Religion
Related: About this forumHow can they torture me in hell?
If I don't have a body?
Stolen from Lin Yutang, The Importance of Living, Chapter:Why I am a Pagan. 1936.
Son of Christian missionaries who abandoned the faith.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)DreamGypsy
(2,252 posts)Last page after Gregor has uh, croaked...
from Introducing Kafka, also known as R. Crumb's Kafka, is an illustrated biography of Franz Kafka by David Zane Mairowitz and Robert Crumb. The book includes comic adaptations of some of Kafka's most famous works including The Metamorphosis...
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)i find his work to be queerly non-polarizing. he's a sexist pig, but because his idea of beauty is so open-minded he flatters everyone, and ridicules his own preoccupation with sex and in particular his obsession with a.. put delicately, baroque.. indelicately, plump.. female body type.
..there's that theory, and then there's this..
he's damn talented and funnier than shit.
DreamGypsy
(2,252 posts)...well, not me, but Aline Kominsky-Crumb did, and she admitted it in an article with that title in Newsweek, March 10 2005:
<Aline> No, he wouldn't. He'd be dead without me. [Laughs.] When I met him his life was such a wreck. He's really a soft guy. He just wants to be liked too much. When he says ineffectual, he just can't say no to people. There are always parasites ready to jump on somebody like that. So I'm the bad cop.
<Interviewer> He's always been criticized for being misogynistic and racist. You live with him. Is there any truth to that?
<Aline> Not at all. People just don't get satire. He pokes fun at every single stereotype in our society equally. He touches all the tender points of people's innate racism and sexism and ethnocentric attitudes which are all there just under the surface. When he does a thing about the "The Family That Lays Together Stays Together," anyone who thinks that he's proposing that people should indulge in incest would have to be pretty dumb.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)dimbear
(6,271 posts)edit: see above.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)tormented forever. I don't believe in hell.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)back and live in heaven or hell with them. Your boy would not come with ailments so you would never get sick.
I just think it is your soul that goes to heaven but you never know. I just don't believe in hell.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)it was easy.. didn't even need to read 'paradise lost' or 'grapes of wrath' first. wouldn't have anyway.. i was still reading 'the hardy boys' when i decided the devil was like an evil santa.. he was a threat my parents used to scare me into .. in my case .. not shoplifting, again. a common tween phenomenon, of which i was no exception.
after that i eventually *did* read 'paradise lost' and 'grapes of wrath' .. and now i'm an atheist.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Just does not seem logical that God would want us to suffer forever if we did not follow this rule and that. I think the church used to push hell when death was no longer a punishment that people feared.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)but there is also the beliefs themselves that shape individual behavior in society, how hell .. in a sense .. shapes behavior and actions.
for instance jihadists believe they'll automatically get into heaven if they die for the cause. is it their desire for heaven or their fear of hell .. indoctrinated into their sweet little heads as children .. that motivates them? terror. horror. horror. terror. zombies. apocalypse. it's their world.. tell me it's not hell that motivates them more than desire for some virgins and some oh so very very remote god.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)gordianot
(15,237 posts)LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)which means that hell, or heaven, have to be physical places that contain, collectively, billions of bodies, from this planet alone, for eternity - so they have to have near infinite capacity for the billions and billions more bodies that are going to pop in.
Seems to be just a bit improbable.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Who knows what happens but I hope there is a heaven.
Gore1FL
(21,130 posts)There are a lot of people I want to see again. Frankly, I'd kind of like to watch humanity advance, too. I'm not very confident, though that I'll get to do those things. Frankly, if Christians are right, I'll be standing in the "St. Thomas" line. I do hope you see me there.
In either case, this life thing is pretty cool!
No Vested Interest
(5,166 posts)similar to the resurrected body of Christ when He appeared to His Mother Mary, Mary Magdalen and the apostles after His Resurrection., i.e., He was able to go through doors and appear and disappear. The bodies will be perfect - without imperfections.
Heaven is a matter of faith as is hell. I believe it will be very different from what we imagine, we humans being limited in our imaginations.
Heaven will include the Beatific Vision; hell will be the absence of the Beatific Vision.
Many believe that at the moment of death all are given a last choice.
For that reason, I personally believe that few choose hell, but perhaps throughout all of humanity, some have made that choice.
I too look forward to seeing others in Heaven, especially my spouse, but also my ancestors, as I have some unanswered questions to ask them
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)No Vested Interest
(5,166 posts)We're all just where we are.
Likely doesn't pertain to you anyway.
I believe in hell not just as a matter of faith, but also as necessary for perfect justice, as God is all-Just.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)IIRC, he displayed his wounds to prove his identity. The resurrection process, in his case at least, didn't heal them or reverse them.
No Vested Interest
(5,166 posts)according to the Gospels.
I presume that was because Thomas had a need to see them, in order to believe.
Whether He had them before or after that instance, I have no idea. After all, He was/is the God/Man.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..
?!?
