Good News Clubs: Psychologically abusing your children in a public elementary school near you!

[backscatter712]

By popular request, reposting in Religion.

I'm talking about the Good News Clubs that have been springing up in public schools thanks to a 5-4 Supreme Court decision (three guesses which justices were in the majority, and the first two don't count.)

http://www.goodnewsclubs.info/

Last week, I went to see Richard Dawkins, Sean Faircloth, Eric Cernyar and Katherine Stewart discuss Good News Clubs, fundamentalist Bible clubs that are opening up in public schools across the nation, trying to convert everyone's kids to their particularly extreme flavor of Christianity.

They gave a classic example of the kinds of lessons they teach as part of the Good News: the battle of Israel versus the Amalekites.

Recap: God ordered Saul and the Israelites to attack the Amalekites and slaughter them all - man, woman, child, cattle, ALL! The Israelites didn't obey. They kept the cattle, and spared the kids. Not good enough. God was PISSED! He was only appeased after they slaughtered the prisoners, the children, the cattle, the babies, everything.

Lesson as taught to the children in Good News Clubs: OBEY! When Abraham was ordered by God to bring his son to the mountain and barbecue him, he was required to OBEY. When the Israelites were ordered to slaughter all the Amalekites. Not just some of them, ALL OF THEM, they were required to OBEY! If you, child, are ordered by God or your friendly religious authority figures to shoot a baby in the face, OBEY!

Yep, that's what the Good News Clubs consider to be an appropriate lesson to teach to six-year-old children. Isn't that cute?

Oh, and on top of that, they teach the classic Christian doctrines of original sin, the sinful nature of man, and the salvation of Christ.

Let me translate that into how the Good News Clubs teach it.

Because a man 6,000 years ago was goaded by his woman, who in turn was goaded by a talking snake, into eating a forbidden Apple of Smartness from a magic tree, YOU ARE A HORRIBLE PERSON! YOU ARE EVIL! YOU DESERVE DEATH! YOU DESERVE TO BE TORTURED AND LEFT SCREAMING IN FIRE FOREVER AND EVER UNLESS YOU REPENT, GIVE YOURSELF TO JESUS AND (all together now...) [font size=5]OBEY!!![/font]

Yeah, that's also appropriate to teach to impressionable and emotionally vulnerable kindergartners! If I had kids, I'd sign them right up!

Worse yet, their tactics are to get into public schools, and pretend as much as possible that they're just another class for the kids. One club, when told to take their toxic theology out of the local elementary school, and in return, being offered more space in the Baptist church across the street, refused. They want to be in the school. When possible, they try to get a fundamentalist teacher or teacher's aid or volunteer in the school to also lead the Good News Club. To the kids, they don't know the difference, they think it's just another class - English, Math, Science, Bible! Taught by authoritatively speaking adults, often school staff - what better way to force the Jesus-Aid down their little throats? To the kids, it's another class. To the courts, it's an after-school club that of course doesn't violate separation of church and state by sticking itself remora-like to a public school.

A little video on Good News Clubs:

[no_hypocrisy]

1. If Good News Clubs have to be allowed, why not elementary clubs for

humanists, ethical culturalists, atheists, agnostics, etc.?

[backscatter712]

3. Dawkins et al discussed this.

You're technically correct - if they have to let in the fundies, they have to let in the Student Secular Alliance.

But try doing this deep in the Bible Belt.

When the Good News Club gets challenged for serving Kool-Aid to the kids, all the fundies in town close ranks and protect it.

When the Student Atheist club tries to form and have its first meeting, all of the sudden, the organizers get bullied in school, parents and teachers trying to support the club get death threats, when police and school administration are alerted, they sit on their asses.

I'm not saying it's a complete waste of time to get the Student Secular Alliance in more schools - in fact, that supreme court ruling made it possible for these clubs to grow too. But the Good News Clubs don't have to deal with death threats.

[cbayer]

4. They would have to accept all of those and would likely lose any judicial challenge

to block them.

[cbayer]

2. Frightening. An expose was published last year:

The Good News Club:
The Christian Right’s Stealth Assault on America’s Children
http://www.thegoodnewsclub.com/book

When challenged, they have been consistently winning their cases about having programs in public schools.

Here is another recent article about a parents concern about their intrusion into her local school:
The not so good news club
http://www.lockhaven.com/page/content.detail/id/543761/The-not-so-good-news-club.html?nav=5006

Glad you posted this. The more it is exposed, the better.

