Father Christian von Wernich was found guilty of complicity in 7 murders, 42 kidnappings, and 32

[moobu2]

instances of torture and sentenced to life imprisonment in 2007. Father von Wernich escaped prosecution after the dirty war but was later discovered living under an assumed name and acting as a priest in Chile in 2003.

This is from a 2007 NYTime.com article.

A simple wooden cross hanging from his neck, the Rev. Rubén Capitanio sat before a microphone on Monday and did what few Argentine priests before him had dared to do: condemn the Roman Catholic Church for its complicity in the atrocities committed during Argentina’s “dirty war.”

Father von Wernich is accused of conspiring with the military during Argentina’s dirty war.
“The attitude of the church was scandalously close to the dictatorship” that killed more than 15,000 Argentines and tortured tens of thousands more, the priest told a panel of three judges here, “to such an extent that I would say it was of a sinful degree.” The panel is deciding the fate of the Rev. Christian von Wernich, a priest accused of conspiring with the military who has become for many a powerful symbol of the church’s role.

Some three months of often chilling testimony in the trial illustrated how closely some Argentine priests worked with military leaders during the dirty war. Witnesses spoke about how Father von Wernich was present at torture sessions in clandestine detention centers. They said he extracted confessions to help the military root out perceived enemies, while at the same time offering comforting words and hope to family members searching for loved ones who had been kidnapped by the government.

<snip>

Hernán Brienza, a journalist who helped find the priest in Chile and wrote a book about the case, said he believed that about 30 other Argentine priests, some already dead, could have been brought up on human rights charges for their involvement in torture.

<snip>

In Argentina, however, there was a much tighter relationship between the clergy and the military than existed in Chile or Brazil. “Patriotism came to be associated with Catholicism,” said Kenneth P. Serbin, a history professor at the University of San Diego who has written about the Roman Catholic Church in South America. “So it was almost natural for the Argentine clergy to come to the defense of the authoritarian regime.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/17/world/americas/17church.html?_r=0

[moobu2]

1. Father von Wernich gave absolution to police for killing and torture

and told them they were doing Gods work.

This from BBC

Dirty War' priest gets life term

Von Wernich showed no emotion as he was sentenced

A court in Argentina has convicted a former Roman Catholic police chaplain of collaborating in murders during the country's military rule.
Christian Von Wernich, 69, was convicted for involvement in seven murders, 42 abductions and 31 cases of torture during the 1976-83 "Dirty War".

Survivors say he passed information he obtained from prisoners to the police.

As he was sentenced, Father Von Wernich showed no emotion. Protesters torched his effigy outside the court.

<snip>

They say he attended several torture sessions and absolved the police of blame, telling them they were doing God's work.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7035294.stm

[okasha]

2. While terrible, this says

nothing about Bergoglio. As an attempt to establish guilt by association, it's pretty feeble.

Once again, what was the outcome of the accusation aginst Begoglio?

[moi]

3. it is about Bergoglio

As the head of the Church, Bergoglio did nothing regarding this monster; futhermore, he was not "defrocked" and was allowed to give mass (and probably sacraments, eucharist and communion) while in prison. Bergoglio also "put the dust under the rug" in the case of a priest convicted of molesting young boys.

I really should write something about the man now named Francis while he was the head of the Church in Argentina... in a nutshell.. his "political buddies" are people to the right of Paul Ryan!!!

Peace
Marcos

[struggle4progress]

4. The CONADEP report discusses, for example, von Wernich's behavior in 1977. Bergoglio

first became a bishop in 1992 and became a cardinal in 1998, so it is unclear why you think he was "head of the Church in Argentina" during the military dictatorship that ended in 1983

Here is how the CONADEP report begins its discussion of von Wernich

The bishops of the Argentinian Church repeatedly condemned the repression which this Commission investigated. Scarcely two months had passed since the coup on 24 March 1976 when the Episcopal Conference in a General Assembly described the methods used as 'sinful'. In May 1977, after making representations to members of the Military Junta, it published a strongly worded document on similar lines.