..
gotcha.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)hell just seems less logical. I know it doesn't make sense but I just like the idea of heaven without hell.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)my own path meandered somewhat before disillusionment set in, thanks to beatnik parents. in those times of my life when i did believe in heaven, after the age of about 13 it was a heaven without hell.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Sometime my faith is strong other times it is not. But that is life.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)maybe that's why there's more than one of them in my checkered 'spiritual' past.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)My advice to anyone is believe what makes sense to you. Don't let anyone push something on you because you will regret it. Just follow the heart.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)what if escaping hell *for sure* by blowing up some innocent people 'makes sense'?
that's the whole conundrum, innit?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)All of our religions are in need of reformations.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Even so, what body does the stillborn grossly deformed baby get? What mind? Does it ever occur to you that you believe in feel good fairy tales?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..if this was true then hell is falsifiable. either all these dead people exist *physically* somewhere in spacetime, or they don't. period. there's no room for other ways of thinking about that neat little loophole. if they do exist somewhere, then where? if it's not on this planet, then how do the dead people get there? one cannot *get* one's body back.. god or no god, that's just not going on anywhere in this universe, and it's not on the table for discussion afaic.
if hell is going on in this universe, then truly the onus is on believers in hell to *prove it*, or accept culpability for the negativity that this evil concept has rained down on humanity for far too long. it is no comfort to me to think of hitler in hell..
..sweet oblivion is heaven or hell, depending on whether or not you're good with your SELF.
Blue4Texas
(437 posts)The cosmetic surgeries?
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)So heaven will need lots of room...
And hell is going to be colossal with 110 billion people having lived, 102.3 billion physical bodies being tortured forever.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)XRubicon
(2,212 posts)I don't believe in heaven either... or god...
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)XRubicon
(2,212 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)That is a good way to torture someone.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..
anyone .. anyone?
(spoiler: no salida)
ropi
(976 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)sadly, this is your prize --->
xfundy
(5,105 posts)over and over and over again, just so there are plenty of nerve endings to feel the horrible pain. And if you're "saved," you fly up to heaven, physically. Except with clothes on, of course, and you can write a message to th' libruls and sinners on the soles of your shoes.
Glory! Jeebus is all about loooooove. Unconditional looooooove. As long as you do exactly what the preacher-man sez.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)old fundamentalist stuff no modern progressive Christians believes,
not much serious conversation can take place.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I thought all Christians believed in hell, just like I thought all Christians believe in original sin and substitutionary atonement, since those two concepts are the starting premises and foundational beliefs of Christianity.
Please don't give me a No True Scotsman answer. Follow the rules of logic.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)among millions of progressive Christians believing doctrines is not a focus. Original sin, substitutionary atonement, hell etc, have long since disappeared as concerns. They arose in the middle ages and the progressive church has gone far beyond these concerns
We are focused not on doctrines to be believed, but lives to be lived. Doing has overcome believing. Our focus is on the health of the planet, the rights of GLBTQ people, economic opportunity for all--etc. Where does this take place? In thousands of churches every week, in the seminaries of all the major denominations, in the various Councils Churches, in major publications such as The Christian Century, The National Catholic Reporter, the Center for Process Studies-, the Jesus Seminar and the Westar Institute, the Society for Biblical Research, the National Academy of Religions-- Divinity Schools like Yale, Harvard, Princeton, University of Chicago. Need I go on?
Fundamentalists and evangelicals still probably hold on to doctrines like that--and they get all the public attention, but for most of us who are not fundamentalists these old doctrines are gone. We do not say who is a Christian and who is not. Why bother with that. There are many other vital things to do in this world, and that is what we are about.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)That's pretty simple.
I've had xtians tell me they don't have creeds either, which is not true.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)out of a neo-Platonic notion that has long since been offered to the dust bins of both philosophy and history. Substitutionary theories developed in the 11the century. You are right. No original sin ,and therefore no need for substitutionary atonement.
I cannot remember the last time I was in a church that used any creed. And when it is used it is poetry. Bishop Pike, an Anglican, said he could not say the Creed but he could sing it.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)You go to a Protestant church that does not have a creed? Either in writing you have to subscribe to or read along with the congregation during services?
That's strange.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)A large majority of Democrats, and an even larger majority of Republicans believe in hell according to this Gallup poll:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/11770/eternal-destinations-americans-believe-heaven-hell.aspx
No matter how hard you close your eyes and wish it weren't true, it is. This isn't "old fundamentalist stuff," this is MAINSTREAM CHRISTIAN BELIEF.
Until you can accept that, nothing will change, and you are right - not much serious conversation can take place.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)OK then.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)They would insist that their religion is kind and loving and they ignore the judgmental and hateful parts. They would insist you can believe anything and be a Christian. They would insist that every word Jesus allegedly said was kind and loving.
And when you point out the real facts and read their scriptures back to them, they have a brick wall up.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)dimbear
(6,271 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Small ones, big ones, everywhere. Hissing at me, crawling on me
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)What's pain for? To warn you about damage to your body. Or your mind. (Which is actually part of your body too, only made of electricity.)
If you're indestructible or regenerate indefinitely, what's the point?