Full text: What Pope Francis said in his first speech as pontiff

[struggle4progress]

Brothers and sisters, good evening!

You know that it was the duty of the Conclave to give Rome a Bishop. It seems that my brother Cardinals have gone to the ends of the earth to get one ...

And now, we take up this journey: Bishop and People. This journey of the Church of Rome which presides in charity over all the Churches. A journey of fraternity, of love, of trust among us. Let us always pray for one another. Let us pray for the whole world, that there may be a great spirit of fraternity ...

http://www.firstpost.com/world/full-text-what-pope-francis-said-in-his-first-speech-as-pontiff-661118.html

[NaturalHigh]

1. I personally think he will be a great Pope.

[Goblinmonger]

2. As compared to the last jag bag or in general?

Because
1. He has rejected liberation theology (which many in this forum think is the norm for all religion today)
2. He is against LGBT rights
3. He is against women's rights
4. He is against reproductive freedom

But, hey, maybe there are some things in there that will make him a great pope. Seems to care somewhat about poor people.

[NaturalHigh]

3. He has spoken forcefully and at length about poverty.

Did you really think that someone who is considered "liberal" on same-sex marriage, abortion, and the ordination of women could possibly be considered? That would eliminate the entire College of Cardinals (and likely the majority of Catholics worldwide) as candidates. It would literally destroy the Church.

[trotsky]

4. So on what standard are you basing your statement...

that he will be a "great pope"?

"Great" according to whom? Certainly not women or non-heterosexuals, I would imagine.

[NaturalHigh]

5. I would imagine that a great many women and non-heterosexuals...

who happen to be poor will be encouraged.

So many seem to want a pope who will jump right in and throw out two thousand years of theology. That's not going to happen, and it would destroy the Church if it did.

[trotsky]

6. Good thing you've set the bar low.

For someone to be a "great" pope, I would think they'd have to address and change the worst things the church is doing. And if the church has to be "destroyed" to allow women and gays to be equal, maybe that's not such a bad thing. Plenty of other groups are doing work for the poor without all the negative baggage the RCC has.

[NaturalHigh]

7. Yes, I think he will be a great Pope.

I celebrate his election and pray for him. If that offends you for some reason, sorry 'bout that.

[trotsky]

8. Yeah, it offends me to see someone praising a guy...

who views women and homosexuals as (at best) 2nd class citizens not worthy of full equality in their lives.

Sorry 'bout that.

[NaturalHigh]

11. Sorry to offend you then.

I'm guessing you must be offended by a few hundred million other people this morning too. Joy for the election of Pope Francis is pretty common this morning.

[trotsky]

15. Millions were overjoyed when Gee-Dubya was elected and re-elected.

I wasn't. Unsurprisingly, for some of the same reasons I'm not excited for your new guy. Again, sorry!

[NaturalHigh]

18. Fair enough.

I will continue to be happy about Pope Francis' election if that's okay. Or am I required to display the same requisite outrage as you for some reason?

[trotsky]

21. You can be as happy as you want!

I see no reason to celebrate the appointment of a new leader who will continue to steer the world's largest anti-choice, anti-woman, anti-gay institution in the same direction. But evidently that's just me.

Have fun and please enjoy the last word...

[mr blur]

22. You pope lovers make me think of a flock of sheep,

rejoicing and congratulating the new wolf in charge of the flock because he's promised to only kill and eat the "abnormal" sheep, not the well-behaved "normal" ones.

Fuck him and his whole misogynist, homophobic, corrupt, rotten cult organisation.

[Phillip McCleod]

47. thank you for saying what so very many of us have been thinking..

..

there's definitely a reason i haven't been posting much in this corner of DU lately..

[EvilAL]

28. They don't have to throw out 2000 years of theology

to change 3 little things do they? Maybe if they just started by throwing out the first couple hundred years.

[Goblinmonger]

9. So he's not shitty toward the poor

and that equals him being a "great Pope."

At least you have standards that homophobic and misogynistic assholes can meet.

I don't think that "literally destroying the Church" would be a bad thing if that church is one that denies "same-sex marriage, abortion, and the ordination of women." Would you also be so worried about something that "literally destoyed" the Tea Bag Party?

[NaturalHigh]

10. What does this have to do with the Tea Party?

Yes, I think that literally destroying the Church would be a bad thing. Fortunately, institutions that have been around for two thousand years aren't too worried about what you or I post on a message board.

Yes, I believe he will be a great Pope.

[Goblinmonger]

12. If what you mean is that he will be great leader of a homophobic and sexist institution

Then I agree with you.

If I'm happy that a homophobic and sexist institution elected someone of like mind, then no, he won't make a great Pope. He's going to be just as shitty as the last guys were.

[NaturalHigh]

13. I'm guessing you don't care much for the Catholic Church in general.

Kind of makes me wonder why you are in this forum.

[Goblinmonger]

14. Oh, that old chestnut.

This isn't the Catholic safe haven group. It's a discussion of Religion.

Once the Catholic Church, and religion in general, stops having an impact on my life, I will gladly stop discussing them. But as they continue to spread their hatred of women and gays (and other things), I think I am more than allowed to call bullshit on them.

