Religion
Related: About this forumOnly 14, Bangladeshi girl charged with adultery was lashed to death
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/29/bangladesh.lashing.death/index.htmlHena dropped after 70.
Bloodied and bruised, she was taken to hospital, where she died a week later.
But hey...why should atheists be angry? That just carries water for the fundies, right?
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)the deeply and sincerely religious folk around her were determined to do gawd's will.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Yes it matters, even Westboro Baptist Church does not flog children.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)So yes indeed we have advanced far beyond the bangladeshis.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Look at it from a formal risk management approach...
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Punishment for adultery, death.
Ah I know, ancient history, old testament, not quite straw, but too distant.
1641, Mary Latham executed for adultery, not far from where I write this. Closer? Still want to hold to it is just those other religions?
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)though there certainly are other ways to read
IIRC rabbinical Judaism has not allowed a death penalty for adultery for about two thousand years now
The early Christian communities rather frowned upon adultery, but they did not prescribe death as the sanctions:
The Council of Elvira, ca. 306
47. If a baptized married man commits adultery repeatedly, he is to be asked as he nears death whether or not he will reform should he recover. If he so promises, he may receive communion. If he recovers and commits adultery again, he may not commune again, even as death approaches ...
The case of Mary Latham in Puritan New England, half a millennium ago, perhaps illustrateswhy the Puritans were so unpopular in early modern Europe and why they were encouraged to go bugger off to colonize a distant and largely unknown continent across the seas
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)the islamic version. And your claim that they are is flawed.
Adultery is but one aspect. Until the mid 18th century grotesque cruelty was the norm for punishment for all crimes, religious crimes were numerous and punished routinely by appallingly cruel executions. We've gotten better in the west, at least as far as grotesque cruelty and religious crimes are concerned, but we all came from more or less the same place, and not that long ago.
England retained capital punishment for sodomy until 1861, Massachusetts retained its colonial era death penalty for sodomy until 1822. South Carolina, 1878.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)of "the abrahamic religions"
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)People, including fundamentalist Christians, administer punishment that harms and can kill children in the name of gawd.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Its a basic risk management calculation...
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Like the child in this case, they can only be killed once. Often enough for you? Was her "risk" well managed?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)rabid_byter
(40 posts)not a common occurrence, but here it is,
check out the smiles..
http://warmlittlepond.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/girl-beaten-to-death-by-evangelical-christian-parents/
the doctors said they have only seen injuries like that in car wrecks and airplane crashes..
http://www.secularnewsdaily.com/2010/02/christian-parents-biblically-beat-child-to-death-for-mispronouncing-word/
http://www.examiner.com/article/another-child-s-death-linked-to-pearls-and-to-train-up-a-child
i thought my father was going to beat me to death a couple times when i was a small child, my first memory is him complaining about how bad his hand hurt after beating me to the ground. i got so pissed off at him having bully's tease about welts in gym showers.. when i was 13 he was coming at me with a razor strop, he was a barber, i picked up a piece of pipe leaning against the garage and told him if he hit me again i'd kill him in his sleep.. he backed up and didn't speak to me hardly for 15 years till he was nearly dead from cancer, he said he was sorry, and ashamed. a couple months later he died in my arms.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)how utterly sickening and sad.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)May she rest in peace.
get the red out
(13,466 posts)NONE AT ALL.
