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rug

(82,333 posts)
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 09:08 AM Jul 2013

Losing My Religion: The illusion of choice in religious leave-taking

July 15, 2013
By John Halstead

Recently, Carol Christ and Judith Plaskow engaged in an online conversation at the Feminism and Religion blog over the question of whether or not to remain in the patriarchal religion of one’s birth, with Christ taking the position of the “leave-taker” and Plaskow taking the position of the “reformer-from-within”.

Christ writes that she decided to leave Christianity when she realized that she did not embrace the “core doctrines” of Christianity or its “core symbols” (i.e., God as Lord and King). She writes that, even if she had been able to revision the masculinist language, “the continued repetition of these symbols by others was influencing their individual actions and the actions of the culture they were legitimating through them—and these actions were hurting others”.

Plaskow responds that, while she finds the masculinist language problematic, when she worships with her community, “I do not experience God as king or warrior, and my experience weighs as heavily for me as what you call the core symbols of the tradition.” Christ questions whether Plaskow is concerned about how the image of God as dominating male Other will affect her granddaughter, to which Plaskow responds with this beautiful passage:

“Thinking about my granddaughter puts me in touch with a whole dense network of symbols, other than those most troubling to you, that is central to my experience of Judaism and that I hope will be part of hers. Already at fourteen months, when Hannah (my granddaughter) saw the table set for the Sabbath, she put a kippah (skullcap) on her head and pretended she was singing. True, her father recites the blessing over wine using male God-language, but is that more important than sitting with her family around the table for a relaxed meal, dipping her finger in the wine, or feeling the texture of hallah in her mouth? At her first Passover Seder, she got to see a table laden with symbols, to taste the crumbly matzah and dip parsley in saltwater, combining a taste of spring with the tears of slavery. In a couple of years, she will be able to spill ten drops from the second cup of wine when we name the plagues as an expression of sorrow for the drowning of the Egyptians. In the fall, she will taste apples dipped in honey for a sweet year, hear the blasts of the shofar, and a couple of weeks later sit in our sukkah, decorated with pine needles and laden with fruit and gourds. Certainly, none of these symbols individually is as central as the male God, but together they make a web of sensuous, embodied connections to what it means to be a Jew. She will have at least one grandmother who will talk to her about how God is in all these things and can be thought of as a girl like her and not just as male. She will grow up in a family in which asking critical questions is part of what it means to be Jewish and will be taught to think about the stories and images she is being bequeathed. Do I wish that more Jews used Marcia Falk’s blessings instead of the traditional ones? Yes. Do I see her exposure to male language as something to be discussed with her and questioned? Yes. Would I prefer that she be deprived of all these experiences because of the centrality of male language? Definitely not.“


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/allergicpagan/2013/07/15/losing-my-religion-the-illusion-of-choice-in-religious-leave-taking/
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djean111

(14,255 posts)
1. For me, I just do not believe any sort of "god" exists.
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 09:32 AM
Jul 2013

Thus, the language and symbolism mean nothing no matter how they are expressed. At most, interesting and charming traditions.

Jim__

(14,083 posts)
4. I thought the story of the Omelas more interesting than the article itself.
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 10:17 AM
Jul 2013

Halstead says that The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas gave him the courage to walk away from the Mormon Church. But, I think that story speaks more to the human condition than any particular aspect of it, like religion.

I have to give that story some thought.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
5. I have had several discussions with a member here about this.
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 11:40 AM
Jul 2013

I have come to believe that for many people, being a believer or non-believer is not a matter of choice but is part of their identity, who they are.

While she focuses on those who go from being religious to being non-religious, I think the same could be said for those that go the other way.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
6. Religion is a belief system, not a culture...
Wed Jul 17, 2013, 11:07 AM
Jul 2013

Cultures form around belief systems, but religion is still just a belief system. Losing the beliefs one was indoctrinated into may mean losing access to certain parts of ones culture they were raised in, things that are familiar or comforting on their own, and of which the belief system underlying it is irrelevant, and this is a terrible reason for anyone to believe anything. It's a form of social pressure.

In other words, all the article is saying is that for some, giving up those comforting cultural traditions is less important than their ACTUAL beliefs. For others, engaging in cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty is worth it to keep the cultural aspects they like.

Many religious people want to keep identifying with cultural aspects of religion while not really believing a lot of it, or any of it, and certainly not wanting to be associated with their belief system's own plainly stated, nasty dogma.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. And there you are!!
Wed Jul 17, 2013, 11:24 AM
Jul 2013

I'll be over here when you *choose* to become a believer.

And I'll be pondering the deep concepts of indoctrination, intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance.

Sorry, but what is dogma is intractable religious intolerance, and you, my friend, are a prize winner in that area.

See you around the campfire.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
8. I would ask how I'm engaging in "intractable religious intolerance"...
Wed Jul 17, 2013, 02:41 PM
Jul 2013

but that's just another one of your ad homs, and irrelevant to the thread anyway. I would ask you to address my points about how belief is indeed a choice, whether a person identifies with the belief system culturally or not, but you never answer substantive points.

If you disagree with my opinion, actually address my opinion, rather than me. If you have an argument at all. Which I suspect you don't.

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