60 Minutes re-ran their story about Irish Catholicism tonight.

[MineralMan]

I wept for the child victims of those priests, and for the victims of the church hierarchy.

The Vatican's response? They recalled the Vatican Ambassador to Ireland. Nice move, Papa.

Someday, I hope they will understand and sincerely repent the the harm they have done. Perhaps it will take the death of the Church in Ireland, once a mainstay of RCC faith.

A pox on those who cover up their sins and the sins of their minions! Sometimes I've very glad I'm an atheist.

[tularetom]

1. At least Penn State fired Joe Paterno

The church muckety mucks who knew this was going on and actively covered it up were rewarded with promotions, in some cases specifically to get them away from the messes they caused or allowed to develop.

If there was actually any justice in this system the pope would be fired.

[MineralMan]

2. Only the Pope can fire the Pope,

and this one seems happy with things as they are.

I question how ordinary Catholics can continue to support this corrupt hierarchy. And yet, they do, and in the millions.

Feh! Take away their money and they shrivel and disappear. Keep giving them money, and they thrive. It is that simple.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

3. How does the hierarchy get the support of "ordinary Catholics"? Good question.

IMO, part of the answer is that the gullible and superstitious have been indoctrinated to believe certain things all of their lives.

They believe that the hierarchy has a voice to God and, among other things, can influence how God treats the souls of their ancestors and loved ones. When they go to the hallowed grave-sites of their ancestors and loved ones, they have been taught to believe that their ancestors and loved ones who have died before they have still have souls who can hear them and their prayers. Through superstition, the Church hierarchy effectively holds the souls of their loved ones as hostage.

The Church hierarchy also requires the gullible and superstitious to privately confess the secrets that they are ashamed of and would not want others to know. They teach the gullible and superstitious that all persons are sinful. And ask, "Who shall cast the first stone?" The gullible and superstitious are trained to be forgiving of the hierarchy because all men are sinners. And because they are trained to believe that the sinful, who are not to be judged by them, will be judged after they die.

There's more, of course. It is the best scam that the world has ever seen. It's all nonsense, but very profitable nonsense. And it is the kind of nonsense that inherently protects the continuation of the hierarchy and whatever the members of the hierarchy have done.

[MineralMan]

4. You are correct, I believe.

As my Irish great-grandmother would say, "'Tis a shame, my lad. A shame, in truth."
My Scottish great-grandfather would simple show a face of disgust.

And so it is...a shame.

[rug]

6. How many of the billion Catholics do you call "gullible and superstitious"?

[MineralMan]

10. As many as are able to countenance these child rapes and coverups

without loud and continual demands that they stop. I can't answer for the other DUer, but that's my answer.

[rug]

15. Oh that's plain bullshit.

Pay atention. There are many who have opposed this.

Let's be clear what you're saying:

Do you say that people who are not making "loud and continuous demands" are gullible anf superstitious?

[MineralMan]

19. Either that or complicit in what is going on.

I prefer to think that they are simply gullible and superstitious. The alternative is not a pleasant one to consider. As for those who continue providing moral and material support to such an organization, I have no comment at all.

Further, I am paying attention. Close attention. But, I do not follow orders from anonymous Internet posters, so you can save those.

[rug]

21. So, unless a Catholic is making loud and continuous demands, they are complicit?

Tell me: in your haughty view of morality, do you support the continuing Afghanistand War and, if so, how loud and continuous have your demands been?

[MineralMan]

26. I did not say that. I said that they were either

gullible and superstitious or complicit. Please do not alter my words or my meaning. I will always correct you when you do that.

I have been corresponding with legislators and the White House for years about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, expressing my opinion that they should be stopped forthwith. I also support the withdrawal of all of our military from all foreign countries, including Germany, Japan, and Korea. My objections have been continuous through two presidencies. How loud, I cannot say. I doubt my influence is very great.

I'm always happy to answer your questions, if presented in a non-insulting way.

[rug]

28. "Stopped forthwith"?

Good job.

I must dispatch a stern letter to my legislators.

[MineralMan]

32. That's an excellent idea. Written communications are more effective.

I've found that carefully-written letters bring actual responses from the addressee. Educated people understand words like "forthwith." Education is funny that way.

You might also write to others who are engaging in activities you oppose. Hint: Don't include a check with those letters. It spoils the argument.