[backscatter712]

22. Good info here! n/t

[struggle4progress]

44. How Christian fundamentalists plan to teach genocide to schoolchildren (Katherine Stewart)

Good News Clubs' evangelism in schools is already subverting church-state separation. Now they justify murdering nonbelievers
Katherine Stewart
Wednesday 30 May 2012 10.15 EDT

... The CEF has been teaching the story of the Amalekites at least since 1973. In its earlier curriculum materials, CEF was euphemistic about the bloodshed, saying simply that "the Amalekites were completely defeated." In the most recent version of the curriculum, however, the group is quite eager to drive the message home to its elementary school students. The first thing the curriculum makes clear is that if God gives instructions to kill a group of people, you must kill every last one:

"You are to go and completely destroy the Amalekites (AM-uh-leck-ites) – people, animals, every living thing. Nothing shall be left."

"That was pretty clear, wasn't it?" the manual tells the teachers to say to the kids ... The instruction manual goes on to champion obedience in all things. In fact, pretty much every lesson that the Good News Club gives involves reminding children that they must, at all costs, obey. If God tells you to kill nonbelievers, he really wants you to kill them all. No questions asked, no exceptions allowed ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/30/christian-fundamentalists-plan-teach-genocide

[skepticscott]

5. Careful..this will get you branded as a "bigot"

by some of the more apologetic and dishonest folk here.

Indoctrinating children with deeply held religious principles can NEVER be abusive...right??

[backscatter712]

6. Let me know how the alert goes. n/t

[skepticscott]

8. Oh, they won't have the stones to alert on you

They'll just fling more poo in here, and use the "bigot" label as a dodge to keep from engaging on the facts.

[nonoyes]

7. Just watched that entire video today

Very frightening that these groups have such a free an unchallenged access to children anywhere in this nation.

And, evidently, nothing can legally stop them from preaching their "message" to these impressionable children.

[cbayer]

9. Parents can stop them. Participation in these clubs is always voluntary.

It is also possible to counter them with clubs that pursue an entirely different agenda.

The courts will allow them as long as schools are open to all kinds of groups, and that's the right decision, imo.

[nonoyes]

10. Actually, if you watched the video and read the court's decision, -

a prinicpal or a group of parents can get the after-school art class kicked out, can stop the Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, any after-school activity, from meeting on school grounds,

but the school CANNOT stop the free speech rights of these religious groups from offering their "Good News" activities, even if the majority of parents and school administrators want them out of school.

If you watched the video, I'm afraid you may have missed that very important point.

As for your very constructive point:

It is also possible to counter them with clubs that pursue an entirely different agenda.

I doubt many communities with a majority of Christians would be challenged by non-religious, or anti-religious or atheist or agnostic groups. I doubt that would happen in the America I live in today. Even the Boy Scouts wants their membership to be made up of God-believers. Perhaps sometime when self-proclaimed religiously affiliated people are less than half of Americans, perhaps that will happen, which is not these times we live in.

[cbayer]

11. Which court case are you referring to?

The New York case specifically states that if a school allows things like the boy scouts, they have to allow these clubs as well. I can't find anything that gives them preferential treatment, just equal treatment.

If this group got itself organized so that they are effectively inserting themselves into schools, then it is up to others to challenge them with alternatives.

[nonoyes]

13. You didn't view the video, That would be the United States Supreme Court, 2001.

June 12, 2001

The Supreme Court ruled today that public schools must open their doors to after-school religious activities, including those that involve young children, on the same basis as any other after-hours activity that school policy permits.

The 6-to-3 decision extended to elementary school property the same constitutional principle the court has already applied to public high schools and colleges: that the expression of a religious viewpoint is speech, protected by the First Amendment against discrimination and entitled on a neutral basis to access to public facilities that are open to other speakers.

Letting the Good News Club, an evangelical Christian organization, use a room in an upstate New York school building on the same basis as other groups ''would ensure neutrality, not threaten it,'' Justice Clarence Thomas wrote for the majority.

The decision overturned a ruling last year by the federal appeals court in Manhattan, which held that in excluding the club, the Milford, N.Y., school district was not discriminating against religious speech but was following a valid policy of not permitting ''quintessentially religious'' subjects to be taught on school property.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/12/us/supreme-court-religion-free-speech-top-court-gives-religious-clubs-equal-footing.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

[cbayer]

14. Right, they have to open the door the same as they do for any other activities.

The groups can't be excluded because they are religious, they have to be treated the same. There is not special treatment because they are religious.

