Imagine No Religion

[cbayer]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2013/07/imagine-no-religion.html

From The Far Left Side. HT Hemant Mehta.




Brief analysis at the link

[pscot]

1. Self-explanatory

No further analysis required.

[cbayer]

2. Agree, which is why I didn't bother copying it.

So, what do you think of the 'toon?

[pscot]

3. Choosing up sides is what we do

It's hard wired; the result of 2 million years of evolution.

[cbayer]

4. Tribalism. I agree.

And it provided many evolutionary advantages.

But does it still, I wonder.

[pscot]

5. Maybe in the next age

When we're back to throwing rocks at one another.

[gcomeau]

17. The issue however...

...is that some things you "choose up sides" on are more open to rational re-evaluation than others.

Religion is custom designed to make it as immune as possible to any attempt to do so, which is why religious conflicts are among the most virulent and intractable of them all. When the basis for your grievance against the other side is "my invisible inscrutable all powerful superbeing says you suck, and no you can't ask him why because he's invisible and inscrutable and doesn't like to talk to people or answer questions" there aren't a whole hell of a lot of places you can go from there, now are there?

[cleanhippie]

6. Having no religion wouldn't solve all the worlds problems, but it would solve the religious one.

[Promethean]

7. And that is the x-factor

Religion provides a strong justification for actions that society would otherwise not tolerate. While the absence of religion wouldn't prevent all such actions it isn't much of a stretch to theorize that many would not happen without the religious cover. Of course I am already over 30 words longer than most people will pay attention, at least in the US.

[cbayer]

10. What actions would society not tolerate if there weren't the cover of religion?

[Promethean]

13. Depends on the society.

In some societies public beatings for not making a certain religious observance at the correct time and place are common. Homosexuals suffer the death penalty in too many African countries. Even in first world countries it is common to teach children that they will suffer eternal torture if they don't follow certain religious practices. Oh and that is just Christianity's modern crimes. Other religions do worse. Like the Sharia (Islam) Law that openly states it is a woman's fault of she gets raped.

Remove the cover of religion and all of the above actions are far harder to justify and that is just a small snippet.

[cbayer]

15. I think religion is often used as cover and appreciate your examples.

I would bet, however, that other excuses for these kinds of brutalities would be found if religion were removed.

Otherwise how would one account for brutal actions in countries that are relatively irreligious?

[WovenGems]

28. Monsters

You put monsters into cages. In a country with no religion there is no weird justification. No0 land wasted on burials. The population agrees that ashes take up less space. Customs would come from something other than old books.

[cbayer]

29. What monsters? What country would that be?

Land wasted on burial? I think that may have to do with more than religion.

[gcomeau]

18. You're joking right?

How about the myriad forms of child abuse through withholding of medical treatment that are excused instantly if anyone declares it's because their religion tells them to?

How about any of the other myriad religious exemptions carved out of the nations laws?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/business/08religious.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

"t any moment, state inspectors can step uninvited into one of the three child care centers that Ethel White runs in Auburn, Ala., to make sure they meet state requirements intended to ensure that the children are safe. There must be continuing training for the staff. Her nurseries must have two sinks, one exclusively for food preparation. All cabinets must have safety locks. Medications for the children must be kept under lock and key, and refrigerated.

The Rev. Ray Fuson of the Harvest Temple Church of God in Montgomery, Ala., does not have to worry about unannounced state inspections at the day care center his church runs. Alabama exempts church day care programs from state licensing requirements, which were tightened after almost a dozen children died in licensed and unlicensed day care centers in the state in two years.

...

The differences do not end there. As an employer, Ms. White must comply with the civil rights laws; if employees feel mistreated, they can take the center to court. Religious organizations, including Pastor Fuson’s, are protected by the courts from almost all lawsuits filed by their ministers or other religious staff members, no matter how unfairly those employees think they have been treated.

etc...

[cbayer]

19. Yep and I'll be here all week.

Ba da boom!

[dimbear]

8. For reasons that have nothing to do with religion, let's have too many children, more than

the planet can stand.


Honestly--I just don't see it.