Regrettably, some individual members of the clergy by their presence, their silence or even by direct involvement supported the very actions that had been condemned by the Church as a whole ...

http://www.desaparecidos.org/nuncamas/web/english/library/nevagain/nevagain_179.htm

[moobu2]

7. The poster wasn't saying Pope Francis was

"head of the Church in Argentina during the military dictatorship".

I don't mean to speak for anyone but it looks like moi was simply saying that at one time Pope Francis was head of the Catholic church in Argentina and as the head of the catholic church he never took any action against the priests who took part in murder, torture and kidnappings. In fact the Catholic church never officially investigated the charges against the priests and it never ordered the priests to cooperate with investigators.

As of 2010 Father Christian von Wernich is still permitted to conduct Catholic Mass and hear confession in prison.

Pope Francis was Archbishop of Buenos Aires from 1998–2013. During that time he functioned as the head of the Catholic Church.

Whats so hard to understand about that?

[Phillip McCleod]

19. exactly but maybe the rcc has a statute of limitation on genocide..

..based on past actions it would seem so.

[okasha]

5. No, it isn't.

The OP is trying rather desperately to make it about Bergoglio, but he has not presented any evidence of a connection. The new Pope was not a member of the hierarchy at the time of the dirty war and had authoruty only over fellow Jesuits within his own province.

[moobu2]

8. Reread the original OP because I never mentioned Bergoglio in any way shape or form

Matter of fact you are the first person to drag Bergoglio's name into this thread.

[okasha]

11. Which looks very much like an attempt

to bolster the thread in which you made allegations against Bergoglio which you have failed to substantiate.

Once again, what was the ourcome of the criminal charge you referenced in your previous post?

[cbayer]

12. Oh, please. Are you honestly saying that you had no intention of impugning Bergoglio

by posting this? Honestly?

[Phillip McCleod]

20. do we like the new pope?

i was under the impression that everyone had to earn respect.

[cbayer]

21. What does that have to do with anything?

I am definitely in a wait and watch mode, but have some degree of optimism.

I do, however, object to those that wish to undermine him before he even gets a chance.

You are free to take whatever position you want.

[Phillip McCleod]

24. why the optimism?

has the rcc ever given you any reason to be optimistic? or are you hoping for a miracle?

[cbayer]

25. Yes they have. I have worked extensively with RCC organizations in places where they

were one of the only groups providing for the neediest among us. It wasn't a miracle. It was boots on the ground hard work and dedication.

I am optimistic for several reasons.

Despite having limited choices, they chose an outsider, a jesuit, a man from South America and someone who has lived very simply and done a lot of work for the poor.

Now, there are things I don't like about him, but that baggage would have come with any of them and, for now, I am somewhat optimistic.

You asked about someone earning respect and I agree. I think it's as foolish to approach him with a total lack of respect as it is to be unquestioning in one's respect.

[Phillip McCleod]

26. really? what past positions as cardinal has the new pope taken that..

..should earn him even a modicum of *a priori* respect?

he's at less than zero. he's at negative a million in my book and i find your optimism..

..depressing.

[cbayer]

27. I find your inability to give him a chance depressing, so I guess we are even.

[Phillip McCleod]

35. it's not inability.. it's unwillingness.

[cbayer]

36. You win!!!

[kwassa]

38. Everyone deserves respect without any proof.

Until they show, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they don't deserve respect.

Innocent until proven guilty.

In my worldview, people don't have to earn it, they deserve it until proven otherwise. Your worldview might be different.

[Phillip McCleod]

41. in my book everyone gets a modicum.. all the same and all on probation..

until i get to know them personally. i definitely don't hand out lip-service 'respect' willynilly like some.

[cbayer]

6. Where do you get the information that he was "head of the church"?

And where do you get the information about his "political buddies"? I've seen nothing to substantiate that, only that he withdrew protection from a couple of priests who were unwilling to follow his directions.

[moobu2]

9. It's pretty common knowlege Pope Francis was head of the Catholic Church in Argentina.

He was Archbishop of Buenos Aires from 1998 to 2013.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

[cbayer]

10. Not during the incident that you have drug out of the archives.

[moobu2]

14. I never claimed he was.

It appears that you, okasha and SFP respond to imaginary facts that you think you see - over and over and over.