I DESPISE barbaric people like this and their hateful religion. People who think like this are lower than maggots.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)How can a book and tradition skew your view of people, especially women, to the point that it makes it ok to do this type of thing to someone. It blows my fucking mind.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:42 PM - Edit history (1)
the High Court has declared illegal in Bangladesh:
Bangladesh High Court declares 'fatwa' punishment illegal
July 09, 2010
Another issue is the apparent sexist double-standard according to which women and men are differently judged:
Bangladeshi family tells of grief over girl whipped to death
Fariha Karim
Friday 4 February 2011 15.13 EST
A third issue, probably involved here, is small town politics:
Only 14, Bangladeshi girl charged with adultery was lashed to death
By Farid Ahmed and Moni Basu, CNN
March 29, 2011 7:09 p.m. EDT
Bangladesh whipping case: three doctors investigated for claiming teenage girl had no signs of injury
Second autopsy on body of Hena Akhter, 14, found multiple wounds 'of a homicidal nature'
Fariha Karim in Dhaka
Thursday 10 February 2011 12.04 EST
Bangladesh doctors to be prosecuted over lashing report
28 March 2011 Last updated at 09:01 ET
By Anbarasan Ethirajan BBC News, Dhaka
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Yes, we know...it's complex.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:44 PM - Edit history (2)
If you like, of course, I can lay out my prejudices clearly before proceeding further: (1) I oppose the death penalty; (1) I oppose corporal punishments (such as beatings and lashing); (3) I oppose extrajudicial "justice"; and (4) I oppose traditions and social views that treat men and women according to a double-standard
The story here seems to be that a fourteen year-old in a tiny Bangladeshi village was beaten to death for "adultery" after being raped by a cousin, who himself seems to have escaped any significant punishment. Although this extrajudicial punishment was illegal under Bangladeshi law, her parents themselves apparently knowingly delivered her into the hands of the people who beat her to death. Several local doctors then performed an "autopsy," finding that she had no serious injuries and concluding that she had committed suicide. Her parents were shocked by the violent events and complained, obtaining a second autopsy (that determined death had resulted from homocidal injuries). A court judgment, ordering prosecution of the doctors responsible for the original coverup, followed. Beyond that, my quick search has not yielded further information
It would be informative to learn whether anyone was prosecuted, but I have not been able to determine that
It is not quite clear to me why you choose to portray my attempt to provide such additional details as "apologetics" or why you want to put words in my mouth. I naturally suspect that you are trying to relieve your ennui by provoking some silly reaction, but I consider that whole avenue a crashing bore: why not just stop playing these silly accusatory games? You know perfectly well you will find at DU absolutely no one who believes it is OK to beat another person, let alone beating a woman to death as an "adultress" when she was in fact a rape victim and when the "sentence" was an extrajudicial judgment contrary to law
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)plenty of people here who find religiously motivated behavior such as this entirely rational and who will argue that no one should be criticized for "deeply held beliefs", which the perpetrators of this murder clearly have and were acting in accordance with. As well as people who think "angry" atheists are only hurting their cause.
And I guess you must have talked to everyone at DU, and verified their truthfulness (by Google search, no doubt), or at least read their minds, to know that "absolutely no one" believes a certain thing. Yet more apologetics and deflection...not surprising that your "prejudices" and subsequent comments omit any mention whatsoever of the religious motivation underlying this girl's murder.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 03:25 PM - Edit history (1)
http://dawn.com/2011/05/30/fatal-whipping-exposes-bangladeshs-fatwa-crimesAFP | 30th May, 2011
Khan and the seven-member village council who issued the fatwa have been arrested and are awaiting trial and Henas family have been given 24-hour police protection after receiving death threats ...
Access to justice is so limited outside of the capital Dhaka that up to 80 per cent of disputes are resolved by village councils which are known as shalish said Falzul Huq of the Madaripur Legal Aid Association ...
In Henas case, the village council that issued the fatwa included the wife of her rapist and his sister-in-law but no one with even basic training in Islamic law, leading human rights lawyer Sara Hossain told AFP ...
So perhaps we may add another issue: lack of access to the regular justice system in tiny rural villages
Meshuga
(6,182 posts)A good friend of mine is highly involved in Bangladesh's politics and his biggest complaint was the fact that the US (at least during Bush's administration) favored the fundamentalist non-democratic Muslim party (over the Secular Muslim Party) since the fundies were easier to deal with in getting American companies in Bangladesh to extract natural gas. In short, a non-democratic fundamentalist regime that imposes insanity onto the population took power and held on to power at the time since the situation was favorable to us financially.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)see my #60
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)There are a few people on DU who may object to all criticisms of other countries, especially perhaps Muslim countries, because they equate it with 'beating the drums for war' and wishing to bomb these countries. I emphatically disagree with this view, which in any case is rare on DU; but it's not the same as saying that violence and murder are justified if due to religious beliefs.
Obviously, I don't know the views of every single person who has ever joined DU; but I can't think of any who have justified this sort of action.
There is a difference between advocating tolerance for different religious beliefs, and advocating tolerance for every possible action that might be motivated by religious beliefs. Just as with any other sort of belief.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)You avoid the root of the problem; all caused by religious belief.
You can continue to elevate your own self above the heathens in Bangladesh if that makes you feel better, but it in no way avoids the central problem here: religion.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)rather than to me, who did not use the word?
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)tragic incident(s) are duly noted.
