Religion
Related: About this forumCould someone explain what apologetics are?
I have read various definitions, but still don't know the answer. I have a friend who is upset about their son getting into it and I don't know how to respond to her concerns.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)It's nothing more than defending christian religious beliefs when questioned by non-believers or someone of another faith. It can also be used "offensively" to convert non-believers. Requires a strong knowledge of the bible and church teachings.
Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)Apparently, some group is going around and converting young people into the group. I'm not sure he is into apologetics, but that is what I got from a Facebook post.
Whatever he is into is more than how you described and they are quite worried. They are active Christians and concerned because he is into further education with some group.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)becoming a bit extreme.
I find it interesting that "active christians" would object to a son proselytizing. If he's become an anti-gay, anti-abortion fanatic, that could be a problem. But if they hold the same positions, it seems a bit odd to be worried about a child for following in their footsteps. Further education? Does that mean advanced Bible study?
How old is this son? Are your friends Catholic or Protestant, if the latter, which denomination? I can't see the problem for an "active christian" family. Are they afraid the group is a cult?
Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to think my way through this....
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Unless one is a religious fundamentalist, then they should be afraid of any group that is anti-science and reality trying to indoctrinate their child.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)The writer said her friends are "active christians" What does that mean?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And if you studied apologetics then you already know it is full of logical fallacies and long-debunked nonsense.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)but from a very young age I had problems getting my head around the teachings. For a good part of my life my head battled with my heart untll finally my head won. 26 years ago I began a bible study program that included apologetics in one final attempt to accept the teachings of christianity.
You cannot "debunk" faith or beliefs as they are not fact based. Ultimately that is the steel chain that keeps people tethered to their religion. Apologetics is no more nonsensical than the rest of religion.... You either believe in a very bad tempered and arbitrary magician in the sky or you don't.
What most interested me in the OP was the "active christian" friends.... All of us reap what we sow, eventually.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I am glad reason and reality won you over.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)are very active in the activities of the church and active in prayer groups.
rug
(82,333 posts)All logic begins with a premise. You can reject the premise but you cannot credibly argue that what flows from the premise is ant-reason and anti-logic.
Your post is bathed in opinion and projection which is itself antithetical to reason and logic.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Last edited Wed Nov 21, 2012, 02:16 PM - Edit history (1)
on edit:
Found this just a minute ago...
In 2009, Answers in Genesis contracted with Americas Research Group to conduct research into why the church is losing so many young people from this generation. The results showed that two-thirds of young people leave the church by the time they reach college age. Why? One main reason was a lack of training in apologetics. Our young people dont know how to respond to the skeptical questions of this age! They have been taughtthrough public schools, media, and museumsthat the Word of God is not trustworthy.
The results of this research are available in my book (co-authored with Britt Beemer) Already Gone.
Well, the Kids Without God site offers answers to teens questions about topics like evolution, sex, and moralityall from an atheistic worldview. Theres even a section on how to tell their families that they dont believe there is a God!
Of course, this anti-God group capitalizes on pop culture to try to influence teens minds toward atheism by listing atheist rock songs and presenting a list of the most popular atheist actors.
http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2012/11/21/are-your-teens-good-without-god/
rug
(82,333 posts)Maybe you don't.
Start with Irenaeus. When you get bast the second century let me know and I'll give you some more.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Half-baked nonsense and nothing more.
rug
(82,333 posts)You don't define an elephant by describiting its tail.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)It is a perfect description.
I've yet to see an apologists argument that wasn't littered with logical fallacies and failed to match reality. Its mental masturbation at best, dressed up to look like real sex.
rug
(82,333 posts)Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian, among others, was around more than a millenium before these bogeymen of yours were born.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)It's regular plethora of apologetic wit and wisdom.
The point being, that the argument, whether given by Martyr..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr#Apology
or Humblebum (Other Ways of Knowing, Stalin, Mao, Militant Atheists, etc..)