[nonoyes]

18. Actually, all other activities do not enjoy that same privilege

An art class can be cancelled because it is too messy. A Judo class can be cancelled because parents don't want their children learning to fight. A chess club, or cooking class, a Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Brownies, Girl Scouts, etc. etc. etc. None of those groups enjoy the imprimateur of the US Supreme Court, granting religious groups fundamental, un-deniable free speech access to the public schools.

What schools must do is keep their doors open to publicly subsidized rights of Christians to preach or indoctrinate children from 4 to whatever age, using whatever "free speech" techniques they wish to use, uncensored.

To offer publicly funded facilities opportunities for these fundamentalist Christian groups to be with all children and offer those children food, candy, prizes, games, and more, all without restriction, I find it appauling. Don't you?

[cbayer]

19. You are reading it wrong.

[nonoyes]

20. I am quoting from the video from a human rights lawyer

Sorry, but I am not a lawyer, but she is, and she reads what the decision said, and how it will be enforced.

If it were just me, I mght agree. But I realize I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to Supreme Court decisions and their implication.

I'd be happy to say that school administrators and a majority of parents can get these guys out of our public schools, but people more well-schooled in the law than me have said that there's no way to get these guys out of public schools if they want to be there.

[backscatter712]

23. Here's another legal strategy. Schools can prohibit abuse & discrimination in their facilities.

Linkage: http://www.intrinsicdignity.com/

Specifically, there's a pdf at the link to a model Acceptable Use policy that schools should apply to after-school clubs that want to use their facilities.

The most interesting part:

1. Good Behavior Requirement. No person, group or organization shall be permitted to use a district facility if they:
a) engage in physical, emotional, or psychological mistreatment of children;
b) attempt to make children feel excluded, ashamed or unacceptable because of the student’s lack of shared racial, ethnic, or national origin, sexual orientation, or religious identity or commitment;2
c) discourage children from critical and open thinking by employing shame, conditional affirmation, or fear of natural or supernatural reprisal; or
d) stigmatize children on the basis of race, color, religion, creed, ancestry, age, sex, sexual orientation, physical handicap or national origin.3

This means if the Good News Club starts teaching kids to commit genocide using the Bible story of the Amalekites, or they start teaching shame, or that they're evil scum that deserve death unless they submit to Jesus, that sort of thing, the principal can tell them to knock it off or get out.

There's the current legal strategy. In other words, you can't just throw the Good News Clubs out for no reason, but you can nerf their curriculum.

[SpartanDem]

26. That's pretty good

so is this actually being use to get these people to stop their nuttiness?

[backscatter712]

28. Eric Cernyar, who's an attorney that is working with Dawkins and Stewart, is doing this.

He's distributing these model Acceptable Use policies to teachers, school officials, and parents interested in kicking religious abuse out of public schools.

[IrishAyes]

45. Sounds like a plan

But when you get to actual operation, what do you do when all the local school officials don't have a spare brain cell among them? Let me tell you something - people in RedNeckLand, no matter where it exists, don't give a fig about ethics or even about what might actually be their personal spiritual duty to God or the rest of mankind. ALL they care about is power - getting their own way no matter who squawks.

Even if a school superintendant objected and tried to stand against the pitchfork mob, his job and maybe his life wouldn't last long. Someone more pliable would be put in place and the rampage against the innocent would continue. At least by the time they had any dissidents pinned to the wallboard if not worse, then they'd start on each other. If you think most of the fundies consider Catholics to be Christian, you've got another think coming. I identify as Christian, but I'm liberal enough they all consider me a heretic. I'd bet my own life that if you scratch the surface of any fundie, you'll find American Taliban underneath. That's all they are - terrorists. Some day a lot of people will have more to answer for than they can imagine.

Left unchecked, this could prove the spark of open civil war. There are already people in this flyspeck town where I retired with that gleam of mob madness in their eyes. All they're waiting for is enough public affirmation and stockpiled weapons to 'take this country back for Jesus!' Then God help anyone in their way. Their hearts are full of nothing but hate and bloodlust.

I seldom pass up a chance to point that I don't believe in having secular politics at church or religion of any sort in the schools. Just that and standing fast on Democratic principles has already brought death threats, which the authorities dismiss lightly as being fully justifiable under free speech. If and when they actually kill you, call us and THEN we MIGHT take a report.

Long story short, it's not the atheists I'm worried about.