Admitting there is a problem is the toughest step. I wish you luck in one day perhaps making that step.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)may work for while, it is not an acknowledgment of the problem nor does it offer solutions. Instead, it diverts attention away from the real problem and onto the insecurities of the willfully ignorant.
Good luck with that. I hope it turns out as you expect.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)who is interested to obtain more information
So far you have provided nothing but an irrelevant link to a commercial website selling one of the Pearls' idiotic self-published books
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Be as obtuse as you feel you need to be.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)a synthesis of the information, in response to which you merely sling insults: "sticking one's head in the sand" and "obtuse" and so on
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)that he is so committed to trashing everything that has a religious perspective that he is totally intolerant of any other position. There is a name for that.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Do you believe these murderers were at least partially motivated by their religion?
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)and here is one example. When any religious fundamentalism gets involved in a severe right wing political movement, there is grief all around. That sort of religion must be held to account!
Personal attacks? Everything I have written in over two years has been responded to with a personal attack by the same small group. if I said the 'sun comes up in the East', I would be attacked--often by name. Take your remark and suggest it to a few others.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)to explain why exactly you think "none of us" would want to live in a society without religious ethics, even one that didn't forcibly remove them but just didn't have them. Each time you've run away rather than address that question.
After you've slammed non-believers like that and have even doubled-down on the sentiment, why are you surprised many of them still don't trust you or even like you?
Maybe you can just admit you were wrong, that there would be nothing fundamentally wrong with a society lacking a religious ethical foundation. That would go a long way toward improving your reputation.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Oh please...you have a persecution complex in spades, Charles. Your posts have been criticized frequently, with facts and logical arguments in rebuttal, because they are frequently wrong, bigoted or hypocritical. As has been pointed out to you countless times, criticism of your posts does not equate to a "personal attack". Yes, we all know you'd like nothing but responses along the lines of "What a wonderful, profound post, Charles..i couldn't agree more" or even "I have to disagree just a tiny bit, but i deeply respect the wonderfullness of your different opinion", but that's not going to happen...not with the things you post, anyway, and not outside your gaggle of ivory tower academics.
And since you're arrogant enough to sign your posts with your name, replies to your posts often refer to you in the same way. Calling you by name is not the same as calling you names, Charles..do you need to be reminded of that as well?
okasha
(11,573 posts)to this terrible tragedy is the fatwa. Even there, we don't know whether the so-called imam is a fanatic or a moral coward afraid of his violent neighbors.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 03:27 PM - Edit history (1)
http://world.time.com/2011/07/11/gender-justice-is-bangladesh-ignoring-fatwa-violence-against-women/By Emily Rauhala
July 11, 2011
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:40 PM - Edit history (1)
electricity or running water, a mile or more from the nearest paved road. As is the case in much of the world, traditional attitudes offer women only low status and few rights
The Bangladeshi High Court has ruled that it is illegal for village counsels to enforce punishments such as beatings. But access to Bangladesh's justice system can be difficult for persons who do not live in the main cities; the current backlog in the courts amounts to two million cases or more; and so villagers still usually resort to village counsels to resolve disputes
Hena Akhter's father had complained on several occasions to local police about her cousin's harassment of her, and he had even obtained a monetary judgment against the cousin, but it was never paid. Subsequently, her cousin raped her; his wife blamed the girl for the rape; and the wife and her sister both served on the village counsel that met at the cousin's house and ordered the lashing punishment, together with a monetary judgment against her father, about the same size as the judgment he had originally obtained against the cousin after the earlier complaint. Although the rapist was also sentenced to be lashed, he was released after only several blows
This exhibits characteristics of a small town revenge lynching: persons with definite interests in the case help engineer the outcome, including the effective cancellation of the earlier judgment with a comparable reverse judgment and the convenient death of the inconvenient victimized girl. The small town political clout of the rapist is demonstrated by the first "autopsy" findings that the girl committed suicide -- an all-too-familiar characteristic of small town lynchings, even in the US. It is, of course, useful for the lynch mob to appeal to religious issues in justifying their own actions, but the material motives seem obvious enough
Only 14, Bangladeshi girl charged with adultery was lashed to death
By Farid Ahmed and Moni Basu, CNN
March 29, 2011 7:09 p.m. EDT
When being a woman is a crime
Irfan Husain | 12th February, 2011
Bangladesh: Fatwa Killing Sparks High Court Inquiry, Directives
(Feb 17, 2011)
United Nations Development Programme: Bangladesh
trotsky
(49,533 posts)This happened in Bangladesh. Your apologetics are getting very strained.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)Every group has law breakers who use their metaphysics for immoral purposes.