Or Serious Theologians (Thatsmyopinion comes to mind)...
It is all nonsense and logical fallacies that fail to match the reality we inhabit.
rug
(82,333 posts)This is how Aquinas' Summa Theologica begins.
Of course you disagree with him, his premise and likely everything he stands for. But what follows is far from "nonsense and logical fallacies". It is the application of intellect at the highest level.
Likewise, look how Descartes begins his Discourse on the Method (in which his famous "Je pense donc je suis" is found).
astray.
You do yourself a disservice by tossing these thinkers because of a gaggle of yahoos.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)MineralMan
(146,309 posts)to be true. What flows from that faulty premise is unreason and illogic.
No argument from a faulty premise can stand the test of logic.
rug
(82,333 posts)Do you know what datum means?
MineralMan
(146,309 posts)is flawed from the start. I will simply refute the premise and demand that it be demonstrated to be true or I will demonstrate its flaw.
A. Rain makes grass wet.
B. The grass is wet.
Ergo: It has rained.
Incorrect logic, because rain is not the only thing that makes grass wet. I can demonstrate my refutation.
The conclusion is false. The logic is flawed, because the premise is not exclusively valid.
noun (plural data)
1 a piece of information: the fact is a datum worth taking into account
an assumption or premise from which inferences may be drawn
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/datum
Now, do you know what an assumption is?
MineralMan
(146,309 posts)Truly.
rug
(82,333 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)In many logical arguments, we begin with a premise, which is something asserted to be true. And then we either 1) see what follows from it, if it is assumed to be true. Or 2) we see if the premise itself holds up, to logical interrogation.
So for example, apologetics usually poses, as its chief, general, methodological assumption or assertion or premise, 1) the idea that God exists, and that he is as he is described to be, in the Bible. If this is true it says, then we should be able to prove it. we can examine the logical consequences of that, and see if they hold up.
Or better, Apologetics' more proper general premise is 2) that simple logical, rational exploration of our religion, can "prove" that it is true.
But 1) we should question both premises. First, if we are really interested in logical and reason, and deeply interrogating religion, then we should not assume that God exists. Which should not accept that premise.
Or better, 2) we might question whether Christians, pretending to use logica, are really arguing in good faith. We should be aware that most Christians based themselves explicitly on "faith," not reason. Indeed often the "mind" and "philosophy" so forth are explicitly rejected in many readings of the Bible. Therefore when attempting to argue with Christians on a logical basis, we might well question their objectivity and sincerity. Is logic more than a front, for them? isn't their whole emphasis on "faith" really an attack on reason itself? Therefore we would expect Christians to be typically, misusing logic; employing sophistry and false arguments instead.
Which is in fact what we see.
Apologetics pretends to be about logica and reason. But ultimately it is actually the last great bastion of ... Sophistry.
To be sure, this isn't the strongest argument against apologists; just a general warning. Next to be sure, we might extend the benefit of the doubt to them, and assume for purposes of argument that they are arguing, using logic in good faith. Though perhaps finally this is a concession we should not make. Given their history.
rug
(82,333 posts)It cannot be proven or disproven. If one insists on proving the premise before even contemplating the results of the premise, all that occurs is the closing of minds.
The existence or nonexstence of a god is an entirely different discussion.
But the application of reason and logic to either premise, that a god exists or that a god does not exist, can and has occurred for millenia, with far better results than what is occurring now.
The problem with religious literalists is the entire exercise is finding a path to a preordained conclusion. The opposite, to not begin the endeavor, because the premise is treated as a conclusion not a starting point, simply cuts off thinking in the first place. Both are equally intellectually feeble.
Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)He is supposedly taking training to become a Church of Christ minister via some on-line site. He believes the earth is 6000 years old and that man was on the ark with dinosaurs.
The parents are Methodist. I think part of the problem might also involve finances. How can he support a family...I think they have 5 or 6 children...while pursuing this training to become a minister.
