Pope Bluntly Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion

[cbayer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/20/world/europe/pope-bluntly-faults-churchs-focus-on-gays-and-abortion.html


Pope Francis, who has said the church should be a “home for all,” on Sept. 4 in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican.

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: September 19, 2013 274 Comments

Pope Francis, in the first extensive interview of his six-month-old papacy, said that the Roman Catholic church had grown “obsessed” with preaching about abortion, gay marriage and contraception, and that he has chosen not to speak of those issues despite recriminations from some critics.

In remarkably blunt language, Francis sought to set a new tone for the church, saying it should be a “home for all” and not a “small chapel” focused on doctrine, orthodoxy and a limited agenda of moral teachings.

“It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time,” the pope told the Rev. Antonio Spadaro, a fellow Jesuit and editor in chief of La Civiltà Cattolica, the Italian Jesuit journal whose content is routinely approved by the Vatican. “The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently.

“We have to find a new balance,” the pope continued, “otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.”

more at link

[BainsBane]

1. I was just about to post a similar article I saw on Yahoo

He decries the Church's obsession with abortion and homosexuality.

Pope Francis has warned that the Catholic Church's moral structure might "fall like a house of cards" if it doesn't balance its divisive rules about abortion, gays and contraception with the greater need to make the church a merciful, more welcoming place for all.

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-warns-church-must-balance-fail-145841304.html

This Pope may be turning out to be much better than anticipated.

[cbayer]

3. I find him to be taking a more positive turn than most of his predecessors.

He can't singlehandedly change church doctrine, but he can steer the ship in better directions.

Overall, I remain guardedly optimistic.

[skepticscott]

2. In other words

Our doctrine and teachings about gays will stay exactly the same, but we're going to try not to call so much attention to out anti-gay bigotry.

[BainsBane]

4. There is no doctrine or teaching about gays

as far as I know. There was a very loud mouthed, bigoted Pope. Practicing Catholics can speak more authoritatively on the subject. I think you would be hard pressed to find a Catholic who has heard their priest discuss homosexuality. I went to Catholic school and mass for a couple of years and never heard it mentioned. My 8th grade teacher, Sister Jackie Slater, was an alderwoman and advocate for gay rights in the 1970s and 80s, before her untimely death from cancer. When she died, the city's gay community turned out in large numbers to mourn her passing.

[trotsky]

5. The official church position on homosexuality is the old...

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" chestnut. A homosexual person cannot live a full, sexual life with the person they love and also remain a Catholic in good standing.

[BainsBane]

6. I don't know where that comes from

At what level it operates. It doesn't figure into the mass. Again, I'm far from authoritative on the subject.

The fact is, lots of gay people do live full, sexual lives and remain Catholics in good standing. Remember that what you read in the newspaper is very different from daily religiosity.

[trotsky]

7. Officially, and according to church teachings, they don't.

I agree that what typical Catholics believe and do doesn't match up with the official church positions. The phrase "Cafeteria Catholic" exists for a reason.

Sex outside of a sacramental marriage is a sin, according to your church. Since gays cannot receive a sacramental marriage, they are sinning and are not Catholics in good standing.

Again, this is what your church teaches and says. Just reporting the facts. I am glad the current pope wants to de-emphasize this, but the official policy is not changing.

[BainsBane]

8. "My Church"

Last time I went was in the 1990s, so I don't think that's a very accurate term. Nor was I ever confirmed Catholic.

What the church teaches implies that actually convey it to prisoners. From what I have heard from practicing Catholics, that is not the case. My Grandmother told me in the 70s or 80s that her priest said using birth control was a matter of personal conscience. He never told them not to use it. So while the Council of Bishops may natter on about such things, it is not typically communicated at the parish level.

Surely in your life you've known some Catholic women? I don't know if you're straight, but if you are, you have to know that sex outside marriage is hardly any Catholic women worry about. I expect that is at least as true for Catholic men. I never heard a priest or nun talk about any of this stuff. In fact, my Catholic school had sex ed class where they taught about birth control and passed around condoms.

[trotsky]

9. Again, I dispute none of that.

I reported the RCC's official position on the matter. If individual Catholics choose to disregard it, more power to them. But that doesn't change their church. (Or what the church uses their donations to do.)

[BainsBane]

15. I heard something relating to this on BBC radio today

Evidently Francis differentiated between doctrinal teachings and moral teachings. The former are key aspects of the faith like the Resurrection. Moral teachings don't hold the same level of importance, and he argued that the Church has spent far too much time talking about far less important moral issues than the key doctrinal teachings. They also said the Pope expressed regret for how he conducted himself as Provincial of the Jesuits in Argentina and in particular his authoritarian approach to running the order.

[Humanist_Activist]

10. "The fact is, lots of gay people do live full, sexual lives and remain Catholics in good standing."

