Doesn't religion cause most of the conflict in the world?

[cbayer]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/02/religion-wars-conflict

In this extract from the book For God's Sake, one question is asked to four Australian writers with very different beliefs


A crusader is shot by a Muslim warrior during the Crusades in c1250. Photograph: Hulton Archive/Getty


Rachel Woodlock (Islam)

Religion is powerfully motivating and belligerent humans fight over it. Heck, religion has caused conflict even in my diverse and tolerant family. Taking our daughter to visit her Irish-Catholic relatives, I asked my husband to make sure they didn't give her any pork. Like Jews, Muslims steer clear of anything with an oink. My gentle, peaceable mate, wanting to avoid one of those conversations, said: "Mam, Yazzy doesn't like pork so don't give her any." A few days later, my beaming mother-in-law proudly announced: "She does like pork. I gave her some sausages and she ate them right up!" It took a few days for my blood pressure to return to normal.

-snip-

Antony Loewenstein (Judaism)


Alain de Botton, philosopher and author of Religion for Atheists, is worried about fundamentalism. "To say something along the lines of 'I'm an atheist: I think religions are not all bad' has become a dramatically peculiar thing to say," he told British journalist Bryan Appleyard in 2012. "If you do say it on the internet you will get savage messages calling you a fascist, an idiot or a fool. This is a very odd moment in our culture."

-snip-

Jane Caro (Atheism)

As 14 year-old Malala Yousafzai sat on a bus in the grounds of her school in Pakistan's Swat Valley, a gunman shot her in the head. After proudly claiming responsibility, the Taliban told the world that the teenage education activist's work represented "a new chapter of obscenity, and we have to finish this chapter". The "obscenity" was the education of girls.
The Taliban felt no shame. They know that what they have done is right because their god tells them so. Gods have been used to justify almost any cruelty, from burning heretics and stoning adulterers to crucifying Jesus himself.

-snip-

Simon Smart (Christianity)

Religion has been implicated in all sorts of conflict and violence throughout human history. There is blood on the hands of the faithful, and no avoiding the fact that in the service of the wrong people, religion can be a force of great harm. This includes Christianity. If we consider the sins of the Christian past critics have plenty to work with – witch-hunts, the Crusades, Christian support of slavery.

more from each person at the link

[elleng]

1. Yes

[cbayer]

2. Ok. I guess an interview with you would have been very short.

[demosincebirth]

3. Redundant.

[cbayer]

5. I will also put you down as a very short interview.

[struggle4progress]

4. I am more likely to attribute the great evils to Vanity, Avarice, Wrath, Envy and other such human

failings, combined with our natural tendency to hide our lowest motives from ourselves by wrapping high-sounding ideals around them

[cbayer]

6. I tend to agree. While much conflict has been cloaked by or supported by religion,

there are generally underlying political, personal and/or financial motivations.

[skepticscott]

11. And yet you would never say

"While much good has been cloaked by or supported by religion, there are generally underlying political, personal and/or financial motivations."

You just blindly give religion the credit for doing every good thing you can come up with, while adamantly denying that it deserves fundamental blame for anything bad.

Is that hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty, or just willful blindness?

[trotsky]

21. Some people just love their double standards.

I think they believe it makes them look better than others, but in reality they just undermine their own credibility and engage in a form of soft bigotry.

[Promethean]

13. This is a good point but it begs the question

If one were to take away that wrapping of high-sounding ideals how many of the atrocities would happen? If the atrocity cannot be sold to the public at large it will either be hidden and will be a crime or simply not happen. Both cases are far superior in my view. If such an act is considered a crime it has at least a chance of being treated like one. Instead of being exalted.

[struggle4progress]

14. In my experience, looking at my own behavior and the behavior of other people I have known,

it is quite easy and quite common to provide high-falutin justifications for bad behavior

You seem to believe that "high-sounding ideals" are the motive for bad behavior: I do not doubt that people may sometimes convince themselves that their high ideals justify their behavior, but I suspect that the high ideals are often merely a cover story and that many different high-falutin justifications could serve the same purpose

In this regard, you might want to go back and look at the dozens of excuses given for Bush's Iraq adventure -- or WWI

[Promethean]

15. Easy to provide on a smaller scale sure.

But this is a discussion on larger scale wrongdoing. Hence why I chose the word Atrocity.

I am puzzled by your perception that I see the ideals as the motive. I clearly indicated that they are at best a cover for the Atrocities. My main point was without the cover the Atrocities cannot stand being public knowledge. They must be hidden, making them crimes, or they simply do not happen.

[trotsky]

17. Relevant quote:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

[Jim__]

7. "... humans also fight over small bits of compressed carbon, tracts of dirt, ..."

Then again, humans also fight over small bits of compressed carbon, tracts of dirt, addictive mind-altering substances and soccer matches. It's not just religious ideology that causes problems – state-imposed atheism was a defining feature of brutal 20th century regimes led by Stalin, Tito, Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot among others, which resulted in the suffering and murder of millions. Tens of thousands of Russian Christians alone were executed for their beliefs by atheists intent on purging religion from the Soviet Union.