[cbayer]

9. That's going to happen wherever women have little control over their own

reproductive lives.

Little to say about when and who they have sex with. No access to contraception. No access to abortions. High infant mortality.

[dimbear]

11. Religion isn't the only culprit. It is merely the main culprit.

To understand the gravity of the situation, once again imagine a world globe. Now in your mind's eye place the gravely overpopulated nations and place the very religious nations, note the overlap.

Then place the secular nations. See any of them groaning under the weight of excess humanity?

I know I sound like a broken record, bringing up the globe time after time, I wouldn't have to do that if we had several planets to choose from. We don't.

[cbayer]

16. I would say it's a factor but I think "main culprit" is going too far.

But that might just be hair splitting at this point.

You have made this argument before and I have disagreed with you. As we have previously discussed, there is a clear correlation between levels of poverty and levels of religiosity. There is data to back this up and I would postulate that that is why the map you propose looks like it does.

OTOH, I have not seen any data that would back up you hypothesis that there is a causative correlation between religiosity and birth rate. Do you have any?

Based on what I have seen, the bottom line issue is not in addressing the religiosity, but in addressing the poverty and women's lack of control over their own reproductive lives.

[dimbear]

23. All these arguments are repetitive, religion is a garden that has been picked over many times.

There's no having new thoughts, it's just a question of picking out old ones that look good.

For anyone who is seriously interested in the question of how religion threatens demographic stability, an excellent example is Israel's Haredi. It seems incredible that in this day and age in a sophisticated country there is a minority which averages 7-8 children and doubles in size every 12 years (some sources say 20.) What was once a small chunk is now 10% of Israel's Jewish population!!

They're in the news, rioting to avoid the draft.

[cbayer]

24. That could be just straightforward evolutionary strategy more than religion.

If you are invested in establishing and growing your tribe, whether it be religious or otherwise, then there is going to be a strong incentive to reproduce as much as possible.

How do you account for the problem being so great in non-religious China that they enacted laws to slow it down?

[dimbear]

25. Hmm. You see the same irresponsible reproduction in, say, Cubs fans?

We seem to have very different theories on the history of religion in China. To me, China was a religious country before the coming of the Communists. One can cavil, say Confucianism is a philosophy, but it has so much in common with religion that I classify it as such. (The North Koreans disguise their religion with much the same device.) We ought not forget that Christianity also once had a fair hold in China. Buddhism , Islam ...... complex history.

[cbayer]

26. Cubs fans? Maybe. Possibly Red Sox fans as well.

In your quest to blame all the earth's ills on religion, I think you are really over-reaching on this one.

You have attempted to simply correlate something that is, in fact, very complex and without real data to back it up.

Take a look at the TED talk by Hans Rosling. He's got the data.

http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_religions_and_babies.html

[dimbear]

27. I get the drift from the comments. He's saying that even religious societies

gradually begin to limit their numbers as the women become more empowered and more educated.

Fine.

Remember the Haredi. They are less educated as an important part of their religious beliefs. They keep women pregnant at all times as an important part of their religious beliefs. They avoid military service and, it would seem, working ditto. Their belief is the key factor in the changing demographics in the Jewish portion of Israel.

Now 10% of the Jewish population. A very important voting bloc in the Knesset. (Actually two, of course being religious they have schisms How soon 20%?

[okasha]

21. Do you regard the United States as a "secular country?"

If you do, have you noticed that we're overpopulated and consume resources far beyond the "gravely overpopulated" "religious nations?"

Reflect on the fact that we're conducting the first wave of resource wars right now, and that the change from Republican to Democratic occupation of the White House has made no difference in that fact whatsoever.

[dimbear]

22. That's an easy one. No.

The United States is a religious country. At least so far.

[LostOne4Ever]

12. I like this cartoon. Thank you for posting it (nt).

[hrmjustin]

14. Love the cartoon!

[trotsky]

20. The unique aspect of religion, however...

is its proven resistance to compromise. If you are convinced your god wants something, anything less than that is a proverbial deal with the devil, and UNACCEPTABLE. We see it in the political arena all the time. So this cartoon fails to appreciate the complexity of the topic.