German cabinet approves controversial circumcision bill

[rug]

2 hours ago
By Donald Snyder, NBC News Special Correspondent

BERLIN -- The German cabinet approved a bill on Wednesday to make circumcision legal, a major step toward ending a controversy that started when a Cologne court banned the practice.

Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle issued the following statement: “This law will create legal certainty for those practicing religious traditions in Germany. The bill clearly shows that Germany is and will remain a cosmopolitan and tolerant country. We want Jewish and Muslim life to flourish as part of our society.”

The bill now goes to the Bundestag (German parliament) where it will be debated and a law will be drafted.

The debate over circumcision arose in June when Cologne’s regional court ruled that the ritual deprives a child of the right to self-determination and violates his physical integrity.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/10/14347482-german-cabinet-approves-controversial-circumcision-bill?lite

[xfundy]

1. God wants so see everyone's winkie. Otherwise, he doesn't recognize them.

"the ritual deprives a child of the right to self-determination and violates his physical integrity."

Yes, yes it does. Perhaps children should be given tattoos at birth, so that their parents' religion can be known to all? Wait, that's probably illegal. But tattoos can be removed, with technology and pain. This, a cutting off of body parts. can never be replaced.

Baby Jesus™ wants a sword fight with every male after they've died, just to make sure they didn't have TOO much pleasure on earth.

Curiouser-- no, wack and wackier, and wackier, ad infinitum.

[rug]

2. With a conception of God like that, it's logical you're an atheist.

Of course, you don't know what you're talking about.

[DavidL]

3. If circumcision could not happen until men reach 18 yrs,..

there would be hundreds of millions less Christian and Jewish men on this planet. And, no doubt, hundreds of millions more agnostics or atheists.

If something as medically unnecessary as circumcision is a senselessly required part of those religious practices, there's little rationale for sane adult men to want to be a part of those religions and be required to undergo that procedure.

No wonder most non-medically necessary circumcisions are carried out on defenseless infants for reasons that could only be described as irrational acts chosen by parents from purely religious motivations.

[cbayer]

4. In what Christian sects is circumcision routinely done?

And what in the world would it have to do with being an agnostic or atheist, which is about lack of beliefs and not about religious rituals?

In some tribal Kenyan societies, men are routinely circumcised in their late teens as part of their religious rituals. Virtually no one refuses, so that kind of blows your whole theory out of the water.

[DavidL]

11. You might want to read up on Kenyan cultures

In some tribal Kenyan societies, men are routinely circumcised in their late teens as part of their religious rituals. Virtually no one refuses,

REALLY????




In Kenya, Forced Male Circumcision and a Struggle for Justice

The International Criminal Court faces a difficult history of sexual violence in Sub-Saharan Africa, and a chance to reconsider this under-discussed atrocity

For the majority of tribes in Kenya, the circumcision ceremony, held when boys are 13 or 14 and have completed their Class 8 exams, marks the assumption of their roles as men. "You're now expected to engage in manly activities," Wangechi said. "One could be called to sit in on discussions with other men about inheritance issues, property issues, and other topics."

"No one looks at your age; they look at whether you've gone through the rite of passage. It's that significant."

In some tribes, she added, newly circumcised boys "are expected to have a sexual relationship to prove they've entered into manhood."

Despite the ingrained discrimination -- and periodic bouts of violence -- targeting uncircumcised men in some areas, the issue receives little public attention. "No one has ever talked about male circumcision. It's just not visible," Wangechi said.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/08/in-kenya-forced-male-circumcision-and-a-struggle-for-justice/242757/



............................................................

Herein might lie the REASON why some young men voluntarily submit to circumcision in their teens:

Uncircumcised, the boy - for he would remain a boy even if he lived to ninety years - would also be barred from getting married and raising children. For a girl, circumcision meant that she was able to bear children, and marriage was usually swift to follow.

http://www.bluegecko.org/kenya/tribes/kikuyu/circumcision.htm



Just exactly WHAT "whole theory" was "blown out of the water"? Oh, the one where I claimed adult men might not want to voluntarily submit themselves to genital mutilation for the sake of joining a religion and might prefer to remain non-believers or remain people who question the existence of a god?