Humans dominate the world. Our only competition is other groups of humans. That seems to be sufficient cause for conflict.

[cbayer]

8. When you are top of the food chain, the only ones you have to defend yourself against are those

in your same group.

One of the most influential books I have read is "Chimpanzee Poiitics". Despite pretty clearly having no religion, they engage in similar kinds of behaviors that humans do when it comes to resources and power.

[bravenak]

9. Yes.

Religion and assholes. Or assholes using religion as an excuse to do jacked up stuff.

[TexasProgresive]

10. NO-not that religious wackos aren't culpable but

religion is not the root cause- it is radical ideologies. Take away all the religions and people would still find something to hate and kill other people over. Haters gotta hate. That's all there is too it. They hate because of creed, skin color, language, the shape of a nose or eyes. The list is endless.

Many years ago I read a quote, "It at dawn all prejudices were wiped out, by noon we would've created new ones."

For some people religion is an excuse to hate for others it is a reason to love.

[skepticscott]

12. And is religion just an excuse to do good?

Or does it deserve actual credit for any of that?

[cbayer]

19. I like this answer.

While there is no doubt that religion has played a role, I agree that it is often just a tool or excuse.

Love the quote.

[TexasProgresive]

32. I found it on the web attributed to George Aikins.

If we were to wake up some morning and find that everyone was the same race, creed and color, we would find some other cause for prejudice by noon.

He was a republican governor of Vermont. If the rest of his clan was like him we would be in good shape. (if the wiki article is accurate)

[dimbear]

16. Let's say for fun it isn't exactly clear. Back before folks knew mosquitoes caused

yellow fever, they still had sense enough to stay out of swamps when the fever was going around.

Act accordingly.

[edhopper]

18. There are many places on Earth were violence

is at some of the lowest levels in human history. Mostly modern nations that are largely secular and where religion plays a smaller part in the lives of the people.

Do i think it is the only reason? No. Do I think it is part of the equation? Yes.

[cbayer]

20. Is there a correlation between levels of violence and religion?

I've never seen that information.

I have seen correlations between levels of poverty and religion, though. Might there be a connection with violence there?

[edhopper]

22. Steven Pinker has recently written a book about this.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Better-Angels-Our-Nature/dp/1455883115

http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/644374-has-religion-made-the-world-less-safe


As I said, a reason, not the only reason. Also ask yourself, why have the more secular, less religious countries done a better job of eliminating poverty?

[skepticscott]

23. Because the Christians in the United States

aren't REAL Christians.

The apologistas here will always dredge up a new rationalization...or an old one.

[cbayer]

24. What are the less religious more secular countries that have done a great job of eliminating poverty

I just looked at a list countries by religiousness and a list of countries by wealth and I see absolutely no correlation at all..

I have, however, seen data that indicates that poorer people are more likely to be religious. That makes sense because they are the most hopeless.

So, perhaps, you are mixing up correlation and causation.

[edhopper]

26. Look at post WWII Europe

Saudi Arabia is very wealthy, very religious and very violent.

[cbayer]

27. Er, that contradicts what you said previously. I don't see the correlation you propose.

Do you have access to data that shows that the less religious a country is, the more effective they have been at eliminating poverty?

[edhopper]

28. You don't see that the less religious countries in your list

also have the best social safety nets?

That post WWII Europe, after centuries of violence and war, became both less religious, less violent and helped their citizens more.

[cbayer]

29. There are some countries like that at the top of the list, but

there may be other reasons they have prospered other than being more secular. But I also see that some of the most secular countries are pretty low on the wealth scale and some prosperous countries that are pretty high on the religion scale (like Saudi Arabia, as you pointed out).

Again, I would like to see some reliable data that shows an actual correlation, being a skeptic and all. They only real data I have seen shows that the poorer you are, the more likely you are to be religious.

[edhopper]

30. Are we talking about violence

or eliminating poverty?

Either way I was thinking out loud, based on my recent readings of Pinker.

And i said from the beginning, it is just part of the issue, not the whole thing.

I do not know if it is the case, just worth looking at.

I don't think it is something that has been studied enough to point to a clear conclusion.

[cbayer]

31. It's pretty complex, as are most things having to do with religion.

No doubt that religion has been the cause violence and reinforced poverty in some areas. But it has also been a force for peace and taken care of some of the most marginalized people in the world.

In general, statistics are all over the place and it's really hard to pin down. Probably because religion is all over the place and hard to pin down, lol.

As to the Pinker article (or at least the excerpt linked to in the OP), I don't find it very convincing and it seems entirely lacking in data. But I suppose there is more in the book.

[cbayer]

25. By the way, here is the data I refer to concerning poverty and religion.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/religiosity-highest-world-poorest-nations.aspx