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darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
Sat Feb 11, 2012, 11:25 PM Feb 2012

The best defense is to claim offense.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall once summed up Voltaire's views on discourse thusly:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

These words have been used time and again in public debate in order to succinctly express the view of the speaker that the First Amendment protects the free speech of all citizens, no matter how offensive or unpopular that speech might be.

The attitude behind this phrase is one of the larger reasons I became a liberal. Now I find myself asking "where has this attitude gone?"

You see, when someone alerts on a post, one of the reasons they can provide as an argument for hiding the post is that it is (to sum up "hurtful, rude, insensitive" from the alert box) offensive. Should a majority of the jury agree that the post is offensive, the post is hidden, and consequences are handed down to the offending poster.

The problem I have with this is that unpopular/minority opinions are always offensive to someone, and they stand a good chance of being offensive to a majority of jury members. So for those members of the majority who feel uncomfortable when greeted with minority views, the best defense is to claim offense.

And now to confirm the suspicions of some readers, and to make a point as to why I posted this here, let me say this: There is no discussion topic more likely to fall victim to this phenomenon on a liberal board than that of religion. For my entire life, spanning from my fundamentalist Christian years to the atheism of now, my very existence has been offensive to some. Liberal Christians thought I was ruining their religion when I was younger, and they think I'm trying to undermine and eliminate it now.

The jury system isn't going anywhere, and we all know it. That means that on DU3, it will always be possible for the majority to defend themselves against minority views by claiming offense. (It also means that things which offend minorities stand a much higher chance of standing, but that's beside my larger point.) This is unfortunate, to say the least, but we as a group can do better.

Those who venture into the Religion forum must know that the very discussion of such a topic will be volatile. We all need to keep Ms. Hall's words in mind, and maybe some of us should grow some skin.

Or, we could just admit that when it comes to our pet topics we are just as reactionary and in favor of censorship as the people on the right whom we deride.

53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The best defense is to claim offense. (Original Post) darkstar3 Feb 2012 OP
This is one of the best posts I've read in a long time EvolveOrConvolve Feb 2012 #1
"relegated to their own water fountains" darkstar3 Feb 2012 #2
Thanks for an excellent post. mr blur Feb 2012 #3
I like the tama Feb 2012 #4
Another technique is to hide obnoxious behavior under the mantle of minority oppression. rug Feb 2012 #5
Or to try to attach the tag "obnoxious behavior" skepticscott Feb 2012 #6
It's self-evident. rug Feb 2012 #7
There is much less tama Feb 2012 #8
Sorry, but baloney skepticscott Feb 2012 #9
More of the same tama Feb 2012 #14
Well stated tama, and absolutely true. nt humblebum Feb 2012 #11
. cleanhippie Feb 2012 #13
And some are only able to respond with obvious sarcasm, off the wall comedy, or humblebum Feb 2012 #18
. cleanhippie Feb 2012 #25
Well, you're the one fond of the alert button, mr blur Feb 2012 #47
Very seldom do I use the alert button and as far as an "honest" response humblebum Feb 2012 #49
Your post is a good illustration of the OP's point EvolveOrConvolve Feb 2012 #12
Granted tama Feb 2012 #15
"Why is that?" Because one side has a history of consistent abusive tactics and language Leontius Feb 2012 #16
It WASN'T abusive EvolveOrConvolve Feb 2012 #17
Questioning someone's beliefs tama Feb 2012 #19
Question my beliefs, no problem there anytime you want to go ahead. Leontius Feb 2012 #20
You are talking out of both sides of your face. cleanhippie Feb 2012 #27
A question tama Feb 2012 #44
ONE side? You obviously can't see the log in your own eye, darkstar3 Feb 2012 #21
No I admit I have violated my own principle before and have seen believers attacks Leontius Feb 2012 #26
When you say "anti religious bigots" darkstar3 Feb 2012 #28
I realize when I say anti-religious bigots that's exactly what I mean, bigots, so play your game Leontius Feb 2012 #30
Oh, if only that were true. darkstar3 Feb 2012 #32
Go right ahead and if I think you're right I'll say so and they can delete my post Leontius Feb 2012 #36
Thank you. You've provided a perfect example of my point. darkstar3 Feb 2012 #22
Only if you confuse the obnoxious with the offensive. rug Feb 2012 #48
Either way, you're recategorizing that which you dislike as socially out of bounds, darkstar3 Feb 2012 #50
Uh, no. Obnoxious assholes are an objectively observable phenemenon. rug Feb 2012 #51
Irony? darkstar3 Feb 2012 #52
Observation. rug Feb 2012 #53
Spot on! cleanhippie Feb 2012 #10
Interesting darkstar3 Feb 2012 #23
I would have to say that alerting on your OP is an abuse of the jury system Leontius Feb 2012 #24
Agreed tama Feb 2012 #29
False. darkstar3 Feb 2012 #31
No doubt tama Feb 2012 #41
Bet you never saw post #31 coming did you? Leontius Feb 2012 #33
Based on your responses here, there are a lot of things you never saw. darkstar3 Feb 2012 #34
Are you questioning tama Feb 2012 #43
Not really, I think you knew it was coming. I'm just surprised it took 12 minutes Leontius Feb 2012 #45
"Poster insults atheists" - with the average DU jury that would be a non-starter. nt mr blur Feb 2012 #46
Sorry to get off topic, but I am really interested in your personal journey from ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #35
Another time, perhaps. darkstar3 Feb 2012 #37
Very fair. ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #38
I'm not sure that atheists are in the minority on this site. cbayer Feb 2012 #39
I think a distinction needs to be made between this group and DU at large. laconicsax Feb 2012 #40
I know as a mod we were pretty agressive about moving threads to Religion, cbayer Feb 2012 #42