[NaturalHigh]

16. You are certainly allowed to call whatever you like on them.

I just think it's interesting that you choose to do it in this particular forum.

The Catholic Church is not the government. Same-sex couples can't get married in the Church, but that doesn't stop them from getting married in Washington or other states. Are you in favor of forcing churches to perform marriages that violate their own doctrines?

[Goblinmonger]

17. Are you actually pretending

that the religions don't have an impact on governmental policy? That the RCC in particular hasn't exerted a great deal of power to try and sway policy? Did you follow Prop 8 and the power that the Mormon Church exerted? Have you not read about what the RCC has done in Africa in trying to stop people with AIDS from using condoms?

When that goofy shit stops, I'll stop talking about them.

[NaturalHigh]

19. Churches have impact on governments because they have impact on their congregants.

Those congregants then get to vote. No, I have no problem with that.

Nice talking to you, but I do have to sign off for now. Have a great day.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. that seems to be a new tack.

religion is about as important as, for example, golf.

[moobu2]

41. To me, he only seems to care about the poor to the extent that the church can exploite them

for political purposes. As long as there is this system where the poor beg the church for food, clothing and housing and the wealthy donate to the church to feed, cloth and house the poor giving the church all the power, perpetuating that system, he's fine with that. But let the people organize farm collectives so they can make a better life for themselves and their families or let them organize trade unions to negotiate with businesses to pay them a better wage, well, he seems OK with turning his head while some military dictator tortures them and throws them from airplanes alive. His system of helping the poor is a system that would perpetuate ignorance, overpopulation, powerlessness of the people to help themselves etc...

[Phillip McCleod]

48. in argentina the finca lords rule with the blessing of dole and del monte

as do similar landowner classes in other nations in central and so. america. they are generally the lighter skinned often u.s. educated children of the grandchildren of conquistadors in the popular imagination and the stars of the telenovellas. 'i rigoberta menchu' offers one insight into the stilted relationship between agribusiness and the poor.. '1000 years of solitude' another. it's circumstances like argentina's under dictatorship that forged liberation theology. it's those very experiences that gave the rcc it's only spit-shine in 1500 years.. and which of course the hierarchy, including the new pope same as the old pope, has explicitly denounced.

capital rules. in argentina and now in vatican city. the rcc isn't pandering to the poor in latin america. it's pandering to the ruling class and speaking the same lingo.. pandering to the poor is what the finca lord's public relations people do, too.

[goldent]

29. I also like him more as I learn more about him.

The news coverage has been great, and exciting.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

20. I shall certainly hope for greatness

And pray that I not be disappointed.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. Intercessory prayer study.

Results: In the two groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred
in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those
who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% confidence interval 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in
59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52%
(315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% confidence
interval 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
Conclusions: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from
CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of
complications.

http://www.templeton.org/pdfs/press_releases/060407STEP_paper.pdf

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

30. So what you are saying is "prayer does not work".

I prefer to go with the advice given by Augustine of Hippo, "I should pray as if it all depended on God, and I should work as if it all depended on me."

[Warren Stupidity]

31. It was worse than "doesn't work".

In fact the study found that the targets of intercessory prayer fared significantly worse if they knew that people were praying for them.

But yes, when studied using modern methods, prayer is shown to not work. The Templeton Foundation is very religion friendly, they were hoping for a different outcome.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

32. By one whole percentage point

which is undoubtedly within the margin of error.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. read again.

This time try not to read into the text. Target groups that were aware they were being prayed for had significantly worse outcomes.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

39. let me put that correctly

"Target groups that were aware they were being prayed for had trivially worse outcomes." Obviously, you did not read the bit about confidence numbers.

In fact, the two groups had essentially the same results, within the margin of error.

[cleanhippie]

33. You should go with Matthew's advice intead.

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. - Matthew 6:5-6


I guess actually following what your holy book says is a bit too much, though?

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

34. It is amazing that you, who have never met or seen me, know what my style of prayer is

Tell me what the winning lottery numbers will be, since you have extrasensory perception.

[cleanhippie]

35. I know exactly who you are.

And what your "style" is.



You have a nice day

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

36. No, you don't

You may think you do, but actually, you do not.

Yes, I am solidly against bigotry, and I sometimes inveigh on it in intemperate terms. But that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the way that I pray -- which is exactly what you pretend that you know about me.

No, you are simply one more armchair psychologist, reading tealeaves -- and not doing it very well either. But then, you have nothing to go on but your own prejudices.

[cleanhippie]

37. You have no idea what bigotry is, and if you did, you wouldn't toss about the accusation as you do.

If you really want to know, consult your nearest mirror and reflect on YOUR words and YOUR actions.

Then, learn how to follow the advice you so freely give to everyone else.

Then, say hi to humblebum for us.