I even recall athiest communists used ideology to put an ice pick into the skull of man who had taken asylum in Mexico and wasn't a threat to anyone. Should we then extrapolate from that a universal conclusion about all Marxist-Lenninists?
This was a crime.
No religion supports the actions according to the facts presented here anymore than any real religion supports Westboro Baptist Church.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Does atheism have a book of rules that says certain people should be killed or punished?
Christianity does. So does Islam. (Nice use of the NTS fallacy at the end, BTW!)
(BTW, as I have pointed out other times, my username has nothing to do with the historical Trotsky. But a noble effort nonetheless.)
grantcart
(53,061 posts)aggressive hostility to people who follow religious faith is quite evident.
The acts in the OP were criminal acts. They are not supported by any religion. Holding a collective group responsible for the criminal acts of an individual is simply a position of prejudice.
Although I am not a Christian I have read the New Testament in both English and Greek and the statement Christianity has a "book of rules ... that says certain people should be killed or punished" is as ignorant a statement on Christianity as I have ever read.
But this comes from a person who takes a certain delight in making condescending remarks when people make an obvious connection to a very famous political name on a political discussion board when they have some apparently obscure reference that they keep as an inside joke.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)So be it.
True or false: the Christian bible contains passages that proscribe specific punishments for certain offenses.
Answer that, and we'll proceed. If you think you can refrain from insulting me, that is. Your position must be awfully weak to have to lash out at me personally so dramatically.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)This really is the terminology of a Junior High Schooler trying to sound relevant.
I don't insult you, I simply reveal your bigotry and you feel it is an insult.
You are an uninformed bigot.
You objectify and dislike people who follow a religious faith and feel justified to castigate and hate them.
The book commonly referred to as the Bible is a collection of books divided into two parts, the Old Testament which incorporates various Jewish books and the New Testament which the Christians believe records a more complete revelation. If you want to make yourself feel righteous by quoting something from Leviticus and feel that means something to Christian faith or practice then knock yourself out if that makes you feel better, but it is nothing more than metaphysical self pleasuring.
At one point Jesus is approached to comment on his interpretation of the rules laid out in the early Pentateuch (which already had been superseded by the profits like Isaiah) and here was his response:
Gospel of Matthew
"Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Matthew 22:35-40
[edit] Gospel of Mark
In the Gospel of Mark, the Shema is included:
"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:28-31
[edit] The Gospel of Luke
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
Luke 10:25-28
This is the definitive, seminal, particular, discrete and comprehensive teaching of Jesus on "religious rules".
Your biblical methodology, ironically, is a mirror image of the most uneducated fundamentalist. In both cases you think you know what the ancient writing says and in both cases you go on a hunt to find a particular passage that you think reinforces your point and consider yourself informed. It is an intellectually lazy and superficial approach to any literature.
My antithesis to you is a direct result of your aggressive anti Islamic bigotry. Up thread Struggles4Progress was very patient with you pointing out the logical fallacy of asserting condemnation of a billion followers of Islam because of the criminal acts of a dozen. But you persisted, really beyond all reason in a level of aggressive tenacity that shows just how deeply rooted these expressions of hatred have.
Having seen that patience didn't have an impact on you why should I take that approach again.
But having an impact on you is not my objective. I just don't want others who come by to think the views you express are widely held here or that there is such a superficial reading of ancient religious texts.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Because I don't need to. Facts are on my side.
Neither I, nor anyone else in this thread, is condemning "a billion followers of Islam because of the criminal acts of a dozen."
What I and others are pointing out is that those dozen WERE inspired, and motivated by, their religion's teachings. You may argue that they weren't following the "true" teachings of Islam but guess what: a sizeable portion of those billion Muslims are going to disagree with you. THAT'S the nature of religion. Division and disagreement are just as common (if not more) than peace and harmony.
Same with what's found in the bible. Like it or not, there are passages that quite clearly instruct people to punish others, sometimes with death. And some Christians (yep, they are Christians just as much as MLK was, just a different kind) even today want to follow those guidelines and execute homosexuals, adulterers, or atheists like myself. They truly believe they are following their god, their religion. When you can convince them they're wrong, then come back and lecture me.
Since the rest of your post is just more insults and straw men, I don't feel a need to address anything else.