EvolveOrConvolve

(6,452 posts)
1. This is one of the best posts I've read in a long time
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 12:20 AM
Feb 2012

The jury system has become a tool used by some in the majority as an attempt to stifle minority opinion, whether that be LGBT issues, women's rights, or atheism. Some of it is, plain and simple, ignorance. With others, it's more malicious. Indeed, some posters seem almost gleeful when they're able to shut down the discussion of minority views.

It's been made pretty clear that majority suppression of minority opinions is going to be tolerated on DU3 to a certain extent, so education is the only way to get other DUers to understand how it hurts the community. I hate to say that I'm not optimistic that positive change is anywhere close, but I could be wrong. It just seems that some groups have been relegated to their own water fountains, so to speak, and that's just the way it's going to be.

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
2. "relegated to their own water fountains"
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 03:22 AM
Feb 2012

Well said.

I'm glad you enjoyed the post. I actually believed it would be busier. I find the silence...interesting.

 

mr blur

(7,753 posts)
3. Thanks for an excellent post.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 07:24 AM
Feb 2012

As an atheist I'm a firm believer in the "No-one has the right not to be offended" POV. No room for that in the new DU.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
4. I like the
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 07:45 AM
Feb 2012

jury system, interesting social experiment of self-moderating as a community.

I'm not aware of it producing censorship of opinions and points of view, but concentrating on matters of tone.

Only censorship I've seen has been in Science group, host shutting down discussion of Sheldrake's science book etc.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
5. Another technique is to hide obnoxious behavior under the mantle of minority oppression.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 08:13 AM
Feb 2012

And, when called on it, cry privilege.

It's dishonest and cowardly behavior.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
6. Or to try to attach the tag "obnoxious behavior"
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 11:34 AM
Feb 2012

to any opinions or arguments that you don't like, but have no logical, fact-based response to. Or to attribute claims of "privilege" when they have not, in fact, been asserted.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
7. It's self-evident.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 11:42 AM
Feb 2012

"skepticscott
39. And right on cue, your other typical and oft-repeated
BS...saying that you've already answered a question a long time ago, when you never actually have, and hoping people that don't know any better will believe you. if you could disprove your detractors' statements by the simple expedient of linking to where you had done what you said (a process that would take all of 60 seconds), you would. The fact that you don't should be all that anyone not familiar with your blathering needs to know."

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
8. There is much less
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 12:52 PM
Feb 2012

obnoxious behavior on DU3 than there was on DU2. On DU2 when the "tone argument" was raised, a usual response was: "if you can't take the heat, go away". And it is clear who are the posters that present most of the justifications and rationalizations to defend obnoxious behavior. The same ones who are complaining about DU3 jury system that is less tolerant of obnoxious behavior than the old DU system was. And besides, also the "hidden" comments can be seen with a click of the mouse.

A group of posters representing a group thinking that claims that their materialist etc. views are the only logical and fact based views have constantly used bullying tactics of obnoxious behavior to shut up other views that don't enjoy that particular discussion style, are now claiming victimhood of being an oppressed minority for being less able to apply bully tactics to shovel their belief system down the throats of others. Pitiful.


