should aspire to be (and it wouldn't surprise me if Islam did too, with the 'submission' meaning). I am surprised you felt the need to make an 'ass' remark, when I brought up a significant religious topic. Maybe the many references to sheep in the Bible embarrass you? They did play a part in my own decision to stop seeing the Bible as a worthwhile guide to morality or reality.

[rug]

20. Lots of words have many meanings.

I'm sure scottie used it in its pious sense.

As to the ass reference, Proverbs 26:3 for some reason leapt into my mind. Isn't religion fascinating?

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. Do you believe that the biblical 'pious' sense refers to independent, non-gullible sheep?

"He's that most dangerous of animals, a clever sheep"

[rug]

24. It can, objectively.

Do you think that was his intent, subjectively?

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. 'Objectively'?

Explain, please.

[rug]

29. A word can objectively have several meanings.

I.e., each meaning can be commonly - and objectively - understood.

What particular meaning one intends when using a word is subjective.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Explain the metaphorical meaning of sheep that is 'independent' or 'non-gullible'

I haven't seen it used that way. You're not thinking of 'fox', for instance, are you?

[rug]

33. You'll have to ask Eric Idle that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. So you're going to take an absurd comedy sketch as providing an 'objective' meaning?

This is a new meaning of 'objective' I was previously unaware of.

[rug]

35. Not at all. Do you dispute that words have objective meaning?

Do you dispute that posters can subjectively intend one of those meanings?

Or are you just trying to turn the thread into an absurd comedy sketch?

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. If you want to show that your interpretation of the meaning of 'sheep' in the bible is 'objective'

then at least make an attempt to. Just because words can have objective meanings, that doesn't imply that the meaning you choose is an objective one. But trying to back up the 'objective' meaning by pointing to the sketch I earlier quoted really shows you're not interested in proving your point.

So, we may as well stick with the dictionary ('objective') definition of sheep as unintelligent, easily-lead animals.

[rug]

38. I don't have eight pounds.

Well, yes I do but I don't want to spend it foolishly.

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. You see, I tried to tell you why 'sheep' is a valid term to use with Christians

pointing out the extensive use of the term by Christians for themselves, and you replied with 'asses'. It seem to me that you're the person who wants an argument for the sake of it, and hasn't bothered putting forward a contribution to the discussion.

I should have remembered that it's rare for you to actually want to discuss anything.

[cbayer]

22. When did being a sheep become a negative, anyway.

I think at the time it was used, they were seen as having mostly positive qualities. They are generally peaceful, take care of each other and not very territorial. They do tend to follow leaders, but the work of sheep dogs indicates that they also make up their own minds at times. They were highly prized for all the good things they provided during the times these stories were written.

Now the word is used as something closer to lemming, which sheep certainly are not.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. The parable of the lost sheep? Psalm 23?

The message of the Bible, both Old and New Testament, is that sheep need looking after. God, or priests, are the 'shepherd'.

[cbayer]

25. For a believer, I don't think that would be a negative....

I think it's just been turned against them by some.

[pinto]

27. The Jesus story reflects the culture of its time. I think they cast Jesus as one of the sheep,

one of the flock. In a positive take - sheep were an essential part of daily life.

Lambs were ritually slaughtered as offerings in that time. The retelling of Jesus' crucifixion, a common Roman practice in that time, ritualized his slaughter. In that sense, he may not have only been a symbolic shepherd, but a symbolic member of the flock.

The numerous depictions of Jesus carrying a lamb may refer to that.

[MellowDem]

8. Nothing to cheer about...

All he said is that the Church should stop focusing on things that make them unpopular. Whoop dee doo. Why is anyone excited? I guess some people are so invested in their idea of what the church is supposed to be that they'll grab onto anything to pretend it's changing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. His remarks on abortion were "it's always wrong"

The much-vaunted interview in which he said "we have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel" just talks about abortion as a problem in the past of a hypothetical woman who feels guilty about it, and then says "we cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible". I don't know what that means. Is it a bad translation - should it be "we must do something else than insist on issues ..." - ie that they should stop insisting? Or that they should insist on other issues as well?

But since we then had "Pope Francis denounces abortion after decrying church's focus on rules"

Even before the interview was published, some conservatives had voiced disappointment that Francis had shied away from restating such church rules. Francis explained his reason for doing so in the interview with the Jesuit journal La Civilta Cattolica, saying church teaching on such issues is well-known, he supports it, but that he doesn't feel it necessary to repeat it constantly.

He did repeat it on Friday, however. In his comments, Francis denounced today's "throw-away culture" that justifies disposing of lives, and said doctors in particular had been forced into situations where they are called to "not respect life."

"Every child that isn't born, but is unjustly condemned to be aborted, has the face of Jesus Christ, has the face of the Lord," he said.

He urged the gynecologists to abide by their consciences and help bring lives into the world. "Things have a price and can be for sale, but people have a dignity that is priceless and worth far more than things," he said.

So is this just a message that the tone is going to change, but not the dogma?

[cbayer]

14. I don't think the pope can singlehandedly change dogma, but he can change tone.

It's a difficult line to walk at times, but I do think he is making serious attempts to change tone.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. But I wonder why a change in PR direction is held to be so important (nt)

[cbayer]

16. Well, I would say because, like it or not, the pope and the RCC are in positions of influence.

I see the pope changing the focus to the poor and war to be much better than the focus on abortion and GLBT rights.

[trotsky]

17. Talking about it and doing it are two different things. n/t

[Arugula Latte]

26. It's all smoke-and-mirrors PR from the Vatican.

They Medieval Ones cling tightly to their anti-women, anti-gay policies.

[trotsky]

31. While the new pope is out there putting a kinder face on the church's bigotry and intolerance...

it nonetheless continues unabated.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121895534

[skepticscott]

32. As does the fawning praise and the apologetics

from Catholics who are tired of feeling ashamed of what their church does and what it stands for, but who cling to any excuse to stay and keep supporting it.

[rug]

36. Lol!