Really: defending the practice based upon customs of tribal societies who still practice various forms of witchcraft?

Let's look at this practice today in the age of modern medicine and AIDS awareness among these people.

Circumcision The Kuria people have various customs. Some of the include circumcision for both sexes. Traditionally circumcision was done at the age around 13 years, just when puberty begaun. To this date, various organisations are working to ensure the tradition of female genital mutilation is abotted. Also due to increased spread of HIV/AIDS during circumcision rituals due to the use of the same tools, many families are opting to take their children to hospitals and the traditional cutters have now opted to use individual razers for each person during circumcision. After the cut, the boys or girls that have undergone the practice are normally led back home by fellow villagers amidst singing and dancing and money is pinned on to their 'shukas'. The shukas are one piece coloured sheets that the circumcised tie around themselves so as to let the blood drip freely to the ground. Once circumcision has taken place, according to tradition, the boy or girl is deemed ready for marriage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuria_people

All told, I am not sure you've made a valid argument here in favor of preservation of ancient, and irrational ceremonial practices, be they in one religion or within another cultural tradition in the right of passage into adulthood.

[cbayer]

12. My argument was not about the rightness or wrongness of the procedure,

it was about how waiting until adolescence will not automatically turn men into atheists, as you had claimed.

Nothing you have posted here supports that claim.

And I again ask you about your claim that there is routine circumcision in christian cultures.

[DavidL]

13. I did no such thing, the words are your own.

I never used the word "automatically", as you can plainly see.

Of course, given our current culture, we will never have the opportunity to carry out that experiment and allow boys to wait until they are of adult age and choose to be circumcised as a part of affirmation of faith at such age. We DO, however, live within a culture where many young men leave the church or Synagog of their upbringing, in ever growing numbers, in the USA and much of Europe.

My logical argument simply states that if you increase the disincentive to remain within a faith by adding a requirement that they undergo circumcision, as a part of belonging to that faith, the odds increase that they will not remain within that faith. Odds that I would be willing to suggest, (as I did) that would be in such numbers that tens or hundreds of millions of young adult me would opt not to follow, would further question that rationality of the faith requiring such a procedure, and reject it as irrational, because it is personally physically burdensome and at least potentially harmful or limiting to a body's enjoyment of sexuality.

In Kenya, as you probably have not been able to observe personally, the link between a requirement to undergo circumcision (for both male and female), is one tied to the right of passage into adulthood in their culture. But more important, it becomes, in most tribes, a requirement that must be met before taking on a spouse and bearing children, something the overwhelming majority of adults in most cultures in the world find a desirable goal, (I say "most" not all, because, as we know, not everyone wishes to wed a partner of the opposite sex, nor does every adult want to raise children, but most do, especially at age 14.)

(By the way, no reputable psychologist nor educator today would consider 14 years of age a "mature" adult, nor consider such person even a "late teen" who is capable of fully rational adult decision-making. So I don't accept your argument that decisions at 14 years of age, made under the duress of rules within their culture, are decisions of adult men.) Your argument was purposeless, and and rather glaringly filled with factual inaccuracy about the critical issue of choice, (to marry and have children), and the exact age of "consent".

And I again ask you about your claim that there is routine circumcision in christian cultures.

And, for a second or third time, you misread or misunderstood, (or deliberately for argumentation sake?), misinterpreted what was said. Is that a habit with you?

Please re-read what I said,

If circumcision could not happen until men reach 18 yrs, there would be hundreds of millions less Christian and Jewish men on this planet

Do you not know that many Christian men alive today in the USA and in other nations are circumcised ? I grew up in a Christian family, in a Christian community in the USA, wherein almost ALL men, Christians and Jews, were circumcised.


As for Christianity and Circumcision, the debate within the Christian faith is as lively today as it has been since the time of the Paul . Let's speak about Kenya, since you brought it up.

