Where Are the Humanists?

[cbayer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/us/on-religion-where-are-the-humanists.html?_r=0


After the funeral of Anne Marie Murphy, a teacher who was killed at the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings in Newtown, Conn., a mourner hugged an officiate at St. Mary Of The Assumption Church.
By SAMUEL G. FREEDMAN
Published: December 28, 2012

Since the Newtown massacre on Dec. 14, the tableau of grief and mourning has provided a vivid lesson in the religious variety of America. An interfaith service featuring President Obama, held two days after Adam Lanza killed 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School, included clergy from Bahai, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim and both mainline and evangelical Protestant congregations.

The funerals and burials over the past two weeks have taken place in Catholic, Congregational, Mormon and United Methodist houses of worship, among others. They have been held in Protestant megachurches and in a Jewish cemetery. A black Christian youth group traveled from Alabama to perform “Amazing Grace” at several of the services.

This illustration of religious belief in action, of faith expressed in extremis, an example at once so heart-rending and so affirming, has left behind one prickly question: Where were the humanists? At a time when the percentage of Americans without religious affiliation is growing rapidly, why did the “nones,” as they are colloquially known, seem so absent?

To raise these queries is not to play gotcha, or to be judgmental in a dire time. In fact, some leaders within the humanist movement — an umbrella term for those who call themselves atheists, agnostics, secularists and freethinkers, among other terms — are ruefully and self-critically saying the same thing themselves.

more at link

[msongs]

1. to be fair, it is the religionists' god(s) that allowed those kids to be killed so the humanists

are better off staying out of it

[cbayer]

2. What a load. But, hey, thanks for stopping in again.

[NoOneMan]

3. "... for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men"

The clergy just loves to show off their 400 thread silk gowns

[cbayer]

5. What does that have to do with the article?

[NoOneMan]

7. Well, one group is compelled to publicly show off their religiosity for self-edification

And another isn't. So what?

[cbayer]

8. That's not what the article is about at all, but thanks for stopping by.

[NoOneMan]

9. Its precisely what its about, but its framing the issue in a different manner

I reject that framing

[cbayer]

12. It's really not. It's about secular/humanist groups and organizations

reaching out to comfort those in need.

I think those within the growing movement need to do more of this and that it will increase visibility and acceptance in the community.

This article is not about bashing religion, it is about encouraging the non-religious to become more active.

What exactly do you object to in the framing?

[NoOneMan]

13. This article assumes their presence and actions is in fact comforting...

And the absence of humanists presence is not comforting or beneficial for the grieving process.

In the real world, their actions may in fact be more about showing off their fancy gowns and expanding their congregation, while humanists are not capitalizing on open wounds of the victims families. Perhaps the humanists have no incentive to use a tragedy like this to promote their message and expand their following (aside from secular gun control groups who are in fact being active).

This entire article is framed in a manner that promotes the religious practices and assumes their actions are an a priori benefit for the population. I reject that. I do not claim it to be false, but I reject that as an established truth to start a discussion with.

[cbayer]

14. Ok, I am beginning to get a better understanding of your POV and position

vis a vis religion.

To make the assumption that religious leaders and groups that have offered solace to those who lost their children or other family members did it more to show off their gowns and expand their congregations is just.... well, I don't even have the words.

Your agenda seems clearer than theirs to me, and I will leave you to it.

[NoOneMan]

15. Both views are without basis really

One is being used as a premise for the foundation of this article

Since we do not know the aggregate effect of the clergy in this situation (or their intent), or that of the humanists, any article that goes from there is baseless as well.

But kudos to the author to use a situation like this to (subtlely) sling feces

[cbayer]

16. Sling feces at who? He and other humanist leaders are encouraging more

visibility and action from organized groups. That will most certainly lead to better understanding and acceptance of non-believers. This, IMHO, is a very good thing.

It is my rather strong position that bashing religion, religionists and seeing something like this as slinging feces will achieve just the opposite.

So good luck with that.

[NoOneMan]

17. "This, IMHO, is a very good thing"

Which rests on the premise that showing off fancy gowns and regurgitating canned theodicy-based reasoning is good

There is no basis for even that though.

[cbayer]

18. Not what I said at all. Listen carefully.

I said that increasing visibility and activity is a good thing for marginalized communities in general and non-believers in particular.

[NoOneMan]

19. And in the context of this specific event...

It really may not be a good thing just to have face time and do things. It may just be self-edifying.

We don't really know if all the presence and doing is near as effective as sending a few therapy dogs home with grieving, shocked children. It also highly depends upon the people involved and the various methods that they prefer to use to grieve (which may be culturally-derived and ineffective methods at grieving in comparison to others). There is so much presumption to this basic article that its tough to take it seriously at all.

The fact of the matter is religious groups are in the practice of getting-out-the-prayer. We are in the practice of seeing them. This, by no means, has any ability to translate into effective action that is absent of ulterior motives, nor can this activity be applied to other groups who do not see the world the same way.

[cbayer]

20. If there were not value, people would not engage or attend.

Community is profoundly important to most people at times like these.