[SpartanDem]

24. Wrong. Read your own article

"He said the option of closing elementary schools to all outside groups, while permissible under the ruling, would not often prove a practical or attractive one."

Of course, the very fact that schools will be very reluctant to close off outside groups is something in these people's favor.

[backscatter712]

25. Some schools have done that.

In some cases, it's the only option to keep the batshit out.

Though I'm more in favor of the strategy in my last post - telling these groups they are not allowed to emotionally or psychologically abuse children by teaching them to commit genocide, or teaching them that they are evil scum that deserve death unless they come to Jesus.

[nonoyes]

27. Firstly, that is not "my own article" nor is it written by a man.

It is an opinion of a law school journalist in 2001. And LINDA GREENHOUSE is a woman.

Recent interpretations of the law in several other challenges have endorsed the ultimate right of the religious groups to unfettered free speech.

Can you imagine a school without Brownies, or Cub Scouts? Let's be realistic.

[SpartanDem]

29. It's a quote in the article you linked to

What did you think I was talking about?

[nonoyes]

32. I think you don't read nor post very accurately

So tell me, how and where are these evangelistic groups blocked from prostheletizing their sick message to kids, all able to do so in our public schools for the last 12 years.

[cbayer]

12. One more thing - I can't watch the video because of my location, but I did take the time

to do some reading.

[nonoyes]

15. Happy to know you are investigating this.

There are several other non-video links available on this issue.

There are a few books about this topic, and dozens of newspaper articles on this.

[cbayer]

16. Yes, I know. I posted links to several in my first response to this OP.

[Thats my opinion]

17. I looked at the video and have several reactions.

1-to use public school facilities, janitor services, heat and light I believe is a clear violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. There are, however, lots of different groups that rent school facilities after school hours, at no cost to the schools, that seem to have legal legitimacy.

2-The religion being laid on these children is appalling! These kids are scarred forever by that sort of stuff.
Recent surveys, however, indicate that that sort of terrible fundamentalism has reached its zenith and is now on a slowly descending slide.

3-"Americans United for Separation of Church and State" is the one organization that confront this problem and tries to find ways around the 2001 Supreme Court decision. I have been a supporter of this organization since its beginning. It was started by a group of religious leaders. Barry Lynn, the Executive Director, (who is featured in the video) is a Christian minister, as are most of the Board.

4-It is up to both religious and secular leaders in our communities to demonstrate against what these people are doing to children--as well as ways in which they violate the state/church divide. Liberal religion is organized to take this fight on. What other non-religious groups anyone knows about are also in the struggle?

[backscatter712]

21. Here's another video - a mini-presentation about the lessons taught in Good News Clubs.

[rrneck]

30. Religion is cool.

[backscatter712]

31. On one t-shirt from last week that made me laugh:

"Religion: Together, we can find the cure."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

33. Lots of people walk away from xtianity because it crushes your self-esteem and your soul.

Others just don't know any better. They tolerate verbal abuse by a preacher.

[cbayer]

34. And yet others find that it nurtures them and makes them better people.

Variety of experience and perspective is what makes humans so endlessly fascinating.

[backscatter712]

35. I agree - some of the core teachings of Christianity are toxic, to be blunt.

Like I said in the OP, the doctrine of original sin, and the consequential sinful nature of mankind is this kind of nasty toxic theology.

By this doctrine, you're not allowed to have any self-esteem at all. You're required by your religion to see yourself as a horrible, depraved, despicable, wholly unworthy and innately evil person, and the only esteem you're allowed is what you're granted by God or the religious authorities, which is conditional on how much Kool-Aid you drink.

Christianity - inflicting clinical depression and dependence on the approval of religious authority on its members since the days of the Nicean Council.

[cbayer]

36. Original sin is not a concept shared by most mainline protestant denominations.

[backscatter712]

37. It's what I was taught when I was a kid. I grew up going to a mainline Presbyterian church.

John Calvin and his followers all held to Original Sin, and the protestant denominations derived from Calvinism hold to original sin in at least some of their history.

[cbayer]

38. When I was a kid, the only people I knew who were

Taught that were Catholics.

[skepticscott]

40. Why do you always assume

that your personal experiences define reality? You didn't see or experience something, therefore it's not the case.

[backscatter712]

42. The concept of original sin and the sinful nature of man is common in Protestant denominations.

Of course, YMMV - some Baptist traditions have moved away from these doctrines, but on the whole, they're pretty widespread.

[cbayer]

47. Do you have a list of those that do and those that don't?

Without data, I am not sure how your can call it common.