PS: I have never alerted a post.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
9. Sorry, but baloney
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 01:32 PM
Feb 2012

This "group" that you attempt to characterize so badly calls it like it is when it sees long-debunked nonsense and fallacious arguments used to support a point. That's one of the things that's supposed to happen on a discussion board, wouldn't you agree? When we've seen the same bogus arguments and tactics a hundred times over, the right to patience and pleasantry has been stretched past ots limit. And requests are made constantly for actual evidence to back up claims, and for direct answers to simple questions that bear directly on the issue being debated. And almost as regularly, these are ducked, dodged and avoided, or we're told straight out, "I refuse to discuss that with you". What do such tactics deserve?

NO ONE here is ever "shut up" by the kinds of "bullying tactics" you claim are used. NO ONE is preventing from posting what they choose to, anywhere or at any time. And please, why don't you lay out the last 5 or 10 posts that have been hidden here, and justify your claim that they constitute "bully tactics to shovel their belief system down the throats of others". You won't, because you you can't, though I suspect you'll spend a few rambling paragraphs trying to deflect from your inability to support your own claim.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
14. More of the same
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 02:35 PM
Feb 2012

justifications and rationalizations. And no, I don't agree that the behavior we are discussing is supposed to happen on a discussion board, I reserve my right to disagree with such universalist claims of what is supposed to happen and what not on discussion boards. I'm just describing what I see as happening from this point of view.

IF some one really wants to discuss phenomena and experiences that fall out of the materialist presuppositions and explanatory scope, I can only say that they are often (by their very very sensitive issues and not readily shared when there is expectation of getting rude and insulting responses. Also for me to get into that discussion, I need actual proof that I'm really talking at least with an open minded skeptic instead of pseudoskeptical believer, who just gets rude and personal when his belief system is challenged.

I don't expect you to understand or respect my position and attitude in these discussions, but I explain it anyway. You never know.

 

humblebum

(5,881 posts)
18. And some are only able to respond with obvious sarcasm, off the wall comedy, or
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 03:23 PM
Feb 2012

pushing the alert button and feigning foul, when an honest response is hard to come by.

 

mr blur

(7,753 posts)
47. Well, you're the one fond of the alert button,
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 03:38 PM
Feb 2012

and an "honest response" is what you always avoid, although we keep waiting. And waiting...

 

humblebum

(5,881 posts)
49. Very seldom do I use the alert button and as far as an "honest" response
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 07:15 PM
Feb 2012

goes, you might want put forth some evidence. Even better, an honest, constructive statement.

EvolveOrConvolve

(6,452 posts)
12. Your post is a good illustration of the OP's point
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 02:22 PM
Feb 2012

The fact that you don't understand how is disturbing. Take a look at all the posts that have been hidden in the Religion group. See a pattern? There are obnoxious posts from both sides, but one side has a disproportionate number of posts hidden. Why is that? (Don't answer that question. It was rhetorical, and you don't have enough self-awareness to answer it anyway.)

It's people like you who have made DU a less, rather than more, welcoming place. Whether it's women's issues, LGBT issues, etc., the majority has spoken. "Fuck off to the back of the bus where you belong." How does it feel to be part of the oppressive majority? Does it feel good to treat other people like shit?

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
15. Granted
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 02:37 PM
Feb 2012

I haven't been following very closely what have been hidden and what not, and I have also myself lost my cool on occations.

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
16. "Why is that?" Because one side has a history of consistent abusive tactics and language
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 02:54 PM
Feb 2012

that was previously allowed to stand and now that is no longer the case, seems it kinda sucks for them to be called on it to hear them now with the constant crying and complaining. A question for you , why does it feel so bad not to be able to treat other people like shit like in the 'good ole days'?

EvolveOrConvolve

(6,452 posts)
17. It WASN'T abusive
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 03:08 PM
Feb 2012

Questioning someone's beliefs is NOT abusive. (FYI: if you don't understand how minority rights are viewed by progressives, perhaps you're in the wrong place.) We had a legitimate right to our opinion, no matter how scary it is to you and other fragile believers whose belief is so weak that the very presence of atheists makes you feel uneasy.

On DU3, it's becoming painfully clear that you, and others like you in the majority, want us to just shut the fuck up and go away. If that's the case, then mission accomplished, soldier. I made my journey to the left after similar treatment by the right, and now I'm not sure where to go. It's obvious that we're not welcome here.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
19. Questioning someone's beliefs
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 03:36 PM
Feb 2012

is not abusive. Also I constantly question beliefs, world views and the presuppositions they are built upon. That is important part of also the scientific methodology and rational inquiry, questioning presuppositions.