That is blatantly not true, the Church calls for all to be celibate until marriage, if you are not, and are unrepentant, then you cannot accept the Eucharist.

[cbayer]

11. And that is obeyed and enforced just about never.

[Humanist_Activist]

12. Only when not found out by the Church...

if they find out you are, for example, living with your SO, in a state of sin, there are repercussions.

[cbayer]

13. That's just not followed in the real world.

As the pope said in this interview (and I'm paraphrasing here), not all rules are equal. Some are very important, others not so much.

He can't change doctrine, but he recognizes that some of the rules that are pretty much universally ignored should not garner much attention at this point.

That would include celibacy before marriage. It's pretty much universally ignored both by catholics in general and by the priests who work directly with parishioners.

But most surprisingly, he included GLBT issues and abortion as well.

[trotsky]

27. Yet it is still the church policy.

No one has been able to dispute this fact, and clearly that includes you.

[BainsBane]

14. No one pays attention to that

You think Catholics are all fundamentalists? Honestly, that's hysterical. I went to Catholic School and never heard that in my life.

[Humanist_Activist]

16. Not Catholics, but the hierarchy, no where in my post did I say anything about laypeople.

I thought we were talking about Clergy, you know, the ones who run things most of the time?

Most Catholic laypeople don't give a shit, and most aren't even aware of half the shit in the Catechism or any other doctrine or ritual outside of the Stations of the Cross and Eucharist. There opinions matter in the secular sphere, but not in Church, its not really run by them, after all.

[BainsBane]

19. Also most priests

but you're right that most of the cardinals and bishops are bigots.

[okasha]

36. That is blatantly true.

It happens every day.

[Dorian Gray]

22. They do all the time in my church

in Park Slope, Brooklyn.

Hell, one man is the church organist while another is a lectern. They're both in gay relationships and seem to be in good standing in our community.

[trotsky]

28. Once again, I don't dispute that some Catholics violate their church's policy.

But the official policy is exactly as I have stated.

[Dorian Gray]

40. Most everybody in the world

butts up against or violates whatever policy they're faced with in most circumstances. It's the human condition.

[trotsky]

41. And thank goodness for that in this situation.

But the official church positions and policies are still in effect, and still harming lots of people.

[skepticscott]

17. That will be news to the pope

Your rather weak "as far as I know" hedging notwithstanding.

[BainsBane]

20. He spoke on this very issue in the interview

And distinguished between doctrinal teachings and moral teachings. He said doctrinal teachings like the Resurrection are the core of the faith, while the moral teachings regarding cultural issues are far less important, that the church has recent devoted far too much attention to them.

[skepticscott]

23. And when he spoke, he directly contradicted your statement

that there is no Catholic doctrine or teaching about gays.

Of course, it's not remotely credible that you or any intelligent, aware person was not aware that there was. It get shoved in our faces constantly.

[BainsBane]

26. You are missing the point

There are different levels of church teachings. I guess if all you care about is what you see on TV and not what actually goes on in the parishes, what people are actually TAUGHT in church, then you're right. But that tells you nothing about the experience of ordinary Catholics. The Church has tried for centuries to impose orthodoxy, through instruments like the Inquisition. It has failed miserably, even--if not especially--with the priesthood.

[skepticscott]

31. Yes, there are

and the most fundamental and unchangeable level of church doctrine says that homesexual acts are sinful.

So what point was I missing?

[skepticscott]

18. This article rather selectively

quote-mines that interview (unsurprisingly, considering the author).

People might also want to read this account, rather than just what they want to hear:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/pope-francis-affirms-churchs-view-on-homosexuality-abortion-but-says-it-must-accept-lgbt-with-respect-compassion-104941/

Pope Francis stated in his most in-depth interview thus far on the Roman Catholic Church, published Thursday, that he affirms the social views of the Church, including on homosexuality and abortion, but believes that other issues should also gain focus.

Francis told interviewer, the Rev. Antonio Spadaro, editor of La Civilta Cattolica, that he did not believe the Church should only focus and speak on hot-button issues. "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible," said the Pontiff in the recently published interview.

The Pontiff said that he affirmed the views of the Church regarding the social issues, identifying himself as "a son of the Church." "The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time," he said

Francis said in the interview that the catechism, or the Roman Catholic Church's official doctrine book, condemns homosexual acts, but he called on the Church to love gays and lesbians, who "must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity."

Which essentially reflects what I said.

[BainsBane]

21. So there is no difference as far as you're concerned?

Expelling gay priests and having a moral belief that they don't enforce are just the same? I can't help wondering if these statements anger you so because you are so heavily invested in hating the church and changes in emphasis make that a little bit harder. I love how people who have never set food in a Catholic church in their life think they know everything from TV.

[skepticscott]

25. No, fighting tooth and nail to keep gay couples

from being legally married far outweighs having a moral belief you don't enforce. Of course, the Catholic Church does both, so there are no points to be made there.

