"Azazel: The Scapegoat" - On devil worship

[redgreenandblue]

Came across this article recently. Re-inforced my suspicion that the Christian/Jewish devil is much better than his reputation.

I am an agnostic myself, but if one takes the Christian/Jewish literature at face value, the conclusion that Jahwe/Jesus is nothing but a dictator while the devil in fact stands for self-determination and taking responsibilty is almost inevitable.

http://theisticsatanism.com/geifodd/azazel.html

One of the first manifestations of Satan, the Christian Devil, in Judaic thought was Azazel, a Horned God of the Hebrews who was associated with darkness and the desert wilderness. It was believed by the Second Temple Era Jews that Azazel was the one who had taught human beings the various arts of civilization, including weaponry, cosmetics, the sciences, the liberal arts and “witchcraft.” It was Azazel, also known as Samael ("Venomous God&quot , who tempted Adam and Eve with the Fruit of Knowledge in the form of a serpent. He was also the one who inspired the people of Babel to make the technological feat of building their Tower. It was by teaching these various forbidden arts and by inspiring humanity to “reach for the stars” and take control of their environments that Azazel had fallen out of favor with the Abrahamic deity, and it was for teaching human beings these “sinful” activities that Azazel was chained to a rock in the desert wilderness, much like Prometheus was chained to a mountain in Greek mythology. In fact, Azazel is very much like a combination of Prometheus and the Arcadian Pan: a dark and wild Horned God who is also paradoxically a bringer of light and civilization.
...

[intaglio]

1. I've seen good arguments that early Judaeism was pantheistic

With a trickster god, a supreme mother and a war god amongst others

[rug]

2. That's a strange site.

http://theisticsatanism.com/

http://theisticsatanism.com/CoBG/who.html

[redgreenandblue]

3. Yeah, those people are actual Satanists.

It is pretty weird to realize that some people take this stuff as serious as others take Christianity.

I came across the site more or less by accident (was doing some research about the Christian devil).

[rug]

4. There is little equivalence.

Unless of course you see a parallel between the Cathedral of the Black Goat.

Hosting an odd website has as much to do with religion as the Creative Speculation group has with LBN.

[cleanhippie]

7. The parallel I see is that both have unwavering faith in what they believe...

which makes them equally odd from my perspective.

[rug]

8. Faith is rarely unwavering.

I don't see how you can infer that.

[cleanhippie]

9. Come on, rug, no need to be obtuse.

You can pick at my choice of words, but the point is clear.

[rug]

10. It's a legitimate point.

The more certitude, the more likely to be wrong.

[cleanhippie]

11. Oh bother.

Do you have conversations this way outside of DU or the courtroom?

[rug]

12. Lol, sadly, yes.

[cleanhippie]

13. With people who are not fluent in lawyer-ese?

And are they meaningful and informative?

To me, that tactic, used here where nuance and non-verbal communication are very difficult to convey, is counter-productive and creates a barrier to mutual understanding.

[rug]

14. My wife throws things at me.

[cleanhippie]

15. There is a lesson to be learned there.

And if a way to throw things on the internet ever becomes possible, you may be in danger.

My point: Why so obtuse? How can meaningful conversation take place when one insists on being so grammatically rigid?

[rug]

16. Here is the reason.

To find that the common denominater between the Cathedral of the Black Goat and religions is "unwavering faith" is both inaccurate and reduces both to cartoons. Deating caricatures is not a debate at all.

There are many other features to distinguish between organizations. "Unwavering faith" is not one of them. And I repeat, unwavering faith is a scarce commodity.

[cleanhippie]

17. That is not the lesson at all.

The lesson is that being intentionally obtuse is not a path toward understanding or agreement or meaningful conversation.

Perhaps a new reply to my post up thread that doesn't use my choice of words as the basis for a rebuttal but instead addresses the point being made will get us past this roadblock. In the meantime, I will endeavor to better utilize my limited grasp of the English language. Fair enough?

[rug]

18. On the other hund, obtuseness in good supply.

[cleanhippie]

19. I added a bit to my last post. Kindly have a look.

[rug]

20. Fair enough.

FWIW, I do see a superficial similarity between this group and religions in general. But I do thnk the differences far outweigh the similarities. One thing I've noticed about newer eligions, particularly internet-bade religions, is that they often take on the argot of established religions to claim instant authenticity.

[cleanhippie]

21. Good points.

But what makes one belief system more authentic than another?

[rug]

22. Believe it or not, whether or not it's inherently reasonable.

Note, the premise that there is a god, while undemonstrable, can be reasonable. The test of reason applies to what follows.

[cleanhippie]

23. How can one differentiate between what is and what is not reasonable when it comes to belief

in the supernatural?

[rug]

25. What I do, is I look at the effect of the belief.

If it does good and is otherwise sensible,then I think the belief, though based on a premise that is neither demonstrable or unprovable, is reasonable.

Nor am I blind to the horrors done in the name of religion. An examination of them usually uncovers a cause tht is remote to the belief itself.

[dimbear]

5. The figure of the opponent changes radically over time, as is clear from the Bible. A good

rule of thumb is to caricature the god of the last religion you just replaced.

That's why we're working with the Great God Pan right now, whereas in the old days folks dealt with The Lord of the Celestial Heavens, Ba'al Zebub. When the Hebrew priests made mockery of that god they rendered his name Beelzebub. Does that mean "Lord of the Flies?" And so on.

It's a long but interesting story.

[cleanhippie]

6. "the conclusion that Jahwe/Jesus is nothing but a dictator..."

You are spot-on about that.

[Marrah_G]

24. Many Pagan dieties have horns and hoofs

The Catholic church did a very good job convincing the masses that their Gods were in fact Devils.

Just a few:


Cernunnos, The Celtic God of fertility, animals and the underworld.
Herne The Hunter, a specter of Britain.
Pan the Greek god of the woodlands,
Janus the Roman god of good beings.
Tammuz and Damuzi, the son, lover and consorts to Ishtar and Inanna.
Osiris, the Egyptian Lord of the underworld.
Dionysus, the Greek god of vegetation and vine.
The Green Man, the lord of vegetation and the woodlands.

http://www.paganspath.com/magik/hornedgod.htm

[Drale]

26. Old Yellow Eyes

lets see if anyone gets the reference.