As for my language choices, I believe I'll continue to write such letters as I see fit, thanks.

[rug]

33. Whew! I'd hate to be called complicit by you.

[MineralMan]

38. I would not call you anything.

I was speaking generally. If you meet the criteria, then you can judge for yourself or suggest another adjective in description. I do not know you at all. I see only what you post here.

[dimbear]

5. In a singular display of common sense, these priests are not allowed alone with children.

They must be accompanied by a responsible adult. Very good modification, IMHO. Reassuring to parents.

On the other hand, there is a simultaneous decline, actually a precipitous decline, in the willingness of Irish men to be priests.

Probably just another of the long long series of strange coincidences the Catholic Church is subject to.

[rug]

7. You wept?

[trotsky]

8. I have personally cried while watching a report about Catholic priests raping children...

and the church covering it up.

So yeah. I sure as hell hope it affects you too. Does it?

[rug]

18. Link or it didn't happen.

I can imagine you chortling with glee over an easy line of attack that supports your pre-existing bias against religion than I can imagine you personally crying.

A pattern of inserting pedophilia into an argument about religion that you're losing is dissonnant with your alleged tears.

To answer your question, I am angry and disgusted about the sex abuse and I have never "personally cried".

[trotsky]

24. Your personal attack on me is duly ignored.

A pattern of reminding people of the ONGOING abuses carried out by the institution of your church, which also works actively against many progressive issues, and which you continue to support with your time and money, and defend publicly? Guilty as charged.

But then, some atheists are ripping up photocopies of questionable bible verses - good thing we have you to bring us the important news.

[MineralMan]

9. I did. And so did an archbishop...on camera.

Don't you weep to think about children being sexually assaulted by people they are supposed to trust? If not, why not? After all, even Jesus wept, according to scripture.

Perhaps you have a problem with men weeping?

[rug]

20. I have seen archbishops weep over this.

Mainly because they're snagged square in the middle of it and are likely weeping for reasons other than you attribute.

You? I doubt it.

Nice stab, but I have no problem with men weeping. I have a problem with false melodrama on discussion boards when there are real people involved.

[MineralMan]

23. The archbishop in question from that 60 Minutes

report is not involved in any of the abuse. He's attempting to put the Church back on its tracks in Ireland. His tears were about a young person who described what had happened to him as a child. The archbishop could not talk about it without tears. As for your doubts about mine, you may think whatever you wish. You do not know me. Your imagination is a poor excuse for implying that I am a liar. Anyone who is not horrified and deeply saddened by the abuse and cover up for many many years by priests and the RCC hierarchy is a poor judge of people they con't know, I think.

For many, many Irish Catholics, as reported on 60 Minutes, their empathy with the victims and their disgust with the perpetrators and those who concealed their abuse is clear. They have left the Church, and rightly so. It has betrayed them. That's not melodrama, rug. Not melodrama in any way.

[trotsky]

25. False melodrama?

Are you accusing us of being liars?

[MineralMan]

27. It's not a direct accusation.

More of an implication. One is a personal attack. The other is just an implication of untruth. Moral, if not precise, equivalents. It's a fine line.

[rug]

30. In your case, I don't believe a word of it.

[trotsky]

34. That's too bad.

Because I honestly, sincerely, feel for all victims of sexual abuse.

I strongly resent your insinuation otherwise, but I understand that you simply cannot stop yourself from insulting me. You'll do it again with your response to this post.

[MineralMan]

36. Your belief is not required, and your disbelief

is irrelevant. You made the same implication about me. You were incorrect in doing so. It's exceedingly impolite to imply that someone is lying. That is not an honorable form of debate or discussion.

[cbayer]

11. This was a great piece.

I had missed it the first time around and am grateful to have seen it last night.

Such a personal and profound perspective from the archbishop and from members of the community.

I am hopeful that there are more like him. Bless him.

[MineralMan]

12. It may be too late, actually.

Attendance is down sharply. I'm not sure the Irish Catholics are in the mood for forgiveness in this case. When I heard that the molestations had continued through 2009, I was shocked. The Archbishop is a good guy, certainly, but I'm not sure that is enough. I would not forgive the Church if I were Irish. Not ever. Especially when the Vatican is so reticent about making real changes. They've apologized, but not effectively.

[cbayer]

13. I don't think it's not too late.

What came across to me was the profound feeling of betrayal.