Religion CAN be responsible for people doing good things. It CAN ALSO be responsible for people doing bad things.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Bangladesh was, of course, part of Pakistan until the early 1970s
Bangladeshi High Court Prohibits Fatwas To Impose Punishment
First Posted: 07/13/10 02:25 PM ET Updated: 05/25/11 06:00 PM ET
Bangladesh apex court bans fatwa as punishment
Last Updated: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 14:15
ON EDIT: IN SEVERAL OF MY POSTS UPTHREAD I HAVE MADE THE REPLACEMENT "PAKISTANI =>> BANGLADESHI" AFTER DOUBLE-CHECKING FOR ACCURACY: ONE SENTENCE HAS BEEN REMOVED; AND SEVERAL LINKS HAVE BEEN ADDED TO CLARIFY THAT THE RULING AGAINST EXTRAJUDICIAL PUNISHMENT WAS IN FACT A RULING BY THE BANGLADESHI HIGH COURT
trotsky
(49,533 posts)the fatwas continue. Almost as if those carrying them out were doing so out of allegiance to something other than the laws of their country. Like their religious beliefs.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Hena Akhter was raped by her cousin, Mehbub Khan, after which Khan's wife imprisoned the girl in their house and abused her further for about twenty four hours, before organizing an extrajudicial village "court" that met in the Khan house, that included Khan's wife and Khan's sister-in-law, and that illegally "sentenced" the girl to a beating that resulted in her death, after which several local doctors examined the body and claimed that they found no significant injuries, concluding the girl had committed suicide
On the other hand, you provide no links whatsoever, nor do you provide any coherent account of the actual events leading to the girl's death, but merely seize upon the word fatwa that appears in some news stories. If you can build a coherent case for your view, based on such facts, as might be actually available to us, why not do so?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Your fictional version of events can't explain one glaring fact. Can you figure out what it is?
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)why not do so?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)When your story can account for ALL of them, not just the one's you've cherry-picked to craft your tale of religious apologia, then maybe you will be taken seriously.
Til then, read more from the Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/03/bangladesh-clerics-arrested-after-girl-whipped
The clerics were accused of ordering Mosammet Hena, 14, to receive 100 lashes in a fatwa, or religious edict, at a village in south-western Shariatpur district, the area's police chief, AKM Shahidur Rahman, said. The area is 35 miles from the capital, Dhaka.
Fatwas are illegal in Bangladesh, but Islamic clerics sometimes preside over courts that use sharia law and issue fatwas to deal with issues such as extramarital relationships.
Rahman said the girl collapsed after she was lashed in public with a bamboo cane about 70 times on Monday. She was taken to a hospital where she died the same day.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)(1) the arrest of four muslim clerics
(2) the beating of the girl with a bamboo cane
(3) the death of the girl the same day
Yours is an early report, dating from only a few days after her burial. Later reports, however, that I have linked in this thread
(1) do not mention "four clerics" but rather one "imam"
(2) do not mention beating with a bamboo rod but rather beating with a knotted wet cloth, and
(3) do not indicate the girl died the same day but rather a week later
These multiple conflicts with later reports suggest this early report should be regarded as unreliable
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That those who punished her did so because of their religious beliefs.
You can copy & paste all you want from Google to try and defend the bigoted notion that no true religious person could ever do a bad deed, but it won't work.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Bangladesh doctors to be prosecuted over lashing report
By Anbarasan Ethirajan BBC News, Dhaka
28 March 2011 Last updated at 09:01 ET
Bangladesh village shaken after lashed girl's death
By Ethirajan Anbarasan BBC News, Chamta Village, Shariatpur
9 February 2011 Last updated at 12:01 ET
Bangladesh girl bled to death after lashing say doctors
9 February 2011 Last updated at 09:36 ET
Four arrested after Bangladesh girl 'lashed to death'
By Anbarasan Ethirajan BBC News, Dhaka
2 February 2011 Last updated at 06:57 ET
Cleric held after Bangladesh teen whipped to death
AFP | 2nd February, 2011
okasha
(11,573 posts)It appears that the Bangladeshi government responded appropriately to this atrocity. Is there more recent information available in re: the outcome of the arrests?
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Response to okasha (Reply #35)
Post removed
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)if there had BEEN no religiously motivated atrocity in the first place? Then no response, appropriate or otherwise, would have been required.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)by laying out, as clearly as possible, a detailed description of the events supporting your interpretation
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)"The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public."