They are hinting that they think this is a cult-like group and that he may be getting into something he'll be sorry for.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)congregations here in Palm Beach County, FL. It is more fundamental than the Methodist Church that's for sure. Dinosaurs on the Ark sounds about right. If he is 40+ one has to wonder what was going on in his life to cause him to take this path.
If he is training on-line he can still continue with his job...I'd be worried about after the training... People turn to fundamentalist types of christianity when they feel their souls are not being 'fed' by the more traditional congregations. Quite often this feeling of 'hunger' is due to some crisis. Perhaps they should try to find out what drove him to this....
Good luck to you and your friends.
Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)I would guess his "crisis" was his back, surgery and finances.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)It's sad that at a time when he could use familial support, he has cut off his parents.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)It's too bad that at a time when he could use familial support he has cut off his family.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Christian Apologetics is an industry peddling nonsense and "other ways of knowing" such as "its in the bible so it is true..." to refute and disprove the scientific explanation for just about anything to do with evolution, biology, geology, archaeology, etc..
Check out these websites for a couple of examples of anything BUT simply defending christian religious beliefs when questioned by non-believers or someone of another faith.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
http://www.icr.org/
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)so while there may, indeed, be an industry peddling nonsense, it is nothing more than an attempt to use reasoned arguments to defend or present the faith.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And to be honest about it, there is not much "reason" involved at all, as all of the apologetics arguments are littered with logical fallacies.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Check out these websites for a couple of examples...
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
http://www.icr.org/
Christian Apologetics is an industry peddling nonsense and "other ways of knowing" such as "its in the bible so it is true..." to refute and disprove the scientific explanation for just about anything to do with evolution, biology, geology, archaeology, etc..
Your friend should be very, very afraid.
Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)How old is your friends son? They like to get hold of teens, especially younger ones, that are easily duped by quackery and pseudoscience, sprinkled with religious fervor. You friend should do everything in her power to expose her son to science, reason, and critical thought. It is the only way to combat such ignorance. "Other ways of knowing" has powerful appeal to those who are intellectually lazy or young.
Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)He has several children and was trained/worked in the nursing field. Due to a back injury, I think he fell into this as a way for answers to his problems...just got the wrong source for help.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)This is very popular with the "born-again" fundie crowd.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)While I am not a believer, he obviously is and this may all work out....
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's an older sense of the word. In Plato's "Apology", Socrates wasn't saying he was sorry, but arguing his case.
Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)He argued with his father (who is a Christian and active in his church), but became so upset, he cut off any connections for himelf and his children with his parents. It is killing them, thus, my concern.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)MineralMan
(146,309 posts)that Christians should apologize for attempting to use to convince people they know something that is true.
If someone offers you some apologetics, just say, "Hey, thanks, but it's OK."
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)You should lookup apo logos.
Facts are much more interesting than lazy snark.
MineralMan
(146,309 posts)It was a joke. I'm sure you've heard of those.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)intaglio
(8,170 posts)The word is derived from the Greek where an apologia was a defense used in a trial. Many faiths use Apologists who seek ways to defend their faith from criticism or attacks by science, philosophy or other faiths.
Generally in the West Apologists are Christian Apologists and some (wrongly) assume that the only apologetics are Christian ones. There is nothing wrong with the idea of apologists except that all too often they stray into received wisdom and specious arguments. A classic example of this is the Presupposition Apologetic denial of any absolute knowledge except that received by revelation direct from God. The Hovinds, for example, use this to argue that all scientific or experimental evidence is flawed.
Other Apologetics will cite the good bits of the Bible as proof of it's divine origins; the nasty bits are explained away in many ways such as poor translation or foolish mortals not having sufficient information to see that God had no other choices.
I suggest the the person about whom you are worried is pointed to the Skeptics Annotated Bible. It is a fine publication and also point the reader to sites that argue against the SAB interpretation of the words.