God, if there is a god, has been humbled. If the stories hold any relevance, we are the key.

[pinto]

And God's loss is our entrance on the stage. That's the tale twice told. It's up to us, one way or another.

[Wilms]

1. Within You Without You- The Beatles

We were talking
About the space between us all
And the people who hide themselves
Behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth
Then it's far too late
When they pass away

We were talking
About the love we all could share
When we find it
To try our best to hold it there
With our love, with our love
We could save the world
If they only knew

Try to realize it's all within yourself
No one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small
And life flows on within you and without you

We were talking
About the love that's gone so cold
And the people who gain the world
And lose their soul
They don't know, they can't see
Are you one of them

When you've seen beyond yourself
Then you may find
Peace of mind is waiting there
And the time will come
When you see we're all one
And life flows on within you and without you

- George Harrison

[pinto]

2. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017133244

[kwassa]

3. I know Jesus is the answer, but what was the question?

[longship]

4. God, if there are gods, have been exploited.

For political power. As excuses for repression. As justification for war against the other gods. To excuse all sorts of repression.

If religion is a positive force in the world, as nearly all believers claim, maybe they ought to clean up their own house before they malign non-believers.

The key is likely not a belief in gods (or not) but what one does with those beliefs. That goes for both believers and non-believers.

It is the actions of some believers which concerns me, actions which do not seem to be common in non-believers.

[skepticscott]

5. They can only be written off as excuses

and not actual motivators if you contend that people's religious beliefs and practices aren't deeply held and sincere.

[longship]

6. Ah!! Therein lies the problem.

They don't call them believers for nothing. Possibly my word choice was not the best. Maybe not excuses, but justifications.

I can't know what's really in a person's mind. But I would think that many of most egregious religious charlatans have no more belief than I do. Benny Hinn knows what he's doing. I suspect likewise many of the mega-church pastors. To them, it's just a scam, and a tax free one, too.

[skepticscott]

7. The argument is often made here

when it is pointed out how many bad things are motivated by religion and religious beliefs (war, violence, etc) that people just use religion as an excuse and that if there were no religion, people would find another excuse to justify these things. And yet the equivalent contention that religion is just an excuse to do good and charitable things, and that if there were no religion, people would just find other reasons to do the same good works, is rejected out of hand.