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)or "village arbitration" composing local leaders. It is clear that a local teacher Saidur Rahman and a local "imam" Mafiz Uddin wreinvolved, and according to some reports Mafiz was subsequently arrested. I provide a link for that below. I can't determine exactly their relationship to any of the principles in the case
Judged from satellite images, Chamta seems a pretty small place; and since it lacks electricity, running water, and paved roads, it's not terribly prosperous, so there's unlikely to be any professional/salaried religious class there. In the context of Chamta, imam may signify nothing more than some local person regularly chosen to lead prayers, and it probably does not imply much religious training. Similarly fatwa is usually used in connection with scholarly religious rulings, whereas here the term might be used to describe an utterance by a probably untrained local prayer leader, or (to judge from local press) simply "the extrajudicial punishments pronounced by 'makeshift village arbitrations.'" My immediate conclusion from these considerations is that careless usage of words such as imam or fatwa may not be contributing much to the discussion and may actually be misleading: for all I know, these words were added by the various reporters
It's quite possible to imagine a coherent story here with no religious overtones: Mehbub returns home from his trip to Malaysia, flush with cash, and is a big man and world traveler in the eyes of folk in Chamta. He takes a liking to his cousin Hena and harasses her regularly, until her father complains to police and gets a sizable judgment against him (which is never paid). This irritates Mehbub, his wife Shilpi, and their immediate families. But Mehbub still wants Hena and finally sexually assaults her. Shilpi interrupts this assault but blames Hena; she drags the girl back to her house and beats the crap out of the kid for a day, then summons the village elders back to her house to render judgment. Naturally, she does not accuse Mehbub of rape: instead, she accuses her niece of being a little bitch temptress who has seduced her husband away from his life of connubial bliss. Meeting in Shilpi's house, the village elders, with the help of Shilpi and her sister, decide Hena deserves punishment for this and provide a substantial lashing sentence, as well as a hefty monetary judgment against her father (which conveniently cancels the prior judgment he obtained against Mehbub); Mehbub also earns a lashing sentence, but it is to be administered by his own father, and he somehow immediately escapes. Hena, on the other hand, who has been raped, and then beaten for twenty four hours by her angry aunt, now faces a real whopping, and she succumbs to it. Since Mehbub and his family have real political or economic clout in the village, several doctors are easily persuaded to rule Hena's death a suicide
Bangladeshi family tells of grief over girl whipped to death
February 6, 2011
Fariha Karim
Shariatpur fatwa case accused still at large
Main suspect in Hena killing held
Re-autopsy report submitted
Hena Whipped to Death
2 accused denied bail
Thursday, March 3, 2011
Islam in Bangladesh
Imam
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)And yes, we all know you'd like to imagine that this has nothing to do with religion. But your imagination is the only place that notion holds sway.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)You pretty much just call names
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)in an attempt to rationalize this and to blame it on anything but religion, religious faith and religious motivation. Hence the entirely appropriate title of my post. And if you can point to a name you've been called, please do so.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)as beginning with the conclusion that this couldn't possibly have anything to do with religion, and then crafting your "analysis" to ignore or explain away anything to the contrary.
And still waiting for you to back up your accusation of name calling. Not holding my breath, though...I don't think you'll find that on Google.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)You aren't even reading your own Googlicious links.
From the first one:
The death has provoked outrage in the country, with human rights activists demanding justice for Hena and an end to the use of religion to deliver justice. Yesterday, rallies and human chains were formed in support of her.
From the second:
The court also asked to explain what measures the local administration had taken to resist Henas killing, in line with a previous HC verdict regarding false religious decrees (fatwa).
From the third:
On January 24, villagers administered the 101 lashes on her after local madrasa teacher Saidur Rahman and mosque Imam Md Mafiz Uddin issued a decree in this regard.
And the fourth:
Fifteen-year-old Hena was flogged to death following a fatwa (religious edict) at Chamta in Naria, Shariatpur in January.
The fifth and sixth are even worse pathetic grabs at straws, trying to suggest that the people involved weren't "truly" following their faith.
While you're busy imagining (your own word!) an alternative version of events, a girl is dead because of religious beliefs and religious tradition. It's absolutely disgusting that you seek to defend the murderers rather than the victim. How much lower can you stoop to defend religion?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You've got another case of religious justice to defend:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21595814
...