As for the persecution of materialist world views you claim to perceive, I don't see that. But I've seen a lot of bully tactics in support of that world view trying to eradicate some other world views. So maybe you are just projecting?

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
20. Question my beliefs, no problem there anytime you want to go ahead.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 03:41 PM
Feb 2012

State your opinion anytime you want to, again no problem. Insult or ridicle or just plain bigotry yeah now we've got a problem and if that's all you have as argument maye you don't belong on a liberal website. Please understand I am not accusing you personally of being insulting or bigoted but others have got that as a history here. We may or may not agree on issues but if done in a civil and respectful manner for each other I will always support the right to hold your opinion without pressure or prejudice for anyone but I will not turn away from confronting what I find offensive and abusive and when I slip up and do the same I am not offended if someone does the same when I'm wrong.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
27. You are talking out of both sides of your face.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 05:07 PM
Feb 2012

But its not an uncommon display of hypocrisy, saying you want your beliefs questioned, and when they are, calling the questions insulting and bigoted.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
44. A question
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 08:14 PM
Feb 2012

I wonder, have you ever sincerely questioned someones beliefs on this forum, just to listen and learn, instead of looking for opportunity to make strawmen caricatures out of them, to ridicule and insult and try to shovel down your own beliefs to replace them?

Not making any claims here, just questioning.


darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
21. ONE side? You obviously can't see the log in your own eye,
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 04:29 PM
Feb 2012

much less the tree sticking from that of one of your friends.

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
26. No I admit I have violated my own principle before and have seen believers attacks
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 05:06 PM
Feb 2012

on posters before that were uncalled for but I do find that a few anti religious bigots used to get a free pass quite often and it seems they don't anymore. Like I said when I screwup call me on it no problem with that .

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
30. I realize when I say anti-religious bigots that's exactly what I mean, bigots, so play your game
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 05:31 PM
Feb 2012

if that's where you want this to go. Have fun but find a wall, I'm done with you.

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
32. Oh, if only that were true.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 05:38 PM
Feb 2012

And BTW, what exactly happened to the rule that you can't call people bigots on DU? I guess that went out the window with so much else...I wonder if that means that I'm allowed, as a minority member, to call a couple of serial insulters here "religious bigots"?

What's good for the goose is not good for the gander on DU3, but I suppose it's worth a shot...

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
36. Go right ahead and if I think you're right I'll say so and they can delete my post
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 05:45 PM
Feb 2012

of support too if they want. Will I get the same support from you, I strongly doubt it.

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
50. Either way, you're recategorizing that which you dislike as socially out of bounds,
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 08:49 PM
Feb 2012

if not entirely out of bounds on the board. Split hairs if you like, it's the same asinine response.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
51. Uh, no. Obnoxious assholes are an objectively observable phenemenon.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 12:00 PM
Feb 2012

Regardless of what they're talking about.

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
23. Interesting
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 04:38 PM
Feb 2012

Someone who shall remain nameless sent me this in my PM, to notify me that this OP was alerted on. I'd like to share that here, because it is a perfect example of the problem I'm talking about in the OP. The bolding below is mine, and in this case I'd like to thank the jurors for knowing a bullshit alert when they see one.

At Sat Feb 11, 2012, 09:50 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

The best defense is to claim offense.

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

poster insults religious people.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Feb 11, 2012, 09:54 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I don't understand why this was alerted.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Insults religious people? Are you serious? I thought this was going to be a meta thread complaint. How does this possibly insult religious people? I will be sorely disappointed if this is hidden.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Christians are not immune to criticism. Criticism is not the same as an insult. Their irrationality does not get a pass. This poster is criticising, not insulting.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.


"poster insults religious people"...fuckin' wow.
 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
24. I would have to say that alerting on your OP is an abuse of the jury system
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 04:55 PM
Feb 2012

if this was an insult to anyone religious I can't see it. I think 6-0 in this case was the only way to go.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
29. Agreed
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 05:22 PM
Feb 2012

But goes to show that the jury system is working and this abuse of the system was called what it was.

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
31. False.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 05:34 PM
Feb 2012

There have been many instances where the jury system has failed spectacularly in cases just like this one, where the alert was an abuse but the majority agreed with the alerter.