[cbayer]

15. So what was your purpose in posting this story?

Honestly.

[moobu2]

17. Actually, I was reading about the Catholic church's involvement in Argentina's dirty war

just recently, maybe a month ago, so it was still fresh on my mind. Why not post about it here? It's important to remember these people are no better than anyone else and a lot of them are much much worse.

[cbayer]

23. So, you had an interest in the church in Argentina a month ago, and decided to post about it now.

Right. It has nothing to do with the new pope.

There is nothing new in the fact that these people are not better and often worse than everyone else.

[okasha]

28. Spelling, cbayer.

That should be «Riiiiiight.»

[cbayer]

29. I stand corrected.

[moobu2]

31. I didn't say that.

[kwassa]

30. so, the new Pope is guilty as this guy by living in the same country?

Guilt by geography?

[okasha]

32. Cooties.

It's all about cooties.

[moobu2]

33. How old are you... 12?

[okasha]

39. Why?

You looking for an older woman?

[moobu2]

40. Why?

Is your mother available?

[moobu2]

13. In 1988, Father Christian Wernich was appointed to a small parish church in Argentina.

soon after, the towns people spontaneously gathered and surrounded the church chanting 'murderer'. The town council declared father Wernich 'persona non grata'. The council also unanimously approved a motion calling on the local bishop to withdraw the priest which was ignored. After Bishop Ubaldo Calabresi who was acting as the vatican's diplomatic representative (the equivalent of Ambassador) declined to get involved, the townspeople organized a march which brought attention from national newspapers and political figures.

This is from the LA Times in 1988. Keep in mind this was written before Father Wernich was charged and convicted of complicity in 7 murders, 42 kidnappings, and 32 instances of torture and sentenced to life imprisonment in 2007.

Argentine Priest Bears Heavy Cross: 'Dirty War' : Townspeople Protest Against Ex-Police Chaplain Accused of Rights Violations

RAGADO, Argentina — When a new parish priest arrived in this placid farming town 10 days ago, scores of people stood outside his church and shouted, "Murderer!"

The town council declared Father Christian von Wernich persona non grata. Trade unions and civic organizations castigated him. Families boycotted Mass or refused to let him baptize their babies.

And while Von Wernich was saying Mass on Saturday evening for about 150 worshipers inside Santa Rosa de Lima Church, more than 2,000 townspeople marched silently outside, demanding the priest's ouster.As a police chaplain, Von Wernich is accused of having been indirectly involved in, or at least not to have opposed, human rights abuses during military rule in Argentina from 1976 to 1983. At least 9,000 people were arrested and killed in the security services' so-called dirty war against alleged leftist subversion during that time.

Von Wernich has been mentioned by name in several human rights complaints, including one involving a victim from Bragado. News of his appointment on Nov. 13 opened old wounds that had begun to heal in the five years since the return of democratic rule. The debate has reverberated throughout the country and has provided an issue for human rights activists.

The uproar has threatened at times to overshadow the townspeople's straightforward plea, expressed in a town council declaration read out when the march ended at the train station: "God wants this saddened people to be heard."

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-11-28/news/mn-387_1_dirty-war

[okasha]

16. It appears to escape you

that no one here is defending this criminal.

Meantime, what was the outcome of the accustion filed against Bergoglio?

[moobu2]

18. Why don't you do some research yourself and stop harassing me about it?

Since he was elected Pope there have been thousands and thousand and thousands of stories about the Pope's involvement in Argentina's dirty war. Search "Pope Francis dirty war" and have a look.

[okasha]

22. Or you could just give an honest answer

and move on.

You raised the topic. You should be prepared to respond to reasonable questions.

[romeno182]

34. probably the new pope knew

the catholic church exactly knew what was happening, even videla stated that. not only that but they advised them on how to handle the dirty war

so theres a chanche or at least to consider that even the new pope knew about it.. but seems that the catholic church has immunity when it comes to crimes against humanity

hopefully anonymous or somebody else will brink light to the circle of death: vatican, cia and militar junta