Then, have a nice day.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

40. As I CORRECTLY said

You think you know what my style of prayer is -- you remember "style of prayer", the thing you started nattering about a few posts ago, based on nothing but your own prejudices

You then move on (without actually saying you are doing so, but I do not expect either grace or honesty from you, based on my experience with you) to nattering about my style in general, something else you do not know much about.
I do take the advice I give others: I refuse to put up with bigotry. I know, actual atheistic bigotry is just peachy-keen dandy on DU, while pointing out said bigotry is completely unacceptable. I have already told the forum moderator that I will stop complaining about bigotry, so you can stop sending my posts to juries. Can I ask you to do something? Stop making bigoted posts (not that I'm complaining about those posts), but it will certainly give me no reason to complain about them.

[cleanhippie]

43. Cool story, bro.

Oh, and one last thing....


MILITANT ATHEISTS!!!!11111!!!!

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

42. I know EXACTLY what bigotry is

And I have seen it here. You either do not know what it is or else you are in denial.

There are those such as Richard Dawkins -- and yes, he did say it, despite what some would have you believe -- who say that "raising a child to be Catholic is worse than child abuse". THAT is bigotry, pure and simple

Your "have a nice day" is obviously insincere, so you can drop it.

[skepticscott]

44. Then show us where he said that. Link to the quote.

PROVE IT. Once and for all. You've been challenged to back up this claim over and over, and you've failed, miserably. What's worse, your smearing as a bigot of anyone who supports Dawkins is based on this falsehood.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

45. I did link to it, and I'm not going to bother to do it again

You are obviously in denial about Dawkins' bigotry and bigoted statements. That's your problem, not mine -- just ask yourself why you find bigotry to be something worth defending, and why you attack me for hating bigotry.

I am done with this conversation. It is clear that neither one of us has anything more to say. You will undoubtedly want to have the last word (undoubtedly in another baseless attack on me -- the Ad Hominem is clearly one of your favourite modes of discourse), so have it and be done with it.

[skepticscott]

46. No, you didn't

I defy you to show us where you did. Just more made up nonsense to try to get you off the hook for what you know is a blatant falsehood. Until you can prove that the statement you claim constitutes "bigotry" was even made, none of the rest of this is worth considering. Come on...you can shut me up right now by linking to that EXACT quote. If you're telling the truth, it would be very easy to do. We all know you'd love to do that, so if you fail again, that pretty much tells the story.

Despite your (again) false claim, you haven't been attacked for "hating bigotry". It's simply been pointed out that the quote that you base your claim of "bigotry" on was never uttered by the person in question, but was invented by you. If there's any "denial" here, that's where it is. And what's really sad is that everyone, even your more ardent admirers (and you), knows that you made that quote up.

[trotsky]

50. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

Does that mean anything to you?

[mr blur]

49. You just haven't got a clue. And you're the worst bigot around this group.

Which is quite an achievement.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

53. Should I report you?

I have been slammed for saying much milder things. But then, you atheist bigots have no shame. Nor do abide anyone who points out your bigotry.

BTW, you want another source for Dawkins' bigoted statement? Tryhere which has

Interviewer Mehdi Hasan asked Professor Dawkins about previous comments he made, when he said: ‘Horrible as sexual abuse no doubt was, the damage was arguably less than the long-term psychological damage inflicted by bringing the child up Catholic in the first place.’

No, Dawkins said it, and it is a bigoted statement. Dawkins is a bigot, and you apparently applaud his bigotry. Don't you feel proud?

[cbayer]

23. I liked it.

He showed some humor, was self-deprecating and asked for the people to pray for him.

While by no means perfect, I haven't read the bio of any other cardinal that I think would have been better.

I hope my optimism has not been completely misplaced.

:fingerscrossed:

[struggle4progress]

26. The line about the Bishop of Rome is not only amusing, it might signal

something about his outreach to the non-Roman-Catholic world. The question of the primacy of the Roman See has been an issue since the old schism between the Eastern and Western churches, and the question has also been an issue for some protestant denominations since the Reformation era splits. Many people of other sects have said, over the intervening years, that they were prepared to recognize the pope as Bishop of Rome, even if they were unprepared to accept far more sweeping claims of Roman authority. By expressing surprise that the conclave reached so far abroad when choosing the Bishop of Rome, he seems to have had some gentle fun with these old disputes. It rather reminds me of that lovely line from John XXII, "The Pope is infallible only when he speaks ex cathedra, but I will never speak ex cathedra." I am hoping Francis will wield his influence with real pastoral grace

[cbayer]

27. Thanks for that information. I wasn't aware of the back story.

Pastoral grace would be very nice.

[Pab Sungenis]

51. Why I am encouraged.

First, he is more humble than his two immediate predecessors. Witness his first appearance. Haven't seen anything like that since John Paul I.

Two, we're not going to change centuries of hatred overnight, but he's a step in the right direction. His promise of a poor church that concentrates on spiritual and not political matters is a game changer.

Third, he's another placeholder. He's 76 and only has one lung. He won't rule for 20+ years like John Paul II, probably closer to 10 or maybe 15 like Paul VI. He won't get too firmly entrenched.

[struggle4progress]

52. I'm hoping the Catholic hierarchy will turn back toward the preferential-option-for-the-poor

and will confront the gross economic injustices of the modern world

It seems less likely to me that the church will quickly rethink its attitudes towards gender issues and sexuality