[backscatter712]

48. Not on me. (Edit, found some info)

I can just give you the example of the denomination I was raised in, which is pretty large.

Scratch that, I found a page with several big denominations, which ALL believe in original sin.

http://christianity.about.com/od/denominationscomparison/ss/comparebeliefs2.htm

Yeah, I'd call it common. I never did assert it was a universal belief, but a lot of mainstream Protestant denominations of Christianity do teach original sin as part of their dogma.

[cbayer]

49. Thanks. I was having trouble finding any list at all.

That's a substantial but certainly not all inclusive list. I would love it if someone who actually had some data on this would chime in, because I am having a hell of a time trying to find something definitive.

Wikipedia lists only:

2.1 Roman Catholicism
2.2 Eastern Orthodoxy
2.3 Anglicanism
2.4 Methodism
2.5 Seventh-day Adventism
2.6 Jehovah's Witnesses
2.7 Latter Day Saint movement
2.8 Swedenborgianism

[trotsky]

64. I was raised ELCA Lutheran, and original sin is part of its dogma.

Don't know if you'll believe me or not.

[arcane1]

68. Calvinism still has deep roots in American culture and identity n/t

[skepticscott]

39. Well, let's see

Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Congregationalists all recognize the concept of original sin. Exactly what "mainline" protestant denominations were you talking about as "most"? Or did you just make that up because it sounded nice?

[trotsky]

41. It was in the mainline Protestant church I grew up in.

It astonishes me how many universal pronouncements you make concerning things you are so ignorant about. And then follow it up by chiding others for simply relating what they've experienced.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

43. I go through this argument all the time on DU.

A Christian will say that "most christians" or "some christians" don't believe in original sin.

I find that impossible to believe.

Christianity consists of two necessary premises: If you are a Christian you believe that Jesus is the Messiah. That you believe in original sin as a starting premise, and substitutionary atonement as the necessary sequel to the original sin.

If you don't believe in original sin, then you don't need to have Jesus die for your sins. The only Christians I can think of that would qualify would be Universalists who believe in universal salvation. They were merged with the Unitarians, who believed in one god, in 1961.

Nowadays, the Unitarian-Universalists do not explicitly say they are Christian. They are a non-creedal religion, which means they cannot officially be Christian. See my explanation above.
Christians also argue with me that they don't have to recite a creed, which is false. If they didn't recite what they believe, they wouldn't be Christians.

UUs are generally atheists, agnostics, pagan or just wondering and want a community to hang out with that is not forcing anyone to believe anything.

www.uua.org

I would like cbayer to show us a Christian denomination that does not believe in original sin, as it is the very essence of Christian doctrine and belief.

[cbayer]

46. Wow, I didn't know I was dealing with the definitive word on christianity here.

Two necessary premises? According to who? You?

That may be the way you were raised, but I was raised in a mainstream christian denomination and I was never taught anything about original sin. And most of my friends were raised in one mainstream christian denomination or another, and none of them were taught that. So you can star with the one I was raised in - Disciples of Christ

[Manifestor_of_Light]

50. I looked up the disciples of christ confession of faith.

It is no different than any other christian church in its basic premises--that Jesus is the son of god and saves us from sin.

You got nothin'.

[cbayer]

51. I got nothing? Where did you see something about original sin there?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

52. The part about Jesus being the Savior.

We wouldn't need to be saved if it wasn't for original sin.

Substitutionary atonement. Do you have problems with logic?

I know of no christian church that does NOT subscribe to original sin, from which it follows that "Jesus died for our sins" which were committed by Adam and Eve.

[cbayer]

53. That's not logical at all. There are all kinds of sin and many are taught

that children are born completely innocent and free from all sin. The sinning comes later.

Why the insults?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

54. I'm using their logic, not my logic.

Infants that are not baptised that die go to Limbo, supposedly, according to the Catholics.

They are guilty of original sin because they were conceived through sin, which is defined by Christians as "sexual intercourse". So God is a crooked prosecutor. He hits everyone with a rap they don't deserve, because of two fruit-munching simpletons in a fairy tale.

I'm not insulting anyone. I think Christian doctrine insults and demeans people by telling them they are hopelessly sinful if they are not saved by the substitutionary atonement by Jesus.

So everyone needs to be saved from original sin by substitutionary atonement by Jesus, because we are all conceived through sexual intercourse.

If there is no original sin, you don't need Jesus as your savior. And you don't need to be baptised either. Every christian denom I know of states that a person must be baptised or born again, in order to be saved from original sin.