The legal system of the Maldives, an Islamic archipelago with a population of some 400,000, has elements of Islamic law (Sharia) as well as English common law.
I'm no English legal expert, but I don't think rape victims are traditionally punished in that system. But Islamic law looks very unfavorably upon premarital sex, and DOES punish rape victims.
So get to it, s4p. Defend this case too.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)you'd better straighten these folks out.
How Sharia Law Punishes Raped Women
http://www.aina.org/news/20081117111817.htm
I expect a point-by-point rebuttal if your fantasy how-it-could-have-been scenarios are to be taken seriously.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)You are grasping at every straw you can find in order to justify a version of events that clears religious beliefs of ANY responsibility in this incident.
I have used YOUR OWN LINKS to reaffirm the role of religion in this tragedy. You've ignored that because it doesn't fit your agenda.
Let me ask you something, s4p: if religious beliefs DIDN'T play a role, then are you saying that truly religious people can't do bad deeds? That evil only comes from non-believers or those who discard religious teachings? Let's hear it. Put it out there for all to see.
(BTW, others should know your little summary there is engaging in a lot of editorial artistry. Like saying it was just "the village elders" and ignoring IN YOUR OWN LINKS the statements that religious leaders were involved.)
Here's some more quotes from your links that reaffirm that religion DID play a role:
"imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment"
"The imam pronounced his fatwa."
"Next day, a fatwa was announced at a village arbitration"
"Idris Member, an architect of the fatwa"
"Shilpi's brother Akkas Meermalot wasted no time to mention that it should be done in accordance with Islamic law."
"Religious courts where fatwa or religious edicts are pronounced informally exist in almost every village across the country. When an imam of a mosque or a so called religious leader in a village gives an edict, simple God- fearing people, as most villagers are, are forced to accept it."
We can go on as long as you like. You seek to whitewash history, to excuse religion from any possible role in this incident. I choose to face facts and admit that religion DID play a role. The facts are on my side. Now address the points I made in the previous posts above.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Answer the questions I've posed to you. The tough ones that you're ignoring.
State whether you think religious beliefs can motivate someone to do a bad deed, or if that sort of thing is only done by non-believers.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)so if you claim Idris Member issued a fatwa, we should be able to find evidence that he presented himself as someone trained in Islamic law and that he actually issued an opinion that he presented as based on Islamic law. It's not at all clear that happened here. What does seem clear is the police went after him for his participation in an illegal extrajudicial sentencing and punishment. Of course, he might have been motivated by religious belief -- but if you are sure of it, perhaps you could provide some direct evidence of that. I have my own theory about his motivations, of course
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Could he have been motivated by his religious beliefs even *if* he wasn't adequately trained (in your unsupported opinion) in Islamic law?
In other words, do you admit it is possible he was following his religious beliefs as he understood them? (Your opinion of what "true" Islam is, would be a topic for another thread.)
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)BTW there sure are a buncha Meeralots involved!
[link:http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=173857|Girl Whipped to Death
Fresh case recorded in line with HC order]
Saturday, February 12, 2011
18 named, 10-12 unnamed people accused of rape, abduction, torture; Fatwa charge not pressed
Oh, and Shilpi, Jahanara, Morsheda, and Monimala are also part of the same fun family:
Exhuming the Truth
Anyway, your view (as I understand it) is that Akkas Meermalot must be motivated purely by religious considerations. Of course! within the last day or so, his brother-in-law Mehbub has raped a girl young enough to be Mehbub's daughter, after which his sister Shilpi with a couple of other ladies in the family pounded the crap out of the girl, until she's barely able to move: that's always some sort of lead-in to a moment of shared family piety, isn't it?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You are wrong, as I have made clear in this thread and the poll I posted, which I notice you still haven't voted in.
within the last day or so, his brother-in-law Mehbub has raped a girl young enough to be Mehbub's daughter, after which his sister Shilpi with a couple of other ladies in the family pounded the crap out of the girl, until she's barely able to move: that's always some sort of lead-in to a moment of shared family piety, isn't it?
Have you heard of honor killings?