As far as being heavily invested, you seem to have your apologetics on speed dial. But no one needs TV to know what the Catholic Church is about...they'll tell you unashamedly.

[BainsBane]

29. It's not apology, it's my attempt at explanation

but you aren't interested in learning what Catholics really believe and practice. You've got it all figured out. The world fits on a 7x5 index card, no room for nuanced thought or analysis. I'm sure it makes things easy, but I would think it would be terribly dull. You've got the key to the universe figured out. No point talking to anyone. So I will abide your one-dimensional view of the world and spare you from suggesting anything to think about.

[trotsky]

30. You have spent considerable effort on this thread disputing absolutely nothing.

No one has said individual Catholics don't ignore the official church position.

All anyone has done is point out what the church's official stance is, and how nothing has changed in that regard.

And again, nothing you have said negates that. Please try not to engage in the petty personal insults just because you're frustrated with the truth.

[BainsBane]

35. If you believe that, you haven't paid attention

Yes, people have said it. Scott has said it repeatedly. He is entirely uninterested in the reality of people's lives and beliefs. That's his prerogative, as it's mine to refrain from further discussion. No one denies what the church hierarchy says about cultural issues. It's on TV all the time, clearly the chief source of knowledge for many. What I have said repeatedly is few people if anyone hears a thing about that in their local parishes. there is a long history of everyday religiosity that runs counter to church teachings. So no one is interested, fine. I can't force anyone to consider the lives and views of real human beings. That appears to be far less important that venting hostility. So this Pope is Genghis Kahn, he's no different from Benedict, Urban II, or any other Pope. It's pointless to talk about change because religion, and the Catholic Church in particular, is the sole source of evil on the planet. In fact, Francis's interview this week is identical to stringing homosexuals up on the rack in the 16th century. Happy Now?

I only stumbled in here because of the article on Francis's interview. Frankly, there is nothing I care about less on that planet that what someone believes or doesn't in terms of a god. I consider the matter entirely private. I do find ignorance of history irritating, but I'm used to that. So I won't be troubling you again. Please go back to the ordinarily civil discussions that lead to jury hides. I wouldn't want to stand in the way of such noble endeavors.

[trotsky]

39. We've all been paying attention. You, on the other hand, have not.

I will repeat for one last time, and bold it for your benefit:

No one is disputing that many individual Catholics choose to violate their church's official policy. We all agree with you that this happens!

However, there are also many, many Catholics (most notably the leadership and hierarchy) that not only embrace the church's official teachings but use them to influence public policy and oppress people in countries around the globe. While the priest of your local parish may have a "Don't ask, don't tell" thing going on to give him plausible deniability, the simple fact is that the church's official position has global influence and ruins people's lives.

Just because Francis is on the scene now and smiles while he continues to support the church's bigoted positions doesn't make me feel any better about those bigoted positions. So far, all he has shown is that he's a great PR guy. I will wait until I see real change before jumping in to congratulate anyone.

The new pope, despite all the friendly things he has said, has also stated that he supports existing policy: Women are 2nd class citizens. Homosexual sex is sin. Abortion is a murder. And so on.

I see you neglected my advice about refraining from making things personal. I can only assume this is a result of being frustrated with the reality of the RCC, which I'm glad you are. Realize that we are too - we are just taking out that frustration on the people who are responsible for that church reality (and those who defend it), and not the individuals who are merely pointing it out.

[skepticscott]

33. If you have a problem with my statement of church doctrine

take it up with the Pope..I'm not making anything up here, and I don't adhere to it, nor am I the one who has made it unchangeable and inflexible. Church doctrine is church doctrine, whether or not some Cafeteria Catholics choose to defy or ignore it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

38. I've gotten the same waffling Scott and Trotsky have from Christians.

I hear all sorts of dodges and waffling and logical fallacies on doctrine when I ask simple questions.

Quite typical on DU.

[trotsky]

42. And apparently if you comment on the new pope's PR campaign...

with anything less than fawning adulation and cheers of "hip-hip-hooray," you're the problem. Not the billion-member global organization with the resources and personnel to oppose key elements of the progressive agenda in just about every country on the planet.

Nope. You're the bad guy because you point that out. *sigh*

[Manifestor_of_Light]

43. Pope Frankie says nice things, but is anything going to actually change?

Kinda like apologizing for persecuting Galileo a few hundred years later, are they ever going to drag themselves out of the Dark Ages and deal with reality? They lose members because their rules are unrealistic. But then Christianity is unrealistic as well as illogical.

Trotsky, I feel your pain for standing up and telling the truth. I get told I'm the bad guy and I'm a shit-stirrer and "how dare you say that!".

[westerebus]

24. Good for the Pope.

[gopiscrap]

32. Good for the Pope

[Jim__]

34. Good for the pope!

[No Vested Interest]

37. Thank you Pope Francis

You lift us up!