I’m a Mormon, Not a Christian

[cbayer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/opinion/im-a-mormon-not-a-christian.html?_r=2&hp
By DAVID V. MASON
Published: June 12, 2012

THANKS to Mitt Romney, a Broadway hit and a relentless marketing campaign by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormons seem to be everywhere

This is the so-called Mormon Moment: a strange convergence of developments offering Mormons hope that the Christian nation that persecuted, banished or killed them in the 19th century will finally love them as fellow Christians.

I want to be on record about this. I’m about as genuine a Mormon as you’ll find — a templegoer with a Utah pedigree and an administrative position in a congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am also emphatically not a Christian.

For the curious, the dispute can be reduced to Jesus. Mormons assert that because they believe Jesus is divine, they are Christians by default. Christians respond that because Mormons don’t believe — in accordance with the Nicene Creed promulgated in the fourth century — that Jesus is also the Father and the Holy Spirit, the Jesus that Mormons have in mind is someone else altogether. The Mormon reaction is incredulity. The Christian retort is exasperation. Rinse and repeat.

more at link

[Iggy]

1. The Incredulous Part is

southern evangelical uber Christians are going to vote for Rmoney.. considering (I'm sorry)
his phony religion. and the fact IMHO Joseph Smith was a charlatan of the first order.

obv Rmoney chose catholic Ryan to pander to these voters.. tho' unfortunately due to their
child predator/molester problems, the catholic church has little credibility these days.. so I'm not
sure how much actual traction Rmoney gets with this pick

[cbayer]

4. I don't think the Ryan pick is a problem because of the Catholic church's lack of

credibility.

I think the Ryan pick is a problem because Ryan is calling himself a Catholic, but is not recognizable as one to most Catholics.

[Iggy]

22. AGREED

Paulie is just one more typical politician... selling his soul to stay in office and keep collecting
the phat paycheck and bennies: first class health care for him and HIS family, shit end of the
stick for the rest of us.

he and the rest of the scammers are what I call "selectively" moral/ethical. they sadly think you
can just order up whatever morals you need on any particular dayto justify one's cruelty and
selfishness, and people will buy into it. it's weak, very weak.

[sabbat hunter]

5. is Mormonism really

any more of a phony religion than any other religion, just because it was founded in the 1800's rather than millenniums ago?

[cbayer]

6. What makes a religion phony?

Or not?

[dmallind]

7. That would be whether it can produce extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims or not, surely?

[cbayer]

9. Since that can't be done, then one with that definition would consider all religion phony.

If that is the position one comes from, then there is no point in trying to distinguish them at all.

And, therefore, nothing to discuss.

[cleanhippie]

16. Since that cannot be done, then all religions are equally phony (or not)

But rational humans require extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims.

Since none ha yet to provide any, there is nothing to discuss, other than why we need to give these extraordinarily lacking claims any reverence at all.

So let's discuss that, shall we?

[trotsky]

10. Why aren't you a Muslim?

Or a Hindu?

[Iggy]

20. Comparing Apples to Oranges

ever Wiki the Mormon leader/prophet Joseph Smith?? pls do so.

sorry, you can't compare charlatan Smith with Jesus Christ-- who unlike Smith, actually figures
very large in the Old Testament and of course the New Testament.

Joe Smith ain't in there-- so he invented some "holy tablets" with writing, that oddly, only HE
could read...WTF? why should I or anyone buy into this baloney?

Smith also claimed to have been visited by God's top angels.. given instructions, and other
malarkey. Sound familiar? I believe Charles Manson made similar claims.

Bottom line, Smith was run out of at least one town by the mob, and was killed by another
mob not long after. this is a legacy you build a "church" on? HAH HA HAH!!! right

[Karmasue]

25. Hmmmm...

Beliefs have been built on shifting sands before - and stood the test of time.

We cannot dismiss any religion as woo-woo, when scientific theories are consistently updated and revised based on new information. The lack of evolutionary intermediates provided just as shaky a legacy.

[Siwsan]

2. One of my favorite Quanah Parker quotes abour Christians

For anyone who is not familiar with Quanah Parker, he was the last of the great Comanche chiefs and one of the most fascinating people to ever walk the face of the earth. Quanah never 'converted' to christianity, and had five wives, so he seems a good fit to quote.

“The white man goes into his church and talks about Jesus,” Parker once said, “but the Indian goes into his tipi and talks to Jesus.”

[JoDog]

3. My roommate grew up

in Quanah, Texas. He thinks I should write a bio of the chief.

[ashling]

15. I was born in Henrietta, TX

Quanah visited there and stayed in the St. Elmo hotel there. His image is on one side of their centennial coin.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

8. Gandhi said something similar

Last edited Mon Aug 13, 2012, 12:13 PM - Edit history (1)

He said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

[trotsky]

13. No he (Gandhi) didn't. n/t

[Silent3]

23. Just a common false quote or false attribution then?

I've heard Gandhi quoted as having said that bit about Christ and Christians many time before.

[trotsky]

24. A little of both.

It's listed in the "disputed" section on his Wikiquote page.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi

[dmallind]

11. Oh great. More meaningless sophistry peddled as wisdom

with the usual basis that such can only ever come from non-DEWMs. What does this favorite quote mean in reality? What does it tell us about white men, red men, or Jesus and how is this meaning established and supported?

[cbayer]

12. What's a DEWM?

I looked it up on urbandictionary and found two definitions.

One is an alternate spelling for doom.

The other is a homophobic slur which I won't repeat here.

[trotsky]

14. Dead European White Males.

Your Google-fu needs work.

[Iggy]

21. Bingo! and the book on him

have you read it? it is over the top amazing.

Those Comanches were some tough hombre's... they loved torturing people.. particularly priests.

[dimbear]

17. "persecuted, banished, or killed them".................

Last edited Mon Aug 13, 2012, 06:36 PM - Edit history (1)

With all due respect, the quoted author has been reading too much 'history' written by Mormons. He or she should read at least once an objective history of the events. What one would see is much more like a small civil war with atrocities on both sides.



Edit: to clarify that I refer to the quoted author.

Thanks, cbayer, for catching that.

[cbayer]

18. I am assuming that you are responding to the article and not me.

[rug]

19. That's a good distinction.

From what I gather, Joseph Smith Jr.s own upbringing tended toward Universalism. His grandfather was a Universalist preacher named Asael Smith in Massachusetts.