In light of a mound of evidence that shows the jury system is a massive failure, you can't take one example of a proper decision and proclaim that the system works. That's not even confirmation bias, it's flatly ignoring the evidence.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
41. No doubt
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 07:46 PM
Feb 2012

there are many cases where we would disagree with the jury decision, and of course it's not fool proof - nothing is. But it's a new more communal system and so far much better than moderators, who are anything but immune to the Stanford Prison Experiment -effect.

I thought peer review was something that you were much in favor for, and this is a system of your posts getting judged by peers, fellow posters. In ancient Athens which also had a judicial system based on peer review and drawing lot, there was a system of that the accuser faced similar punishment that he was demanding, if the accused was found not guilty, in order to avoid abuse of the system. In some other forums I've suggested that if someone demands that some other poster be banned, there is a judgment by peers and if they don't ban the accused, the accuser gets banned. I don't know how something like that could be created to sanction unnecessary alerts and attempts to abuse the jury system, maybe there are good ideas but discussion about them should continue in the meta.

I don't know what is the mount of evidence you are referring to, a quick lurk in your safe haven or mutual support group hinted that cleanhippie, perhaps together with some others - haven't really looked into it - has continued the battle of words with militant hard-line feminism (or a feminist), and in my experience that is generally unwise.


 

tama

(9,137 posts)
43. Are you questioning
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 07:51 PM
Feb 2012

my ability to see into the future?!

While not in agreement with the content, I saw nothing wrong in post #31, on the contrary it gave opportunity to flabber my mouth more in defense of peer review system.

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
45. Not really, I think you knew it was coming. I'm just surprised it took 12 minutes
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 09:53 PM
Feb 2012

before it happened though. I agree with you that the system works, maybe not all the time but in most cases it works, and like any system where people are involved there will be errors and people just pissed that what used to be allowed is not anymore. I Hope this will lead to a more civil discusion over time. Keep "flabbering" maybe someone will listen and get the point.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
35. Sorry to get off topic, but I am really interested in your personal journey from
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 05:44 PM
Feb 2012

fundamentalist Christian to atheist. What made you question your faith? Did the change happen over many years? How did your family and friends handle your change? How did your change affect your everyday life? Did your religious beliefs give you great comfort? Do you feel that being on "both sides" gives you insight over someone who has always believed or never believed?

Or, we could just admit that when it comes to our pet topics we are just as reactionary and in favor of censorship as the people on the right whom we deride.


I have voted "LEAVE IT" on some posts I strongly disagreed with. I only vote "HIDE IT" on personal attacks, and bigotry against gender, race, sexuality, region, and age. I know some want posts hidden that are against group affiliations, such as the RCC, but then we couldn't put down the Republican Party, Libertarians, etc.

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
37. Another time, perhaps.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 05:53 PM
Feb 2012

It's a story that deserves some time and proper writing. I'd also like it to be in a different thread.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
38. Very fair.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 06:01 PM
Feb 2012

I hope you consider writing it because I think it would be fascinating.

If you enjoy writing, you may consider writing a book about it.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
39. I'm not sure that atheists are in the minority on this site.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 06:12 PM
Feb 2012

Has a poll ever been done (not that DU polls actually tell you what you looking for)?

I am assuming this just based on seeing the posts of self-identified theists and atheists and noting that the A/A group is one of the two most frequented groups in the Religion category (excluding this general one).

I might be wrong, but I think you assumption about being in the minority might be incorrect.

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
40. I think a distinction needs to be made between this group and DU at large.
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 07:36 PM
Feb 2012

Atheists probably aren't the minority of regulars in this group (like in R/T), but I doubt that we're the majority in DU at large. From what I remember of DU2, a thread about religion or atheism would be started in GD or LBN, there'd be a significant anti-atheist pile-on, the mods would move the thread to R/T, and the tone would change from anti-atheist to pro-atheist.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
42. I know as a mod we were pretty agressive about moving threads to Religion,
Sun Feb 12, 2012, 07:48 PM
Feb 2012

as they always seemed to devolve into the same mess.

Look, I don't dismiss or discount the prejudice that is shown towards atheists IRL. Based both on anecdotal reports and well done surveys, I have no doubt of it's existence and the impact it has on those who do not hold religious beliefs. I believe that atheists should be treated the same as religious groups - with respect and sensitivity - and that more education needs to be done so that the general populace becomes less hostile and afraid.

That does not mean to say that behavior that violates the TOS or CS of this site should be tolerated. Perhaps the juries are just doing their jobs and hiding posts based on that. I don't see any evidence that there is anti-atheist bias in their decisions, although I do see that many jurors object to the behavior of certain individual members.

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