Some Christian churches in South Africa oppose circumcision, viewing it as a pagan ritual, while others, including the Nomiya church in Kenya, require circumcision for membership. Some participants in focus group discussions in Zambia and Malawi said that Christians should practice circumcision because Jesus was circumcised and the Bible teaches the practice.

Or the general introduction to this article which states"

Male circumcision practiced as a religious rite is found in texts of the Hebrew Bible, as part of the Abrahamic covenant, such as in Genesis 17, and is therefore practiced by Jews and Muslims and some Christians, who constitute the Abrahamic religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_male_circumcision#In_Christianity

A bit closer to home,

The National Association of Evangelicals, which represents more than 45,000 local churches, released a statement on Thursday expressing solidarity with Jewish and Muslim leaders in their stance against the ban.
“While evangelical denominations traditionally neither require nor forbid circumcision, we join Jews and Muslims in opposing this ban and standing together for religious freedom," said NAE President Leith Anderson.
"Jews, Muslims, and Christians all trace our spiritual heritage back to Abraham. Biblical circumcision begins with Abraham. No American government should restrict this historic tradition. Essential religious liberties are at stake."

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/circumcision-ban-proposal-draws-opposition-from-evangelicals-51081/#C0Z0RtKwcGGbC1I7.99

Or this, from a 2008 article in the Washington Post

"They want their babies circumcised in the comfort of their homes surrounded by family and friends, and they want it performed by someone highly experienced, who brings spirituality and meaning to the practice," he said. "And it's over in 30 seconds, compared to what hospitals do, which can be from 20 to 45 minutes, with the baby strapped down."

Many Christian clients, including the Watsons, liked what they saw at a friend's brith milah, also known as a bris. Others are conservative Christians who want to follow Old Testament tradition or learned about holistic circumcisions from the Internet, their doctors or others, Kushner said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/22/AR2008082202673.html

Shall we just move on? My point was what I thought was quite obvious: babies don't make choices. Only real adults can rationally choose for themselves, for whatever reasons they want, tied to their religious beliefs or not.

[cbayer]

5. I think they have reached a reasonable compromise here.

The procedure must be done by someone trained to do so and parents must be clearly informed of risks.

And before anyway here wails about how wrong it is anyway, please tell me what you are doing to outlaw the procedure for non-religious reasons in the US, where it still occurs in very high numbers.

[Meshuga]

6. The rate of circumcision on newborns is falling in the US

...and according to studies at John Hopkins University this is causing health care costs to soar by billions of dollars due to increased numbers of HIV infection, HPV, cervical cancer, penile cancer, etc.

[cbayer]

7. I don't support circumcision as a procedure to prevent possible future medical problems

in the US.

I also don't support routine mastectomies or hysterectomies to prevent possible future cancers, except in populations at very high risk.

There are other ways to address these problems, including increased education about hygiene and STD prevention.

I do, on the other hand, support the rights of parents to choose circumcision for religious reasons.

[Meshuga]

8. I'm indifferent either way

Parents should be able to choose what they think is best for their children. If they decide to circumcise or not circumcise their child based on health factors or religious tradition then it is up to the parents.

Personally, I am circumcised (and my son is as well) because of religious tradition. But if I thought circumcision would harm my child then I would not allow it to happen.

[cbayer]

9. I think that's a reasonable position, though I have worked for and support

educating parents about circumcision for non-religious reasons, i.e those that are doing it solely because dad is circumcised or all the other kids are.

I chose not to circumcise my sons despite living in a cultural environment where it was overwhelming the norm to circumcise.

[MineralMan]

10. I feel the same way about baptism of infants.

I see no real difference. In neither case does the child remember the procedure, and in neither case is there any particular difference in their lives.

Parents decide all sorts of things for their children before the children have any free will. In almost all cases, the child remembers nothing of it, and it has little effect on the child's future.

In my case, I did not know that I had been circumcised until 7th grade, when PE class involved communal showers. It was pretty funny, really. All the little Catholic boys hadn't been circumcised, and all the little Protestant boys had. I didn't find out why that was for a couple more years. It didn't seem to make any difference to any of us, though.