What is "many are taught"?? Void for vagueness. Please reread the above. No, it's not logical but it's consistent if you accept the starting premise.

Christians think everybody else is going to hell. Especially Jews.

[cbayer]

55. Again, you are basing all your assumptions on a limited knowledge of different denominations.

There is no question that catholics believe in original sin. But were you aware that some denominations don't baptize until kids have reached adolescence or even adulthood? And they don't feel the need to because they believe that children are basically free of sin.

Your argument is faulty in that you conflate all sin with original sin and the beliefs of some christians with all christians.

And stating that christians think everyone else, especially Jews are going to hell is particularly laughable.

You may need to look a little more closely at some of the denominations which you appear to know nothing about. Could be quite an eye opener. Your broad brush statements based on what appears to be your limited experience is both judgmental and prejudiced - more so than most religious people I know.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

56. Citations needed. Back up your statements.

"I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father except by me."
John 14: 6

From christiananswers.net:
5.
The man Christ Jesus, alone of all men who ever lived, maintained in every respect a life of perfect holiness and full obedience to the Father, thus demonstrating that He was the God-Man. He then died for the sins of all men and thus can offer full pardon and His own nature of perfect holiness to anyone who receives Him.

Christ alone offers salvation by grace alone, to be received only through faith in Him.

To the one who truly believes on Him, He then gives through the Holy Spirit a new nature, enabling that one to live a life pleasing to God.


There is no mere “religion” in all the world like this. Jesus Christ is the world's Creator, and its only true Redeemer.


“Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
----------------------------------

[cbayer]

57. christiananswers.net?

Well that explains a lot about where you are coming from on this.

It's been nice talking to you.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

58. What's your source?

You got some specifics? I've given you specifics. What denomination are you talking about?

I already looked up the one example you gave, the Confession of Faith of the Disciples of Christ.

You haven't answered me.

[IrishAyes]

62. Bingo!

Good for you. Especially your last sentence. Some people simply are unwilling to acknowledge another's right to hold different beliefs that harm no one and help many. I was taught that we're supposed to love people, and that has to start with respect. When it comes to Jews, we are grafted onto their tree, not vice verse. Jesus was (probably still is) a Jew, and so was Mary. True, I'm a left-leaning Catholic, but we're not as monolithic as some would imagine. American Catholic practice for instance is far closer to Anglicans than to Rome. We like the Pope, we listen when he speaks, then we go ahead and live as we ourselves believe regardless of who likes it or not.

[cbayer]

63. I was raised similarly to you - respect other's beliefs or lack of beliefs as long

as they don't harm others. I was never told that anyone was going to hell because they believed differently. My experience with catholics has been very much as you describe.

Welcome to the religion group.

[Thats my opinion]

65. Original sin is a made-up doctrine.You Will never hear about it in most liberal churches--never!

The substitutionary theory of the atonement is a 11th century creation by Anselm of Canterbury. It is one of the most despicable doctrines ever devised. It hinges on the notion that God is an English gentleman who could not look on and was offended by sin, and wasn't happy until a sinless person was sacrificed.--who happened, in the myth. to be his son.

That is Moloch incarnate at best and child abuse at worst. Most modern theology books have long since discarded it--as did I in my systematic theology written twenty years ago---and is not out of print, lest I be accused, as usual of hustling my stuff.

[Curmudgeoness]

59. You say you were never taught about original sin.

Were you taught about Adam and Eve, and the forbidden fruit? That was Original Sin. I was raised Presbyterian, and I will agree that I did not hear the term "original sin" constantly, but I was taught about Adam and Eve, the serpent, the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, and being cast out of the Garden of Eden. It doesn't really matter if the church pounded the term into your head, or just the concept.

[cbayer]

60. I was taught bible stories as metaphors and lessons for living.

I don't recall ever hearing the words "original sin" until I got to know some catholic kids and the concept was completely foreign to me. IIRC, the whole forbidden fruit thing was just about sinning in general and the consequences of not doing the right thing.

At any rate, nothing was apparently pounded in my head because the concept that babies are born with some kind of sin attached to them is completely foreign and ridiculous to me.

[Thats my opinion]

66. It's a story! nt

[Curmudgeoness]

67. You're preaching to the choir.

I realize that it is just a story......it just seems odd that a believer does not understand or know about "original sin", even as a story.

[Dawson Leery]

61. George W. Bush's DOJ worked on behalf of these bastards.

Worst President ever!