While people have left the churches, there was no indication of what might be replacing them in these communities. Pubs have their role, the church has theirs.

The archbishop is not alone and people will come back when they feel they have true leadership they can trust. The church and the priest play too big a role in the community. His commitment to mending the wounds will prevail, imo.

But we shall see over time.

[MineralMan]

14. They may, as many Europeans have done,

simply not replace it with anything. The RCC has lost the people's trust, and lost trust is hard to regain. It's something like a cheating spouse who confesses and promises not to do that again. Rebuilding trust is very difficult, and often impossible. The betrayal runs very deep and strikes at people's children. Some may return. Others will not. They may replace the church with something completely non-religious, or may just become cynical altogether.

Sometimes, there is a point past which no recovery is possible.

[cleanhippie]

16. "A pox on those who cover up their sins and the sins of their minions!"

What about those that give their time, money, and support to keep this institution alive?

[MineralMan]

17. I can only say that I would never do such a thing.

But, that's just me.

[cleanhippie]

22. Come on, MM, you can do better than that.

[MineralMan]

29. Perhaps, but I shall not just now.

I can, however, say what I will and will not do. And what I will never do is knowingly provide support for any organization that covers up the sexual abuse of children. I can say that very emphatically. What others do is pretty much beyond my knowledge.

[cleanhippie]

37. I must admit how surpised I am.

Your apathy on this is contrary to your stances on most other subjects.

[MineralMan]

39. Apathy?

I don't think so. Perhaps you've mistaken me for someone else. Or, you may be misunderstanding my debate strategy here. We don't really know each other, after all.

[cleanhippie]

40. Yes, apathy.

ap·a·thy
? ?[ap-uh-thee] Show IPA
noun, plural ap·a·thies.
1. absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement.
2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.

In other topic areas, you are very vocal and take strong stands, yet here you are more "meh." IOW, apathetic. It's not an insult in any way, just my observation.

[MineralMan]

41. You and I take a different approach to disputes on DU.

I will not criticize your approach. I'd appreciate some reciprocity. We are on the same side.

[cleanhippie]

42. Fair enough.

[Warpy]

31. Funny you should mention that

Most of the atheists I know in real life are survivors of the Irish Catholic church and parochial schools, as am I. Sister Mary Torquemada was quite efficient when it came to dissuading us from taking our places on god's treadmill.

Irish atheists will still self identify as Catholic or Protestant because it was such a Big Deal for so very long, England wanting to destroy the threat a close island full of Papists presented, even though it never occurred to the Irish to go a-conquering and build an empire.

My own mother was a staunch Irish Catholic agnostic who believed in reincarnation. The last time she set foot in a church, the pastor dropped dead. True story, just thought I'd throw it in for effect.

I am happy at the erosion of power the church in Ireland has held for so many years, the gradual repudiation of its meddling in things that are none of its business like marriage, procreation, and divorce. This started long before the revelation that it's been an organized pedophile ring for decades and probably centuries, so that process should begin to accelerate. It's overdue.

Ireland deserves better.

[MineralMan]

35. Thanks for your insights.

Even though I am partly of Irish heritage, that side of my family never really discussed Ireland, and are from four generations ago. I met my Irish great-grandmother once. She was an immigrant. However, I was only 8 years old, and didn't carry on much of a conversation with her, I'm afraid. She died before I ever saw her again.

[onager]

43. Movie rec

On the broader theme of "Irish Catholicism," not just the latest scandal:

A Love Divided (1999)

Based on the true story of Sheila & Sean Cloney, a married couple living in an Irish village in the 1950's.

When their kids were born, the Cloneys signed a pledge that the kids would be sent to a Catholic school. But when that time came, Mrs. Cloney changed her mind and wanted to choose the school herself.

How the Church turns the village against Mrs. Cloney is fascinating and horrifying to watch. We see people who have grown up together and known each other all their lives suddenly at each other's throats.

I don't mean for this to sound like the movie is a one-note caricature. Characters are fully drawn and we understand their motivations, whether we agree with them or not. Even the motivations of the local priest, who believes "a deal is a deal."

Blatant Favoritism - this is one of the very, very few movies where a major character is a full "out" atheist and is presented sympathetically. He's a well-respected IRA veteran.

Oh, the Irish Church eventually admitted wrongdoing in the Cloney case...about 50 years after the fact.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0198668/