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)villagers .. are forced to accept it"
The actual context here is that Shilpi Khan with several of her relatives beat the girl badly, after which Shilpi immediately organized a group, almost entirely composed of her relatives and in-laws, who met in the middle of the night at Shilpi's house, to condemn the girl further, after which Shilpi's sister-in-law administered another beating, which proved fatal
The story thus involves three separate incidents of criminal violence against the girl: (1) Mehbub Khan's rape of the girl; (2) the girl's beating by Shilpi, Morsheda, and Jahanara, which left the girl unable to walk; and (3) the girl's further beating after midnight by Monimala, after Shilpi and fourteen of Shilpi's relatives decided the girl deserved further punishment for "adultery"
There is, of course, some effort to provide the cover that all this violence was appropriate: that is why Shilpi's relative Idris (a local elected village official), Saiful (a local teacher), and Mafiz (a local prayer leader) are called in -- look! government supports us! scholars support us! our religion supports us! But serious violence begins much earlier
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Religion was a motivation, and a vehicle, that helped allow this to happen. You will never be able to whitewash the truth, no matter how much Google white you stare at during your searches.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Have a nice day
trotsky
(49,533 posts)But from my experience, I know better than to expect them from you!
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)the Bangladesh Awami League and its political allies won 262 of 345 seats in Parliament or about 3/4 of the seats. The League appears to be a progressive pro-democracy party, supporting secular government and socialist initiatives
Here is their 2008 platform:
The vision 2021 of Bangladesh Awami League
demosincebirth
(12,540 posts)struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)with people dedicated to increasing the number of women in office, opposed to the use of religion in politics, and committed to economic justice in our society: I think that even in the US that would represent a big step forward
So I'm not quite sure why you would regard news that happened, in Bangladesh, as evidence "Muslims still run the country like in the middle ages" -- unless, of course, some bigotry were involved
demosincebirth
(12,540 posts)certain religions for their barbaric treatment of women, so be it.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)from this story about Shilpi Khan organizing her relatives to administer fatal beating to her niece Hena Akhter, after the girl was raped, I find your reasoning defective
demosincebirth
(12,540 posts)struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)From Amnesty International:
According to government figures, violence against women topped all crimes reported to the police in the first six months of the year. Of 7,285 complaints made, 1,586 were rape cases. Parliament passed the Domestic Violence (Prevention and Protection) Bill in October.
Don't delude yourself into thinking this was an isolated incident. There is a demonstrable pattern of systemic sexism endogenous to countries "ruled" by Islamic law. That is not a judgement or a generalization of Muslims, but an objective evaluation of the religion's policies towards women.
The laws--not the people--are the problem.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)that of the US, where we had over 83K forcible rapes reported in 2011. If rape were as widespread in Bangladesh, as in the US, you would expect about 41K rapes a year in Bangladesh, instead of about 3K
Bangladesh, moreover, is not ruled by "Islamic law," as you would know, had you actually bothered to read my post #60 at the top of this subthread: three quarters of the seats in Parliament are currently held by secularists, whose political agenda includes increasing the number of parliamentary seats reserved for women from the current 45
... Bangladesh's Awami League won a landslide victory in 2008 on a platform of secularism, reform, and a suppression of radical Islamist groups ...
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)It should first be pointed out that your comparison of rape rates in Bangladesh to those of the United States is tu quoque nonsense. What happens here does not justify what happens there. Not that anyone here would jump to the defense of "American rape" anyway.
But rape is only half of the equation. The other half is how the Bangladeshi authorities respond to rape, which, according to Amnesty International, is beyond inadequate.
Yes, Bangladesh is ostensibly secular, but as it was already keenly pointed out, the rule of law rarely extends beyond urban environs. Remote, isolated rural villages and towns are left to their own devices, without much in the way of federal oversight. In the absence of formal legal authorities in these regions, villagers are shown to rely on "traditional" punitive measures, such as honor killings (which number in the thousands per year in Bangladesh) or coercing victims into marrying their attackers.
Since you have apparently failed to grasp this simple fact, I'll reiterate: these conditions are by no means a reflection of Bangladeshis, or Muslims, as a whole. These conditions are not, however, insignificant.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)of interpersonal violence and sexual assault: even one rape is one too many. But you claimed Bangladesh was governed by Islamic law and then further claimed that Islamic law explained violence against women in Bangladesh. Your first claim is simply false, as I have shown, and second claim appears to open up further avenues of confusion: if you blame Islam for violence against women in Bangladesh, to what do you attribute the high rates of violence against women in the US?
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)The people actually running the country object to such actions.
The Prime Minister of Bangladesh is female and pro-secularism.
There are a sizeable number of Islamic extremists in Bangladesh, but they are not currently the government.