I get where you are coming from and respect your opinion on it, but it is narrow and can only be strictly applied to what helps or is of value to you. To deny that it is important to others, or that what is helpful to them really shouldn't be, is rather ridiculous and dogmatic, imo.

You are clear. You don't like theism or theists. But your broad brush assertions say more about you than they do about them.

[NoOneMan]

23. People use to practice blood letting

The existence of cultural phenomenon is not proof of that phenomenon's effectiveness (but rather of the culture's effectiveness at enforcing itself).

I'm not entirely sure you do understand where I am coming from. It isn't about my like or dislike of theists (though I generally don't endorse theism by any means). Its about an article being based on unsupported premises, which are then used to criticize the behavior of other groups according to an arbitrary standard.

I could use this same event to praise the action of the humble humanists who did not capitalize on the event, and then contrast this to the over-bearing media seeking clergy. That frame would be no more valid and supported, but might play well with whatever target group I had in mind. In both cases, the approach doesn't ask what science tells us about how each response actually impacts the minds of the grieving individuals over the short and long term (and how it manifests in the world at large).

[cbayer]

25. What I see are broadbrush smears and assumptions about the role of religion

and the place of those who practice it.

There were complaints in this group that non-believers were not acknowledged at the memorial service, while a variety of religious groups were recognized. The point is that the leaders of non-religious groups should join in at times like this both to provide comfort and support to non-believers.

I also note that there is concern among some non-believers that they are being compared to religious groups and they don't want to go there. I think there is a valid case for them representing and speaking to the non-religious that doesn't necessarily follow typical religious formats.

You disagree. I think it's a very good idea. So be it.

[NoOneMan]

26. Broadbrush smears are possible alternatives to broadbrush praise that this article assumes

There is nothing inherently, objectively good about chasing ambulances with canned theodicies. Thats all.

[Silent3]

31. "There is nothing inherently, objectively good about chasing ambulances with canned theodicies."

+1000. I love that line.

[no_hypocrisy]

4. I'm a member of the Teaneck Ethical Culture Society that organized the

Gun Control Vigil.

We hope to elevate our efforts to change the status quo.

[cbayer]

6. Excellent! I have seen an increasing number of these kinds of secular groups

becoming more active. IMHO, that is an very good move that will increase exposure and decrease bigotry towards non-believers.

[marybourg]

10. Really? How would any one know

a humanist from any other person? Let alone whether anyone at any given time and place considers him/herself a humanist. Do we have to wear yellow "H"s on our sleeves. Do we need to show up all together in a bus with "First Humanist Church" on the side. Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems an unusually foolish question being asked in this post.

[cbayer]

11. There are many large and active humanist organizations, and their numbers are growing.

I think he is speaking to them.

[skepticscott]

22. There are many large and active scientific organizations

and many large and active medical and legal organization, too. Where was the American Bar Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics? Why weren't they there in visible force to provide comfort, and why isn't the author calling them out for it?

I realize you have no clue about the kind of intellectual bankruptcy you're shilling for, and no ability to respond intelligently, but some people out there might be inclined to take you seriously.

[NoOneMan]

24. More importantly, where were the Furries?

[marybourg]

27. Why do humanists need an organization? So they can not pray

all together? So that they can build an expensive edifice to not worship in? And I can tell you that there at no humanist organizations where I live, large or otherwise, except for a small JEWISH humanist synagogue. Would they count as humanists or jews? And frankly, I doubt there are large humanist organizations anywhere including the Ethical Humanist Society of New York. Humanists are everywhere, but they have no compelling reason to join organizations or act in concert.

[cbayer]

28. The groups have formed for a variety of reasons.

The primary purposes are to provide support and community to like minded individuals, to increase visibility and acceptance of non-religious people and to address legal issues, particularly around of church/state separation and discrimination.

Some organizations are also taking active part in causes involving civil liberties and social justice.

Just like believers, some non-believers choose to be a part of a larger organization while others do not.

[cleanhippie]

21. They were there. They just don't need to bring attention and pageantry to it like religious ones do.

[dimbear]

29. The humanists haven't made any grand promises to protect their flocks. They haven't

failed to keep their word, they didn't give it.

[skepticscott]

30. Nor do humanists

Last edited Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:23 AM - Edit history (1)

offer up the kind of "comfort" that religions offer, for people who desperately need to be told that their child "is in a better place" or "has been called by Jesus" or that they will "see them again in heaven". Sorry, but humanism and atheism are not that comforting...they are not about delusion and wishful thinking, but about truth and reason, regardless of whether it makes you feel all fuzzy-wuzzy.

Not that comfort can't be offered to grieving people without injecting religion and Jeebus-talk. Much of the grief counseling that went on was entirely secular, but those people had no other agenda of self-promotion, and didn't wear the fancy drapes.

[EvilAL]

32. hahahahahah

I have to laugh at that.
I also like how they added that the "black Christian youth group from Alabama" showed up, instead of just a "Christian youth group from Alabama" showed up. I mean, if black kids can drive up from Alabama, surely the humanists can organise something in the way or help. Must be all those sleeping in on Sunday weekends that made them lazy or something.
also the "leaders" in the humanist (which includes me under an umbrella I guess, wish someone woulda told me) movement don't speak for me or anyone else.